Heathrow Western Access comes to a Standstill

[camflyer]

I gather LU did a survey of routes people took from Waterloo to Kings Cross, and were genuinely surprised by the results.

I usually do Bakerloo to Oxford Circus, for cross platform interchange to Victoria line. But agree there's a lenghty walk once you get to Kings Cross.

Some of the Ascot trains stop at Vauxhall, which offers direct Victoria line to KGX. Have tried it on occasion, but changing at Vauxhall is quite a trek as well.

Yes, here are the results of the KX to Waterloo study

Tracking smartphone Wi-Fi signals reveals curious journeys on the London Underground

A trial by TfL to track the movements of people by logging Wi-Fi identities has revealed some very curious journey patterns on the tube network.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

I haven't done the point to point route in a few years but it used to be a regular trip. I think that I would have mostly gone via Leicester Square but that would have been in the days before Citymapper and other services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, here are the results of the KX to Waterloo study

Tracking smartphone Wi-Fi signals reveals curious journeys on the London Underground

A trial by TfL to track the movements of people by logging Wi-Fi identities has revealed some very curious journey patterns on the tube network.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

I haven't done the point to point route in a few years but it used to be a regular trip. I think that I would have mostly gone via Leicester Square but that would have been in the days before Citymapper and other services.

Back when the recommended transfer routes were still indicated by those coloured light panels on the ceilings in the LU stations, I think Leicester Sq was the signed route, they were never altered to add the possibility of Bakerloo - Victoria but many people quickly switched to via Oxford Circus anyway, including myself as early as 1972…

 

[hwl]

Back when the recommended transfer routes were still indicated by those coloured light panels on the ceilings in the LU stations, I think Leicester Sq was the signed route, they were never altered to add the possibility of Bakerloo - Victoria but many people quickly switched to via Oxford Circus anyway, including myself as early as 1972…

I would never have though about using Leicester Square. I'd hop off at Vauxhall and take the Victoria all the way instead and I quite like the Bakerloo to/from Waterloo as it is quite quiet as well as the interchange at Oxford Circus.

 

[swt_passenger]

I would never have though about using Leicester Square. I'd hop off at Vauxhall and take the Victoria all the way instead and I quite like the Bakerloo to/from Waterloo as it is quite quiet as well as the interchange at Oxford Circus.

Sure, but I was invariably on long distance trains heading to Fareham…

 

[gallafent]

I presume these routes/timings are off of some hopeless website system without human intervention to turn them into sense?

… yeah, Google, who are they, they're never going to get anywhere, hopeless company, no idea how to take real world data and make optimal results from it … I feel a race against myself coming on, to compare the different suggested routes in “real life”, both against each other and against the Google Maps timings …

Re the smartphone tracking stuff, Google's favourite, Jubilee->Victoria, was second most popular, so there must be something in it! (and it also turns up the Bakerloo->Victoria option too, from time to time …).

How about 521 bus to Holborn, then Piccadilly Line? *ducks* …

 

[BluePenguin]

Next time I’m in London and have a few hours to kill, this might be a good way to start off the boredom lol

I feel a race against myself coming on, to compare the different suggested routes in “real life”, both against each other and against the Google Maps timings …

 

[AlastairFraser]

The problems is that Western access has its eyes on the HEx paths and those are potentially a better operational fit.
The southern access business case relies on getting fast access to Paddington bring with it more fares revenue, Heathrow is only part of their business plan, OOC and Paddington are probably the real destinations they are aiming for with Basingstoke, Guildford, Woking etc. passengers.

ORCATS raids may be a lot harder with GBR.

How would the western access use HEx paths, given the HeX turns off the GWML at Stockley Park? They're not proposing to run services from Reading through Heathrow to Paddington, are they? That would be really slow and pointless given the existence of 1) HEx and 2) GWR fast services from both Slough and Reading into Paddington. The Southern Access proposal extending the HeX through to Guildford to create fast links from Surrey/the rest of the South Western network through to Heathrow and Paddington seems to make much better sense.
The western access makes sense, but only as a local/semi-fast service from Reading/beyond to Heathrow T5.

 

[SynthD]

That path is a use of a time slot, you could say the path lasts as long as it’s four lines wide. I agree it doesn’t make sense with those other services - merge them.

 

[cle]

How would the western access use HEx paths, given the HeX turns off the GWML at Stockley Park? They're not proposing to run services from Reading through Heathrow to Paddington, are they? That would be really slow and pointless given the existence of 1) HEx and 2) GWR fast services from both Slough and Reading into Paddington. The Southern Access proposal extending the HeX through to Guildford to create fast links from Surrey/the rest of the South Western network through to Heathrow and Paddington seems to make much better sense.
The western access makes sense, but only as a local/semi-fast service from Reading/beyond to Heathrow T5.

I think.... think:

-4tph HEx act as HEx. Those paths remain.
- The 4tph at T5 would then use the new Western access, and rejoin the GWML but on the reliefs. Fasts would not be connected, and they need those HEx paths vacated for the fast Oxfords to stop at Slough.
- They would ostensibly be new services - T5 to Reading, for instance, but same HEx stock.
- Not marketed for London-Reading, but operationally run like that. Calls at Slough and Maidenhead. Maybe they'd reach Didcot and Newbury.

So not meant for London travel, but run-through. Not sure on T5 dwells, or headcodes.

 

[JamesT]

How would the western access use HEx paths, given the HeX turns off the GWML at Stockley Park? They're not proposing to run services from Reading through Heathrow to Paddington, are they? That would be really slow and pointless given the existence of 1) HEx and 2) GWR fast services from both Slough and Reading into Paddington. The Southern Access proposal extending the HeX through to Guildford to create fast links from Surrey/the rest of the South Western network through to Heathrow and Paddington seems to make much better sense.
The western access makes sense, but only as a local/semi-fast service from Reading/beyond to Heathrow T5.

Although nobody would use it to go end to end, running a through service to cater for various shorter flows is pretty common.
https://consultations.networkrail.co.uk/communications/improving-rail-links-to-heathrow/ suggests

All trains would call at Reading and Slough and alternate trains at Twyford and Maidenhead. Journey times could be as short as 26 minutes from Reading and 6 to 7 minutes from Slough.

Option B includes being able to run through to Paddington. So it would basically become HEx at that point. If you want direct from Reading you'd stick with

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think.... think:

-4tph HEx act as HEx. Those paths remain.
- The 4tph at T5 would then use the new Western access, and rejoin the GWML but on the reliefs. Fasts would not be connected, and they need those HEx paths vacated for the fast Oxfords to stop at Slough.
- They would ostensibly be new services - T5 to Reading, for instance, but same HEx stock.
- Not marketed for London-Reading, but operationally run like that. Calls at Slough and Maidenhead. Maybe they'd reach Didcot and Newbury.

So not meant for London travel, but run-through. Not sure on T5 dwells, or headcodes.

I don't think you could fit 4tph on the GWML reliefs west of Langley, due to Crossrail/GWR semi fasts, but 2tph run in this way would work out. Question is, is just 2tph using the link considered value for money.
If the Heathrow Southern Railway was built as well, they could take the other 2 HeX paths to Guildford via Woking and also 2tph Crossrail with a spur to Staines, but, again, doesn't look like that's going to get financed any time soon.

Although nobody would use it to go end to end, running a through service to cater for various shorter flows is pretty common.
https://consultations.networkrail.co.uk/communications/improving-rail-links-to-heathrow/ suggests

All trains would call at Reading and Slough and alternate trains at Twyford and Maidenhead. Journey times could be as short as 26 minutes from Reading and 6 to 7 minutes from Slough.

Option B includes being able to run through to Paddington. So it would basically become HEx at that point. If you want direct from Reading you'd stick with

That somewhat makes sense, but you're not fitting all 4tph of HeX all the way through to Reading (as I said to cle) without impacting on the extra fast services GWR want to run into Paddington, now platform space is freed up.
If the finances could work out with 2tph going through on the Western Access and the rest heading to Guildford, then, it's worth looking at.

Moderator note: As this project is seemingly not progressing and the thread is becoming increasingly speculative, this thread is now locked however @AlastairFraser has helpfully created a new thread, where the discussion can continue:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/proposed-heathrow-western-access-heathrow-southern-railway-service-pattern.220829/

 

[JN114]

As already put upthread though, Heathrow Airport and HEx haven’t shown much/any enthusiasm for the Southern Link, and certainly not any appetite for extending HEx over it if it’s ever built.

It’s the Western Access that Heathrow want, for a plethora of reasons it’s a much better fit for them - they just haven’t the money for it right now and it sounds like the government won’t fund it outright either; although that is what is being looked at.