Has this ballast at Moulsecoomb had it?

[trainmania100]

Was out earlier at Moulsecoomb, and saw this compacted, mossy ballast. It's not just here, though, it's filthy at London Road (Brighton) as well.

At what point would ballast be considered life expired and need replacing?

It's been like this for months, if not several years now.

 

[zwk500]

That ballast would definitely need renewing. It's clearly not doing it's job of draining the track. I'm not sure how regularly the top ballast gets renewed, it'll vary according to use/track specification.

In general ballast can be taken away, cleaned up and reused in another application. The level of growth on this ballast may not allow that to happen on this occasion.

 

[td97]

Yes the ballast is in poor condition and should not have vegetation growth.

At what point would ballast be considered life expired and need replacing? It's been like this for months, if not several years now.

It's not a set timescale. Possibly if there was a particular issue identified e.g. drainage not functioning correctly/flooding or poor track quality from NMT recordings.

 

[nlogax]

From this angle it also like those sleepers are slewed, something I also see a lot of on sections of the SWML. Wonder how long that ballast + track combination has been there?

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s not in the prime of its life, but I’ve seen much, much worse on much busier lines.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Until it was re-ballasted a few years ago, Sutton was notorious for a fine collection of toadstools growing on the track...

 

[ASharpe]

It was always noticeable at my local station Shipley (platform 3 in particular) where the spilled diesel from pacers nodding in to stop had cleaned up the ballast.

Is 3rd rail a bit prone to plant/algae growth?

 

[DJ_K666]

That whole line is like it. You should see the track out of Lewes towards Brighton. You can't even see the ballast for greenery.

 

[Carlisle]

That whole line is like it. You should see the track out of Lewes towards Brighton. You can't even see the ballast for greenery.

There’s probably significantly less chemical weed killers used on railways nowadays .

 

[DJ_K666]

There’s probably significantly less chemical weed killers used on railways nowadays .

Yeah. There was one that was really nasty that I don't think gets used nowadays.

 

[david1212]

Yeah. There was one that was really nasty that I don't think gets used nowadays.

Or rephrased maybe
Yeah. There was one that really worked well and reasonably priced that I don't think gets used nowadays.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yeah. There was one that was really nasty that I don't think gets used nowadays.

Would that be DDT?

 

[Pinus contorta]

Would that be DDT?

Herbicides containing dioxin is / was the really nasty ones.

 

[Recessio]

It’s not in the prime of its life, but I’ve seen much, much worse on much busier lines.

Especially during Network Southeast! The last years of the Wimbledon-West Croydon line looked like a jungle...

 

[Pigeon]

This thread reminds me of the suggestion ages ago in the Daedalus section of the Ariadne column in the back of the New Scientist, of a train that fuelled itself as it went along by mowing grass growing in the four-foot. So I dug up some figures for typical photosynthetic conversion efficiency from somewhere or other and it turns out that it can actually just about work. I had to include a method of burning it in an internal combustion engine to get the process efficient enough, and you'd not be running any kind of intensive service, but the kind of minor branch that gets one unit or auto-train doing three return trips a day could do it, and of course if you have the grass growing outside the rails as well you get a proportionate improvement.

My own idea is to look at plants that naturally grow in stony places with no soil and see if you can find any with the right kind of root systems to improve the quality of the ballast rather than ruining it. Then you could seed the tracks with it and have self-maintaining ballast which doesn't need weedkilling and looks pretty too.

 

[2192]

Especially during Network Southeast! The last years of the Wimbledon-West Croydon line looked like a jungle...

There wasn't much point in spending money on the track if it was all going to get ripped up and replaced by tram lines and altered stations.

 

[Trackbedjolly]

It is not really possible to tell what the ballast condition is like from looking at the top surface. The need to replace or clean ballast is done by checking the condition below the sleepers. It is obvious that there is a drainage issue and may be some level of contamination of the ballast in the photographed area; however the term 'dirty ballast' is a phrase which refers to the degree of degradation of the pieces of stone not what may be lurking between the stones.

 

[Recessio]

There wasn't much point in spending money on the track if it was all going to get ripped up and replaced by tram lines and altered stations.

Even some fairly secure lines were looking rough towards the end too.

Interestingly, there's vegetation growing near the buffer stops at the London Bridge terminus platforms - but on the train/country side of the buffer stops. Surprised they haven't fished it out already.

 

[najaB]

Yeah. There was one that really worked well and reasonably priced that I don't think gets used nowadays

Often the cheap alternative has a greater cost.

E.g. Lead was a cheap anti-knock agent in petrol, but it's use poisoned generations of children.

 

[hwl]

Would that be DDT?

2,4,5-Trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (also known as 2,4,5-T), the problem is during production you get a small amount of contamination with 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD), which is really really nasty hence the ban.

 

[InOban]

Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane is DDT and it's an insecticide, not a herbicide.

I think that 2,4,5,T was the selective weedkiller we used to use on our lawn, when we bothered about such things.

 

[AlexNL]

Have you considered reporting this to Network Rail directly? You can find their contact information, including a web form where you can upload pictures, here.

It's very likely that they're aware already (the railway network should receive regular inspection) but one more report can't hurt.

 

[trainmania100]

Have you considered reporting this to Network Rail directly? You can find their contact information, including a web form where you can upload pictures, here.

It's very likely that they're aware already (the railway network should receive regular inspection) but one more report can't hurt.

It's ok Ive already reported it a few weeks ago.

Would be nice to see the high output ballast cleaner along here, surely a more viable option than manually doing it as prev posters say, it's not just here it's the full line mostly

 

[zwk500]

It's ok Ive already reported it a few weeks ago.

Would be nice to see the high output ballast cleaner along here, surely a more viable option than manually doing it as prev posters say, it's not just here it's the full line mostly

I'm not sure the HOBC would physically fit behind the pointwork at Brighton station throat to reverse. You could do it with a shunt at Lewes but then you've got to go all the way back once you've finished one line, which will take time. Is the HOBC regularly used on 3rd rail areas?

 

[trainmania100]

I'm not sure the HOBC would physically fit behind the pointwork at Brighton station throat to reverse. You could do it with a shunt at Lewes but then you've got to go all the way back once you've finished one line, which will take time. Is the HOBC regularly used on 3rd rail areas?

Not really but it was used for several weeks along the Arun valley and Brighton mainline at Gatwick

 

[hwl]

I'm not sure the HOBC would physically fit behind the pointwork at Brighton station throat to reverse. You could do it with a shunt at Lewes but then you've got to go all the way back once you've finished one line, which will take time. Is the HOBC regularly used on 3rd rail areas?

There is a one adapted for 3rd rail that is more of a medium output compared to the non 3rd rail versions.

 

[zwk500]

There is a one adapted for 3rd rail that is more of a medium output compared to the non 3rd rail versions.

thanks, didn't know that! Is it a shorter length than the standard one (I think c.800m?)

 

[Bald Rick]

thanks, didn't know that! Is it a shorter length than the standard one (I think c.800m?)

the cleaner itself is only a fraction if that; what takes the length is the wagons. You can, in theory, have shorter formations, but it rather defeats the object.

 

[hwl]

thanks, didn't know that! Is it a shorter length than the standard one (I think c.800m?)

More the case that the 3rd rail gets in the way of some of the machinery (as with tampers etc.) so the (hourly) work rate is a bit lower.

 

[trainmania100]

Some photos from twitter of the flooding at Moulsecoomb today, although probably not as big as some other parts of the network

https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/1742956370775646413

I post this though because the condition of the ballast is crap. I've reported this to NR in the last and possibly posted pictures on here before, - ah yes I have - 2 years ago, weedy compacted, and likely poor draining ballast :

Has this ballast at Moulsecoomb had it?

Was out earlier at Moulsecoomb, and saw this compacted, mossy ballast. It's not just here, though, it's filthy at London Road (Brighton) as well. At what point would ballast be considered life expired and need replacing? It's been like this for months, if not several years now.

www.railforums.co.uk

So it's hardly surprising the track has flooded.