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Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

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JohnMcL7

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I am saying that EVs will not make any difference from the status quo.

If as in other countries the UK put in a genuine effort for walking, cycling & public transport it would be transformative.
That is the point I'm making though, because electric cars are seen as such a great solution and good for the environment people can change to electric cars guilt free and nothing changes. If electric cars didn't exist at all then more people would be likely to consider other forms of transport and in turn there would be more support to invest in walking, cycling, public transport etc. As I've mentioned a few times what I find concerning is the number of people promoting buying an electric car because you can use it for short frequent trips into town and similar. I'm already seeing cases where the focus has been on getting more people to cycle and instead give up on that and focus on getting people to buy electric cars instead which is immensely frustrating.
 
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reddragon

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If I drive to the station & back it costs me <10p in electric, nowt in the summer but I have to pay £6.50 to park

If I could cycle at least in the summer, I would, but there is no safe or secure bike parking so I don't.

That is the question, EVs will not greatly replace public transport anymore than now.
 

JohnMcL7

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That's a different question to the one I was interpreting the thread title as, it's not that I think electric cars will change the current balance of car/walk/cycle etc. but the effect they've have on the future balance. If electric cars didn't exist then with rising fuel costs then potentially may consider not using a car but now they have the option of an electric car that they can use guilt free and think they're being green about it that potential for non-car transport is lost. That is my big problem with electric cars and I do very much agree with the OP that they're being oversold because they're seen as this great all encompassing solution when in reality they maintain almost all the problems with current cars.
 

trebor79

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I wonder if electric cars might actually *reduce* traffic over time and increase use of public transport.
Let's face it, they are much more expensive than comparable ICE vehicles and I seriously doubt electricity will remain as cheap as it is long term. And the tax burden that is currently on petrol and diesel will be transferred either to road tolling or electricity, or some combination. In 5 or 10 years time I don't expect there to be any fuel savings at all from using an electric car.
Basically, it's going to be more expensive to own a car, and there won't be any running cost savings that are currently enjoyed.

I think we could see a huge increase in car clubs, flexible vehicle rental and that sort of thing. If autonomous vehicles really do become a thing, then it's not too fanciful to imagine booking one a car from a local car club, driving it to the station and getting on my train. The car then drives itself back to it's parking spot, or perhaps a different one, ready for the next pick up. Upon my return, I book a car to be waiting for me at the station.
Most of us don't actually need 2 cars sat on the drive 95% of the time, we just want a car to be available when we need it. People are going to think much harder about that when the depreciation or monthly lease fee is double what it is today.
 

reddragon

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One thing an EV does well at versus an ICE is that it makes car clubs easy.

A car parked up, plugged into a charger is always ready to go with minimal servicing or checks required. Is that 'public' transport?
 

Bletchleyite

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One thing an EV does well at versus an ICE is that it makes car clubs easy.

A car parked up, plugged into a charger is always ready to go with minimal servicing or checks required. Is that 'public' transport?

It probably sits in the same "sort of" hybrid as a taxi. Sometimes a private vehicle, whether driven by yourself or someone else, is necessary.

Certainly the ease of use of car clubs are one way to help reduce car ownership as opposed to simply use.
 

reddragon

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It probably sits in the same "sort of" hybrid as a taxi. Sometimes a private vehicle, whether driven by yourself or someone else, is necessary.

Certainly the ease of use of car clubs are one way to help reduce car ownership as opposed to simply use.
As 95% of cars spend 95% of the time parked, car ownership reduction alone clears streets of clutter.

Also by removing car ownership the choice of travel options moves in favour of public transport as simple journey costs will be more expensive in the car.

Todays priority is to get the switch from ICE to EV, the car clubs should follow as part of it!
 

AM9

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I wonder if electric cars might actually *reduce* traffic over time and increase use of public transport.
Let's face it, they are much more expensive than comparable ICE vehicles and I seriously doubt electricity will remain as cheap as it is long term. And the tax burden that is currently on petrol and diesel will be transferred either to road tolling or electricity, or some combination. In 5 or 10 years time I don't expect there to be any fuel savings at all from using an electric car.
Basically, it's going to be more expensive to own a car, and there won't be any running cost savings that are currently enjoyed. ...
I think that replacing IC vehicles with EVs will reduce the number of cars on the road but not the traffic. The number of two-car families will be drastically reduced at first because of the higher acquisition cost, however the cost of using those fewer cars will be far lower than for ICVs resulting in them being used for many shorter journeys. When road charging is fully in place, they will be cheaper to run than ICVs as hydrocarbon fuel will still have a duty placed on it in order to flush them off the roads in a shorter time.
I can't see any disincentive to running EVs from electricity being applied as if marketed properly, intelligent charging will help DNOs (and the ESO, National Grid) to reduce the amount of infrastructure investment needed. Once EVs can be used as domestic power storage devices, that will not only reduce peak demand for electricity, but spur the taking up of split tariffs and domestic solar generation.
As far as walking and cycling goes, the improved environment at street level will encourage walking in towns and city centres even more than ULEZ/Congestion Zone schermes.
 

jon0844

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That's a different question to the one I was interpreting the thread title as, it's not that I think electric cars will change the current balance of car/walk/cycle etc. but the effect they've have on the future balance. If electric cars didn't exist then with rising fuel costs then potentially may consider not using a car but now they have the option of an electric car that they can use guilt free and think they're being green about it that potential for non-car transport is lost. That is my big problem with electric cars and I do very much agree with the OP that they're being oversold because they're seen as this great all encompassing solution when in reality they maintain almost all the problems with current cars.

The obvious problem is that they take up the same space on a road, or when parked, but they are a cleaner method of transport in a town or city (assuming you charge with green energy) and are likely to be LOADS more reliable than an ICE car. Over time, very little needs to be done on an EV so the ongoing maintenance costs are going to be low. At the end of their life, almost everything can be recycled (and will, as there are going to be loads of new jobs in this sector to do just that).

Of course the industry will find ways to make you still need to pay a fortune. Many issues with EVs won't be the drivetrain but the electronics, with sensors or screens failing etc. Expensive repairs of what will actually be cheap components (and easy and quick to swap out) because they'll make it expensive.

The industry does of course want to try and hide all the extra costs, by introducing car subscriptions. Just pay £200-300 a month for the rest of your life by DD and swap and change vehicle every few years. Want a better spec? Just pay £50 to unlock the heated seats for 3 months. More range? Unlock the 20% of the battery the ECU was locking out.. another £50 please.

Of course EVs are going to be full of gotchas in the future, but they're still the future and people won't give up their cars. I do expect the Chinese to import far cheaper, and more simple, EVs in the coming years and the costs to plummet. Smart buyers will look at these and avoid the big car makers wanting to charge you for anything and everything, and do without some creature comforts for the commute/school run. They'll almost be a small step up from an electric bike, capable of coping with all weathers and carrying more than one person or some luggage/shopping.

Today the industry seems to be more interested in high-end EVs but that's going to change big time. When smaller cars come, that alone might help encourage people to only use them for essential runs and public transport for longer journeys.
 

Bald Rick

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The number of two-car families will be drastically reduced at first because of the higher acquisition cost,

I don’t think that’s right, and certainly isn’t the experience round here. Whilst the cars are more expensive if you are buying in full, on PCP / lease deals (which most EV people that I know are doing) they are typically a similar price as ICE equivalents or even cheaper. And noNe of the dozen or so people I know who has bought an EV has reduced the number of vehicles in their ownership.
 

ABB125

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And noNe of the dozen or so people I know who has bought an EV has reduced the number of vehicles in their ownership.
My dad has reduced the number of vehicles in his ownership following the purchase lease of a electric (well, hybrid!) car. From 6 to 5! :D:D

(Yes I know you don't know my dad!)
 

AM9

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I don’t think that’s right, and certainly isn’t the experience round here. Whilst the cars are more expensive if you are buying in full, on PCP / lease deals (which most EV people that I know are doing) they are typically a similar price as ICE equivalents or even cheaper. And noNe of the dozen or so people I know who has bought an EV has reduced the number of vehicles in their ownership.
I would agree for areas such as ours but across the nation, owning or running two EVs would, I think be less than households running a medium price car and an almost life-expired car (think typically a 6-8 year old Leaf).
 

reddragon

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Did you know that the MG5 EV estate car is better and/or CHEAPER than the VW, Skoda and Ford equivalents? Even cheaper than an equivalent Vauxhall Astra estate!

That's new OTR prices with equivalent specs / space / performances etc

Yes the EV is cheaper than any equivalent estate car!
 

trebor79

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Did you know that the MG5 EV estate car is better and/or CHEAPER than the VW, Skoda and Ford equivalents? Even cheaper than an equivalent Vauxhall Astra estate!

That's new OTR prices with equivalent specs / space / performances etc

Yes the EV is cheaper than any equivalent estate car!
Shush, don't let the cat out of the bag!
I'm having a 24 hour test of both the MG5 and new long range ZS, one today and one next week. I found it hard to fault the 5 on a short test drive last month, just that very wide centre console I don't really like, particularly where it curves into the area my knee naturally wants to rest.
 

reddragon

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Shush, don't let the cat out of the bag!
I'm having a 24 hour test of both the MG5 and new long range ZS, one today and one next week. I found it hard to fault the 5 on a short test drive last month, just that very wide centre console I don't really like, particularly where it curves into the area my knee naturally wants to rest.
Shh don't tell anyone but due to really low depreciation and 0% interest the PCP payments are cheaper without a deposit than the oil alternative with a sizable deposit! And the MG ZS EV is also cheaper than anything in its class including oil burners, actually half the price of any comparable electric SUV!

Don't tell anyone but I took my new MG5 to Wales for lunch in freezing temperatures on the motorway for a test drive and it cost me under £2, plus lunch was £40 cheaper than walking to the local pub :) Worse still, it didn't run out of charge even after being stuck on the M4 for an hour in traffic after an incident. Oh no!
 

DustyBin

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Did you know that the MG5 EV estate car is better and/or CHEAPER than the VW, Skoda and Ford equivalents? Even cheaper than an equivalent Vauxhall Astra estate!

That's new OTR prices with equivalent specs / space / performances etc

Yes the EV is cheaper than any equivalent estate car!

But it feels cheap and has rubbish driving dynamics (just like it's IC equivalent). I know you really like the MG5 but it isn't a "better" car than the competition, it's a cheaper car that offers great value for money if all you want is A to B transport. There's nothing wrong with that at all, horses for courses!
 

jon0844

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I've been watching some reviews of the new MG on YouTube (the SUV not the new estate coming next year) and it doesn't seem bad for the money. Seems to drive okay even on bumpy B roads, and while the sport mode may not be up to much - I'd expect many buyers to be using the eco mode anyway, which will limit power to keep it more in check.

The best thing is that this car will continue to force the incumbent car makers to build cheaper cars, without compromising on features. If they don't, China will take over.
 

DustyBin

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I've been watching some reviews of the new MG on YouTube (the SUV not the new estate coming next year) and it doesn't seem bad for the money. Seems to drive okay even on bumpy B roads, and while the sport mode may not be up to much - I'd expect many buyers to be using the eco mode anyway, which will limit power to keep it more in check.

The best thing is that this car will continue to force the incumbent car makers to build cheaper cars, without compromising on features. If they don't, China will take over.

I agree, we need lower cost models from the likes of BMW, Ford, VAG, even Tesla. They're unlikely to match MG for price but they need to close the gap. You can buy two MG5s for the price of a Ford Mach-E or BMW i4 (admittedly VW have a lower cost model in the ID.3 already). The established manufacturers have started with premium EVs but the technology will filter down through their respective ranges I'm sure.
 

reddragon

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But it feels cheap and has rubbish driving dynamics (just like it's IC equivalent). I know you really like the MG5 but it isn't a "better" car than the competition, it's a cheaper car that offers great value for money if all you want is A to B transport. There's nothing wrong with that at all, horses for courses!
Whilst I agree that it is low end on detail / ride having been in pretty much every competitors car, driven many it isn't as far off as you want to make it sound!

Ignoring a few basic such as finish / style choices, things like space, usability, drivability etc goes (which is what a non car enthusiast looks at) it out does all ICE estate cars due to internal space / extras and out does many of the EVs built on ICE platforms with cramped interiors.

For me those that beat it are just EVs which were Polestar, Tesla, Mach-E, EV6, IONIQ5, Enyaq. But these are twice the price of an MG with, exc the Tesla, no more range!
Sadly even the VWs which are very good have similar internal build qualities for a lot more money!

The Audi / BMW / PSA group etc are ICE based and very cramped with transmission tunnels etc Only a dedicated ICE platform really works

I know that you are a car enthusiast and a Taycan, Rimac or Tesla Plaid would suit you, but normals want a car that gets you from A to B and MG currently wins that crown hands down!
 

DustyBin

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Whilst I agree that it is low end on detail / ride having been in pretty much every competitors car, driven many it isn't as far off as you want to make it sound!

Ignoring a few basic such as finish / style choices, things like space, usability, drivability etc goes (which is what a non car enthusiast looks at) it out does all ICE estate cars due to internal space / extras and out does many of the EVs built on ICE platforms with cramped interiors.

For me those that beat it are just EVs which were Polestar, Tesla, Mach-E, EV6, IONIQ5, Enyaq. But these are twice the price of an MG with, exc the Tesla, no more range!
Sadly even the VWs which are very good have similar internal build qualities for a lot more money!

The Audi / BMW / PSA group etc are ICE based and very cramped with transmission tunnels etc Only a dedicated ICE platform really works

I know that you are a car enthusiast and a Taycan, Rimac or Tesla Plaid would suit you, but normals want a car that gets you from A to B and MG currently wins that crown hands down!

I actually agree with you; as per my subsequent post other manufacturers need to offer alternatives that aren't twice the price or risk losing a huge market share.

Incidentally I find it very interesting that Toyota continue to insist that EVs aren't the future.... They're brave I'll give them that!
 

reddragon

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I actually agree with you; as per my subsequent post other manufacturers need to offer alternatives that aren't twice the price or risk losing a huge market share.

Incidentally I find it very interesting that Toyota continue to insist that EVs aren't the future.... They're brave I'll give them that!
The basics of chemistry, physics and economics will tell you that Hydrogen will never work in a car; probably not in a bus / HGV; will be beaten with short charge OLE section for battery trains and will never be accepted in a plane!

That leaves ships then!
 

DustyBin

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The basics of chemistry, physics and economics will tell you that Hydrogen will never work in a car; probably not in a bus / HGV; will be beaten with short charge OLE section for battery trains and will never be accepted in a plane!

That leaves ships then!

Do Toyota build ships? :D
 

reddragon

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As the MG5 is so new few have needed servicing. Someone on the MG forum has finally had a 1st service.

As it was under 10k miles the cost was £23.20 including wash & clean!
 

Bletchleyite

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As the MG5 is so new few have needed servicing. Someone on the MG forum has finally had a 1st service.

As it was under 10k miles the cost was £23.20 including wash & clean!

Must admit I find it a shame that you say the dash is curved towards the left knee, as it pretty certainly means one won't be an option for me. I think the SUV looks cheap, but the classic estate looks a good car.
 

trebor79

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Must admit I find it a shame that you say the dash is curved towards the left knee, as it pretty certainly means one won't be an option for me. I think the SUV looks cheap, but the classic estate looks a good car.
I think it was me that said that.
The ZS I'm trying now has the same sort of centre console design and I didn't notice it to the same extent - adjusting the seat height might solve it. I will investigate when I try the MG5 again next week.
Try one and see what you think.

I quite like them both TBH. The ZS has a nice panoramic roof and better centre display and software. The 5 is cheaper, a little bit quicker and more efficient, not as dowdy in the metal as it looks in photos but has a distinctly "last generation" sat nav (though you can use android auto/appl car play). The 5 also doesn't have any app connectivity for pre conditioning, checking the charge state etc but I'm not really sure how much of an issue that really is as resistive heating is pretty instant.
 

EssexGonzo

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But it feels cheap and has rubbish driving dynamics (just like it's IC equivalent). I know you really like the MG5 but it isn't a "better" car than the competition, it's a cheaper car that offers great value for money if all you want is A to B transport. There's nothing wrong with that at all, horses for courses!

Whilst I agree that it is low end on detail / ride having been in pretty much every competitors car, driven many it isn't as far off as you want to make it sound!

Ignoring a few basic such as finish / style choices, things like space, usability, drivability etc goes (which is what a non car enthusiast looks at) it out does all ICE estate cars due to internal space / extras and out does many of the EVs built on ICE platforms with cramped interiors.

For me those that beat it are just EVs which were Polestar, Tesla, Mach-E, EV6, IONIQ5, Enyaq. But these are twice the price of an MG with, exc the Tesla, no more range!
Sadly even the VWs which are very good have similar internal build qualities for a lot more money!

The Audi / BMW / PSA group etc are ICE based and very cramped with transmission tunnels etc Only a dedicated ICE platform really works

I know that you are a car enthusiast and a Taycan, Rimac or Tesla Plaid would suit you, but normals want a car that gets you from A to B and MG currently wins that crown hands down!

I have seen a few of these knocking about now. Whilst I agree about the quality and slightly ungainly design, I admire this model for a couple of reasons.

The first is price, obviously. You can’t really argue with it. Whilst the feel and quality is a bit below par, the price is VERY below par.

Secondly, they’re only one of two EV estates on the market right now (I think). The other is the Porsche Taycan at 4 to 5 times the cost, with very little extra range. That these two cars are NOT SUVs is to be applauded.
 

Bletchleyite

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Secondly, they’re only one of two EV estates on the market right now (I think). The other is the Porsche Taycan at 4 to 5 times the cost, with very little extra range. That these two cars are NOT SUVs is to be applauded.

I'm sure BMW, Merc and Volvo will be along with traditional estates in due course (as they still sell plenty), though obviously those will not be at or anywhere near the budget end unlike the MG.

I would also be surprised not to see an "e-Astra" from Vauxhall, plus as that's now PSA a Pug and Citroen badged version. Though obviously that is a smaller estate. And similarly an e-Focus from Ford, as the e-Kuga is I believe already in the works and it is the same platform.
 

reddragon

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I'm sure BMW, Merc and Volvo will be along with traditional estates in due course (as they still sell plenty), though obviously those will not be at or anywhere near the budget end unlike the MG.

I would also be surprised not to see an "e-Astra" from Vauxhall, plus as that's now PSA a Pug and Citroen badged version. Though obviously that is a smaller estate. And similarly an e-Focus from Ford, as the e-Kuga is I believe already in the works and it is the same platform.
The problem with the Vauxhall / PSA cars is that they are ICE based so very cramped inside.
 

Bletchleyite

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The problem with the Vauxhall / PSA cars is that they are ICE based so very cramped inside.

The thing is that people get attached to particular models, so really don't care. Lots of people go through their whole life always buying Astras or Focuses, so an EV is a natural progression. They care not for improvements, only for continuity.
 
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