Has the wearing of face masks become a left/right issue?

[MikeWM]

I would add that there are some on the left that strongly oppose masks - leftlockdownsceptics.com (which appears to be run by some rather hard-leftists) is running a series of articles at the moment on the subject. They do acknowledge that they are currently very much in the minority though.

eg.
https://leftlockdownsceptics.com/20...he-face-mask-part-2-the-politics-of-the-mask/

Just as the contemporary ‘Left’ has been smitten with lockdown, the curtailment of civil liberties, the expansion of state authoritarianism, and state and Big Tech censorship, it comes as no surprise that the Left is deeply in love with the mask. Every left-organised protest rally, against anything other than lockdown (which fully meets their support), now features masked (and dutifully socially-distanced) protestors. When the Left obsequiously wears the state-sanctioned mask at its public protests, this signals that the Left is fully compliant with official Covid propaganda and the hare-brained and damaging policy response that flows from it. These leftist rebels are missing the huge, elephant-sized, cause in the room – Covid hysteria and disastrous policy overreaction.

 

[bramling]

I would add that there are some on the left that strongly oppose masks - leftlockdownsceptics.com (which appears to be run by some rather hard-leftists) is running a series of articles at the moment on the subject. They do acknowledge that they are currently very much in the minority though.

eg.
https://leftlockdownsceptics.com/20...he-face-mask-part-2-the-politics-of-the-mask/

In my view, there has always been an element of the left who main agenda has merely been to be destructive. I'd very much include Khan in this, so it's no surprise to see he's such a fan of masks.

 

[MikeWM]

In my view, there has always been an element of the left who main agenda has merely been to be destructive. I'd very much include Khan in this, so it's no surprise to see he's such a fan of masks.

I do wonder if there is an element of glee in some on the left that see the recent success of an overbearing state succeeding in changing and micromanaging the behaviour of the population, and thinking that this power could therefore be used to implement (whatever cause they are promoting).

There have always been divides on the left between those who think we need a strong state in order to make people 'do the right thing', and those who think (or at least hope!) that people will pretty much 'do the right thing' anyway given a fair system to begin with.

Marx, interestingly, advocated a bit of both - in very simple terms the buildup of a strong state ('socialism') to put in place a 'fair' system, that could then wither away into a very small state indeed ('communism', ie. communes). Of course the (rather obvious) problem with that is that those who build up the state inevitably don't want to then give away that power!

 

[Cdd89]

To see an example of the non-totalitarian left, you need look no further than Lopez Obrador. There are very few federal measures, he did not personally push for a strong response, and they are practically the only country to have never imposed limitations on inbound international travel.

Interestingly he hasn’t come in for much international criticism; likely as he is a rather inconvenient example to many on the left who hailed him as a hero only a few years ago. It makes it all the more surprising that Corbyn went in for all this stuff; though given how comically often he was caught out for hypocrisy, my guess is he didn’t believe it and was just saying what his base wanted to hear.

 

[bramling]

I agree that many of those issues have been brewing for a long time and also that they're not an entirely British phenomenum (see my past rants about laissez-faire economics). It's just that the austeruty philosophy seemed particularly entrenched in a failing set of economic beliefs whilst offering absolutely nothing new or different to mitigate its effects.

I suspect in time history will see the Blair years as the start of all this. Blair was a skilled operator for sure, but it does seem that the central raison d'etre of the New Labour machine was finding ways to maximise vote take, which was carried out to ruthless extreme. I'm sure this was part of the rationale for devolution, as if we think back to the 1990s Scotland was a shoe-in for Labour (ironically Scotland is one of the things which is now screwing Labour, Blair didn't envisage the SNP's advance).

I do actually think Cameron / Osborne had creative ideas beyond Blair's effective gerrymandering of the country. Indeed, I'd say Osborne is the only chancellor since 1997 who has created budgets where I can think "oooh, there's a nice little nugget in there for me". Every single other has been looking to see where we get screwed over.

The relevance of all this to masks? We're back to a government where the over-riding raison d'etre is votes come what may. Hence why we have policies flip-flopping about all over the place. I'm not sure this government is necessarily ideologically authoritarian, just ideologically nasty and not worldly wise.

 

[greyman42]

The relevance of all this to masks? We're back to a government where the over-riding raison d'etre is votes come what may. Hence why we have policies flip-flopping about all over the place. I'm not sure this government is necessarily ideologically authoritarian, just ideologically nasty and not worldly wise.

Any party that thinks that masks and other such restrictions are vote winners are not living in the real world.

 

[bramling]

Any party that thinks that masks and other such restrictions are vote winners are not living in the real world.

I don't know, the vibe I pick up is that people love the idea of masks for *other* people.

Then there's the ones who want to whip this all up as they love the idea of their new lifestyle where they don't have to travel to work every day, though I think this group is quite concentrated (home counties). As you say, much of the population has been back in the real world for some while, but there's certainly still elements who aren't, and unfortunately these elements are quite loud about it.

 

[John Luxton]

but there's certainly still elements who aren't, and unfortunately these elements are quite loud about it.

Inflamed by certain press / media outlets.

Earlier today I saw on FB a headline from the Independent claiming a majority were in favour or a winter lockdown. However, after the headline the figure claimed 40%. Well in my book a majority would have to be at least 51% this at least 60% were against a winter lockdown. I know which headline I would have run. "Majority Against Winter Lockdown". But again a lefty paper stirring it up. The various regional web sites and local rags of Reach Plc are no better.

 

[greyman42]

Inflamed by certain press / media outlets.

Earlier today I saw on FB a headline from the Independent claiming a majority were in favour or a winter lockdown. However, after the headline the figure claimed 40%. Well in my book a majority would have to be at least 51% this at least 60% were against a winter lockdown. I know which headline I would have run. "Majority Against Winter Lockdown". But again a lefty paper stirring it up. The various regional web sites and local rags of Reach Plc are no better.

Even if there was a majority for a winter lockdown, there is no money to pay for it.
These awful people who want lockdowns must have no concern for the damage it would do to the peoples jobs/livelihoods and the economy?

 

[John Luxton]

Even if there was a majority for a winter lockdown, there is no money to pay for it.
These awful people who want lockdowns must have no concern for the damage it would do to the peoples jobs/livelihoods and the economy?

Quite agree.

As soon as the 2020 lockdown was announced along with the furlough scheme my alarm bells started ringing because of the financial implications for the economy and future tax bills. Having just retired all I could see was a bigger chunk of my pension being clawed back for the rest of my life to pay for it all.

As for the health implications - they never even crossed my mind.

Besides as someone who has dodged colds for 20+ years, not had the flu in my life time (no flu vax either btw), I didn't perceive Covid as a particular threat, and immediately decided to fight back and rebel.

It took me a month to two to realise there were others thinking the same and I have had quite a few fall outs even with people I have known for years due to my views.

 

[bramling]

Even if there was a majority for a winter lockdown, there is no money to pay for it.
These awful people who want lockdowns must have no concern for the damage it would do to the peoples jobs/livelihoods and the economy?

I'm not sure there has really been the money for pay for what we've had already, but that (unfortunately) didn't stop it.

It is, to me, beyond comprehension that furlough has only just ended. I was quite happy to have it as a bridge through the first lockdown, but that's as far as it should have gone.

Then there's the question of, if we were going to spend that amount of money, perhaps some of it might have been better directed towards a hypothecated "modifications to the health service to allow us to live with this going forward" fund.

 

[MikeWM]

Then there's the ones who want to whip this all up as they love the idea of their new lifestyle where they don't have to travel to work every day, though I think this group is quite concentrated (home counties). As you say, much of the population has been back in the real world for some while, but there's certainly still elements who aren't, and unfortunately these elements are quite loud about it.

Our place is trying to organise a Christmas party - and it looks like it will happen (if the Government don't lock us all down again) - but it is noticeable how many people are voicing reservations or concerns about the idea. I do wonder how many of them have been in a fairly large gathering of people *at all* since March 2020, and indeed whether they ever plan to do so again.

There is little evidence of this attitude in the 'real world' though, which in my experience has seen a 'normal' number of people out-and-about for months now, and if it wasn't for the masks and endless signage, would feel pretty much entirely normal.

 

[hst43102]

As soon as the 2020 lockdown was announced along with the furlough scheme my alarm bells started ringing because of the financial implications for the economy and future tax bills. Having just retired all I could see was a bigger chunk of my pension being clawed back for the rest of my life to pay for it all.

Although I absolutely agree with what you're saying here, you are still one of the lucky ones in this situation. Younger people like myself are going to be paying this whole mess off for the rest of our lives.

 

[John Luxton]

Although I absolutely agree with what you're saying here, you are still one of the lucky ones in this situation. Younger people like myself are going to be paying this whole mess off for the rest of our lives.

You might be lucky by the time you retire they may have paid it all off.

What is even more narksome is that NI is going to also increase.

Though I retired at 60 I am still having to pay NI until April 2025 to get a full state pension later that year.

The state should not have got the country into so much debt. Call be old school - but you don't borrow what you can't afford and they did.

Now we have situation where a percentage of the population have rather gotten to like Furlough and just keep thinking money grows on trees so why not have another lockdown!

 

[Cowley]

I think we’re probably done with this discussion as it’s run its course and the discussions around austerity etc would be better in either a new thread (if someone wants to start one), or one of the existing ones about Labour and Conservative here:

When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

We've had threads "burying" Labour and the LibDems, but when will the Conservative demise be? Which of the icebergs over the horizon will be the one to sink PM Johnson? They've just lost two by-elections in a row where they were favourites to win - the huge attention paid to Hartlepool meant we...

www.railforums.co.uk

Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

A only slightly tongue in cheek plagiarisation of @Butts thread on the Lib Dems May's elections for various offices in the whole of Great Britain, saw this once great Party standing on the edge of the abyss and becoming if it is not already an irrelevance. Behind SNP and Tories in Scotland...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks all.