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Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

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reddragon

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The thing is that people get attached to particular models, so really don't care. Lots of people go through their whole life always buying Astras or Focuses, so an EV is a natural progression. They care not for improvements, only for continuity.
I am very bad a brand loyalty! Now on 4th car make, 6th model type!
I shop in most supermarkets, several independents and a market depending on who offers what I want.

I go on what is best at the time for me.

The EV switch has caused the greatest brand loyalty switch since the Jap cars arrived!
 
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jon0844

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I can't see Volvo doing cheap EVs since they pretty much decided to get out of the small car market (that is Focus sized cars, not Fiesta/KA style). They ditched the V40 and V50 and while they have the XC40 or whatever the EV one is called, they're far from cheap.

They are now a Chinese car maker building Swedish designed cars for sale in the US. Any sales elsewhere seem like a bonus, and it's a shame as I've got no desire to look at the 60-90 range or get a jacked up 40 series that is also massively jacked up price wise.

I do hope Ford and the like are more sensible and seek a wider audience and realise people are crying out for affordable EVs, including ultra minis for those short city drives when a bike isn't practical or wanted.
 

reddragon

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I can't see Volvo doing cheap EVs since they pretty much decided to get out of the small car market (that is Focus sized cars, not Fiesta/KA style). They ditched the V40 and V50 and while they have the XC40 or whatever the EV one is called, they're far from cheap.

They are now a Chinese car maker building Swedish designed cars for sale in the US. Any sales elsewhere seem like a bonus, and it's a shame as I've got no desire to look at the 60-90 range or get a jacked up 40 series that is also massively jacked up price wise.

I do hope Ford and the like are more sensible and seek a wider audience and realise people are crying out for affordable EVs, including ultra minis for those short city drives when a bike isn't practical or wanted.
I found the Volvo EV very disappointing, dull and outclassed.
 

jon0844

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I found the Volvo EV very disappointing, dull and outclassed.

Just as I've been more interested in the phones coming out from the likes of Xiaomi, BBK (Oppo, OnePlus, Realme etc) and now Honor coming back, so too am I more interested in what's coming from China for the car market in the coming years.

China will do what Japan did in the 80s, and once again shame the incumbents. Of course there's going to be people not wanting to be seen in a Chinese car (maybe for branding or perhaps political reasons) but the smart money will be on them all day long.

Maybe Volvo will realise this, but I suppose Geely may intend to sell cheaper EVs under another brand it owns, or maybe launches.
 

trebor79

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But it feels cheap and has rubbish driving dynamics (just like it's IC equivalent). I know you really like the MG5 but it isn't a "better" car than the competition, it's a cheaper car that offers great value for money if all you want is A to B transport. There's nothing wrong with that at all, horses for courses!
Well having had the ZS overnight we've now got an MG5 to try.
Have to say it's very comfortable and soaks up potholes and poor road surfaces very well. Probably because it has relatively small wheels with proper tyres rather than massive wheels with a smear of rubber round the rim which seems to be the latest fashion.
So it might roll a bit if you throw it into corners, but it's meant to be a family car, not a hot hatch.
That said, mash the throttle pulling away from a roundabout on the A11 and it'll outrun most other cars.

Even my wife has changed from "Both our cars work, we don't need a new one" to discussing finances and comparing the models.
Her verdict "There's nothing to dislike" about either of these cars. I think that sums it up quite nicely.
Fundamentally, SAIC who own MG are probably the biggest manufacturer of electric cars in the world largest electric car market. Why wouldn't they be decent?

There's more brands and models coming from China and I think the traditional western brands are going to get a shock.
Check out the Ora Cat, coming in 2022. Cheap, well specced, decent range and it even looks as good as anything from a bigger brand. A hint of Porsche in the front end? That'll be because it was designed by someone who used to design cars for Porsche.
 
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Bald Rick

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Check out the Ora Cat, coming in 2022. Cheap, well specced, decent range and it even looks as good as anything from a bigger brand. A hint of Porsche in the front end? That'll be because it was designed by someone who used to design cars for Porsche.

Looks more Beetle-y to me, but same thing...
 

DustyBin

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I loved my V50 T5 (based on Focus platform with RS engine at the time) and my parents have an XC90 mild hybrid that is like a cruise liner on wheels.

It was actually the ST engine (I’m not trying to be pedantic for the sake of it, they are different).

Well having had the ZS overnight we've now got an MG5 to try.
Have to say it's very comfortable and soaks up potholes and poor road surfaces very well. Probably because it has relatively small wheels with proper tyres rather than massive wheels with a smear of rubber round the rim which seems to be the latest fashion.
So it might roll a bit if you throw it into corners, but it's meant to be a family car, not a hot hatch.
That said, mash the throttle pulling away from a roundabout on the A11 and it'll outrun most other cars.

Even my wife has changed from "Both our cars work, we don't need a new one" to discussing finances and comparing the models.
Her verdict "There's nothing to dislike" about either of these cars. I think that sums it up quite nicely.
Fundamentally, SAIC who own MG are probably the biggest manufacturer of electric cars in the world largest electric car market. Why wouldn't they be decent?

There's more brands and models coming from China and I think the traditional western brands are going to get a shock.
Check out the Ora Cat, coming in 2022. Cheap, well specced, decent range and it even looks as good as anything from a bigger brand. A hint of Porsche in the front end? That'll be because it was designed by someone who used to design cars for Porsche.

As a petrol head (or should that now be “car person” :D) I’m unlikely to ever share your enthusiasm for these Chinese cars, but I don’t dispute that they have no real competition at present in terms of value for money.

I’m still no further on with my own new car search, part of me thinks make the switch now and go for a Mach-E (and pretend it’s a Mustang ;)) or do the right thing and reject all of this crossover nonsense and get a Model 3 (and hope it doesn’t fall to bits) or an i4 (and hope it drives better than my previous 5 Series). Or I could continue to refuse to grow up and get yet another Fiesta ST seeing as it does everything I need it to, and as a bonus is “politically incorrect” (especially in orange) as we’re officially supposed to drive monochrome coloured German bore-mobiles that don’t make shotgun noises every time you change gear…… :lol:
 

jon0844

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Very pedantic re the V50 T5 and Focus RS Mk2. Same engine, different tune and turbo but I didn't think it necessary to consider the specifics in this thread. Or things like suspension etc.

I had the Mk1 Focus RS (I even featured on Channel 4's Driven show) but opted to try the Volvo as I preferred the build to what Ford offered (and a bit more flexibility) later on, as well as terrible experiences with Ford dealers trying to service and maintain performance cars.

It wasn't bought to be a direct replacement, and one consideration was keeping it more low profile given the ridiculous issue with theft on Ford cars of the era too. The Focus and a Mondeo TDCi marked the end of my relationship with Ford.

Anyway, now I'm not against speed but I have different priorities. I could never buy a Tesla for one.
 

DustyBin

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Very pedantic re the V50 T5 and Focus RS Mk2. Same engine, different tune and turbo but I didn't think it necessary to consider the specifics in this thread. Or things like suspension etc.

So the ST engine then ;)……

I had the Mk1 Focus RS (I even featured on Channel 4's Driven show) but opted to try the Volvo as I preferred the build to what Ford offered (and a bit more flexibility) later on, as well as terrible experiences with Ford dealers trying to service and maintain performance cars.

I’ve never had a MK1 (or MK2) unfortunately but I do have a MK3. A green MK2 is on my “bucket list” of cars I need to own at some point. I know what you mean about the dealerships they’re very hit and miss. I either do jobs myself or take our cars to a small family owned Ford franchise nearby who are actually very good.

It wasn't bought to be a direct replacement, and one consideration was keeping it more low profile given the ridiculous issue with theft on Ford cars of the era too. The Focus and a Mondeo TDCi marked the end of my relationship with Ford.

Clutches or injectors?

Anyway, now I'm not against speed but I have different priorities. I could never buy a Tesla for one.

I’m not that keen on the Tesla brand to be honest (or maybe it’s more that Elon bloke, I’m not sure), it’s only on my list as it isn’t a crossover. What puts you off them out of interest?
 

reddragon

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I’m still no further on with my own new car search, part of me thinks make the switch now and go for a Mach-E (and pretend it’s a Mustang ;)) or do the right thing and reject all of this crossover nonsense and get a Model 3 (and hope it doesn’t fall to bits) or an i4 (and hope it drives better than my previous 5 Series). Or I could continue to refuse to grow up and get yet another Fiesta ST seeing as it does everything I need it to, and as a bonus is “politically incorrect” (especially in orange) as we’re officially supposed to drive monochrome coloured German bore-mobiles that don’t make shotgun noises every time you change gear…… :lol:
The Mach-E is a really nice car in all practical, driving & appearance senses but Sandy Munroe found it to be very poorly designed underneath and likely to cost a lot to maintain as it ages.

The BMW i4 is ICE based so lacks internal space and the lower centre of gravity afforded by the skateboard platform.

The Tesla M3 & Y from China are better put together than the German makes and well above the US made Teslas
 

jon0844

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Clutches or injectors?

I’m not that keen on the Tesla brand to be honest (or maybe it’s more that Elon bloke, I’m not sure), it’s only on my list as it isn’t a crossover. What puts you off them out of interest?

Clutch problem on my Escort Cosworth, which had it off the road a ridiculous time (ended up with the service managers car for a couple of months). They just couldn't fit it and tried multiple clutches. They damaged hoses in the engine bay, broke the air con and created an electrical issue with the headlamps.

Car was absolutely fine before they mangled it (I mean, yes, the clutch needed doing but that should have been fairly routine). Dealership was a RS specialist too, supposedly!

Loads of other issues with other cars (until 2008 I had only ever bought and owned Ford cars) eventually made me decide enough was enough.

As for Tesla, I find the design bland on the outside and inside. I am not a fan of the huge touchscreen display, the software (or build) issues or Elon! Elon is a prize tool IMO, although that wouldn't put me off alone. What amazes me is how Tesla has become the Apple of cars, and the people I know who have a Tesla (Model 3 all of them) all seem to acknowledge a series of issues, including a poor paint job on delivery, yet still remain loyal. In fact, hearing from actual owners is a major contributory factor in thinking 'why would I want these hassles'?

I guess I was like that with my performance cars, but now I'm older I would not tolerate what I may have done then.

I've been in high-end Audis and seen the new Mercedes EV luxo-barge and they look amazing, but while I'm heavily into tech, I actually think I want something a bit more 'normal'. I don't need 20 expensive-to-replace screens (which will likely fail before the car does), and I like real buttons over trying to use a touchscreen on the move. Something in between Tesla and a EQS - which, ironically, it seems will likely be achieved by the Chinese car makers. (Android Auto, preferably wireless, would likely suit me just fine as I'd rather have access to my smartphone apps than some custom software that will be updated for 2-3 years max and then forgotten about)
 

DustyBin

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Clutch problem on my Escort Cosworth, which had it off the road a ridiculous time (ended up with the service managers car for a couple of months). They just couldn't fit it and tried multiple clutches. They damaged hoses in the engine bay, broke the air con and created an electrical issue with the headlamps.

Car was absolutely fine before they mangled it (I mean, yes, the clutch needed doing but that should have been fairly routine). Dealership was a RS specialist too, supposedly!

Loads of other issues with other cars (until 2008 I had only ever bought and owned Ford cars) eventually made me decide enough was enough.

Nightmare! Touch wood I’ve never had an issue with a Ford, they even managed to complete the head gasket replacement on my RS without incident. My most troublesome car was my last 5 Series which was forever going into BMW but I wasn’t paying so it was more of an inconvenience than anything.

As for Tesla, I find the design bland on the outside and inside. I am not a fan of the huge touchscreen display, the software (or build) issues or Elon! Elon is a prize tool IMO, although that wouldn't put me off alone. What amazes me is how Tesla has become the Apple of cars, and the people I know who have a Tesla (Model 3 all of them) all seem to acknowledge a series of issues, including a poor paint job on delivery, yet still remain loyal. In fact, hearing from actual owners is a major contributory factor in thinking 'why would I want these hassles'?

I agree with all of this!

I guess I was like that with my performance cars, but now I'm older I would not tolerate what I may have done then.

I've been in high-end Audis and seen the new Mercedes EV luxo-barge and they look amazing, but while I'm heavily into tech, I actually think I want something a bit more 'normal'. I don't need 20 expensive-to-replace screens (which will likely fail before the car does), and I like real buttons over trying to use a touchscreen on the move. Something in between Tesla and a EQS - which, ironically, it seems will likely be achieved by the Chinese car makers. (Android Auto, preferably wireless, would likely suit me just fine as I'd rather have access to my smartphone apps than some custom software that will be updated for 2-3 years max and then forgotten about)

I’m not massively into tech so I’m bracing myself for what’s coming! That’s one of the things I like about my little ST; it’s (relative) simplicity (it even has a proper handbrake!). It’s much more sophisticated than the MK7 but still feels like a car as opposed to an appliance.
 

trebor79

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As a petrol head (or should that now be “car person” :D) I’m unlikely to ever share your enthusiasm for these Chinese cars, but I don’t dispute that they have no real competition at present in terms of value for money.
Fair enough, though I've also been a petrol head. The best car I've ever had was my Alfa Romeo MiTo with the top rated turbo petrol engine. It was a sad day I got a company car and had to let it go.
But I wonder what your objection to Chinese cars is? If it's a perceived quality issue just look at your mobile phone, TV, computer etc. Almost universally made in China and exquisite quality. The cars, IMHO are the same. A few years ago for sure there was some cheap rubbish coming over, but I think that's rapidly becoming a thing of the past.
The MG's aren't going to turn any heads, but perhaps their next models might, and the Ora Cat definitely will. Look at Kia and Hyundai - 10 years ago they were pretty much lowest of the low in terms of brand cachet, then were in the space that MG are expanding into - cheap, decent, nothing to write home about and now all of a sudden produce two of the most desirable EV's on the market and are charging prices on a par with the western brands.
Fact is MG is the fastest growing brand in the UK at the moment and it's not difficult to understand why.
As for Tesla, I find the design bland on the outside and inside. I am not a fan of the huge touchscreen display, the software (or build) issues or Elon! Elon is a prize tool IMO, although that wouldn't put me off alone. What amazes me is how Tesla has become the Apple of cars, and the people I know who have a Tesla (Model 3 all of them) all seem to acknowledge a series of issues, including a poor paint job on delivery, yet still remain loyal. In fact, hearing from actual owners is a major contributory factor in thinking 'why would I want these hassles'?
I find Teslas really boring to look at, the Model 3 looks quite old-fashioned to me. And the Model Y is dreadfully designed, looks like it's been drawn by a child.
Boring interior too. Range, performance and the supercharger network are the only selling point for me. But other marques are catching up on range, there's only so many times you're going to be able to do 0-60 in 3 seconds without the wife and kids screaming and people like Gridserve are going to solve the charging issues.
My boss has discovered that he can't use the boot in the rain, because when you open the boot, all the water runs off the lid into the boot! In the summer when he chauffered me for a day the air con was stuck set to 23.5C, one of the cameras had failed, and it sometimes refused to let him start the car. Was about 4 weeks old at this point.
 

DustyBin

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Fair enough, though I've also been a petrol head. The best car I've ever had was my Alfa Romeo MiTo with the top rated turbo petrol engine. It was a sad day I got a company car and had to let it go.
But I wonder what your objection to Chinese cars is? If it's a perceived quality issue just look at your mobile phone, TV, computer etc. Almost universally made in China and exquisite quality. The cars, IMHO are the same. A few years ago for sure there was some cheap rubbish coming over, but I think that's rapidly becoming a thing of the past.
The MG's aren't going to turn any heads, but perhaps their next models might, and the Ora Cat definitely will. Look at Kia and Hyundai - 10 years ago they were pretty much lowest of the low in terms of brand cachet, then were in the space that MG are expanding into - cheap, decent, nothing to write home about and now all of a sudden produce two of the most desirable EV's on the market and are charging prices on a par with the western brands.
Fact is MG is the fastest growing brand in the UK at the moment and it's not difficult to understand why.

The Chinese are capable of manufacturing perfectly decent stuff. As I’ve often said “they produce what we pay them to produce”.

A large part of my objection comes from my concerns regarding China in general. I know you’ve previously said you don’t care about the geopolitical stuff which is entirely your choice but I struggle to ignore it. Whilst I realise buying a car isn’t the same as awarding contracts to build critical infrastructure(!) if I can do my bit not to support China (or more specifically the CCP - I’ve nothing against ordinary Chinese people) I’ll do it. I should say that I don’t boycott all Chinese goods as it’s simply not feasible, but I try where possible and at times put my money where my mouth in order to do so.

I find Teslas really boring to look at, the Model 3 looks quite old-fashioned to me. And the Model Y is dreadfully designed, looks like it's been drawn by a child.
Boring interior too. Range, performance and the supercharger network are the only selling point for me. But other marques are catching up on range, there's only so many times you're going to be able to do 0-60 in 3 seconds without the wife and kids screaming and people like Gridserve are going to solve the charging issues.
My boss has discovered that he can't use the boot in the rain, because when you open the boot, all the water runs off the lid into the boot! In the summer when he chauffered me for a day the air con was stuck set to 23.5C, one of the cameras had failed, and it sometimes refused to let him start the car. Was about 4 weeks old at this point.

I agree, they do nothing for me really and have genuine quality issues but options are limited.
 

trebor79

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The Chinese are capable of manufacturing perfectly decent stuff. As I’ve often said “they produce what we pay them to produce”.

A large part of my objection comes from my concerns regarding China in general. I know you’ve previously said you don’t care about the geopolitical stuff which is entirely your choice but I struggle to ignore it. Whilst I realise buying a car isn’t the same as awarding contracts to build critical infrastructure(!) if I can do my bit not to support China (or more specifically the CCP - I’ve nothing against ordinary Chinese people) I’ll do it. I should say that I don’t boycott all Chinese goods as it’s simply not feasible, but I try where possible and at times put my money where my mouth in order to do so.
Ah OK. I can see that argument, and don't necessarily disagree with it. The flip side is if we trade freely with them perhaps they won't feel so threatened and in turn threaten others. For example, if invading Taiwan wouldn't result in massive sanctions and economic hardship for them (aside from any potential military response), they'd have done it years ago. It's because of their trade links with the rest of the world that they feel constrained, IMO. Look at North Korea - they do whatever they like with impunity because it's impossible for anything other than a military response (which won't happen) to make things any more difficult for them.
 

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Ah OK. I can see that argument, and don't necessarily disagree with it. The flip side is if we trade freely with them perhaps they won't feel so threatened and in turn threaten others. For example, if invading Taiwan wouldn't result in massive sanctions and economic hardship for them (aside from any potential military response), they'd have done it years ago. It's because of their trade links with the rest of the world that they feel constrained, IMO. Look at North Korea - they do whatever they like with impunity because it's impossible for anything other than a military response (which won't happen) to make things any more difficult for them.

Possibly, the truth is I don’t know. “Appeasement” is often viewed as a dirty word, however when used appropriately it can actually be a very good thing. I’d rather see us have a good relationship with China but I’m highly suspicious of their intentions.
 

Bletchleyite

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Possibly, the truth is I don’t know. “Appeasement” is often viewed as a dirty word, however when used appropriately it can actually be a very good thing. I’d rather see us have a good relationship with China but I’m highly suspicious of their intentions.

I think the intention in EV terms (both cars and larger vehicles) is to own the market, just like they near enough do for consumer electronics. This might have political advantages for them, but in many ways they are an incredibly capitalist country for one that claims to be communist - aside from the issue of Taiwan (which is in many ways just their slightly different version of the Northern Irish question) they don't seem interested in conquest, just making themselves money and controlling their own populace.
 

DustyBin

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I think the intention in EV terms (both cars and larger vehicles) is to own the market, just like they near enough do for consumer electronics. This might have political advantages for them, but in many ways they are an incredibly capitalist country for one that claims to be communist - aside from the issue of Taiwan (which is in many ways just their slightly different version of the Northern Irish question) they don't seem interested in conquest, just making themselves money and controlling their own populace.

You’re probably right; I’m not convinced they care too much about what we do in Europe for example and are happy to coexist. The problem will come when/if they do something in their own backyard that the West can’t ignore on “moral grounds”. Or if a conflict arises with say Australia or Japan.
 

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I think the intention in EV terms (both cars and larger vehicles) is to own the market, just like they near enough do for consumer electronics. This might have political advantages for them, but in many ways they are an incredibly capitalist country for one that claims to be communist - aside from the issue of Taiwan (which is in many ways just their slightly different version of the Northern Irish question) they don't seem interested in conquest, just making themselves money and controlling their own populace.
Indeed which is why I was reluctant to buy a Chinese (MG) EV.

The Government have also announced a reduction in the EV grant for new ones down from £2500 to £1500 and only applying to cars with a list price of up to £32K instead of 35K previously
 

jon0844

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I would expect that as subsidies are reduced, manufacturers should seek to further reduce prices to remain competitive. I'm sure some took advantage of the subsidy to get the retail price down, and it was never going to last forever (nor should it, given it's the taxpayer funding it).

The aim must be to get rid of the subsidy altogether, but have the car industry continue to work to get prices right down, which they will thanks to improving technology, economy of scale and competition.
 

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Given that petrol stations mostly make money on convenience shopping, coffee etc these days (supermarkets bringing the price of fuel down to attract people in having killed off most profit in the sale of that) this is exactly what I expected to see. Plug in, do a top-up shop, have a coffee, use the loo, drive off. A bit more like the use-case of a motorway services than a classic fuel station.

Having watched the video, it is literally exactly what I would envisage.
 

jon0844

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Great to see these already happening. With the IONIQ 5 able to charge 10-80% in under 18 minutes, although I'm not sure if that would be the case at this particular station, that's perfect for a short break to prepare for another 200-250 mile drive.

Of course, Shell isn't going to be cheap - but that's the price for convenience as those using motorway service stations are only too well aware already. I think it will work out for many people as a place of last resort, but giving that extra assurance for those with range anxiety. Seek to charge elsewhere if you can, but know that these places exist (I assume they'll all be open 24/7).
 

reddragon

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Whilst being the first Shell 'conversion', many new charging station / hubs are popping up all over the place. Many old service stations do not have the access of power supply needed, so new sites are preferred.

Basically charge rates per kw are driven by charging speed. Many 7kw chargers are free, 50kw are around 24-45p, 150kw are 45-55p, 350kw are 70-80p.

Ionity is 40p for 50kw or 80p for 350 kw
Gridserve is 30p everywhere and at all speeds
Shell is 45p for 50kw or 49p for faster.
 

trebor79

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Basically charge rates per kw are driven by charging speed. Many 7kw chargers are free, 50kw are around 24-45p, 150kw are 45-55p, 350kw are 70-80p.
Cheaper to use petrol!
I do remain if the opinion that the companies have got their pricing backwards. Given the capital investment required for a charger, it would make more sense to charge people less for a quicker charge than more. Their current model just encouraged people to charge more slowly, so they sell less electricity and lower volume per charge station. Bonkers.
 

bspahh

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Cheaper to use petrol!
I do remain if the opinion that the companies have got their pricing backwards. Given the capital investment required for a charger, it would make more sense to charge people less for a quicker charge than more. Their current model just encouraged people to charge more slowly, so they sell less electricity and lower volume per charge station. Bonkers.
The difference to petrol is that people with a home charger, will only pay to use a commercial charger on a long trip, or when they are away from home, such as on a holiday.

These companies aren't selling electricity. They are selling the convenience of being able to carry on your journey. The pricing plans will be designed to get lots of money from people who are willing to pay for the convenience of a rapid charge, whilst still getting some money from people with more time to spare, who are sensitive to the price.
 

jon0844

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And I expect more and more companies will seek to offer subscriptions to get faster charging for less, thus earning another easy regular income that people will forget to cancel.
 
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