Heathrow: Western Link to GWML.

[The Ham]

These aren't really 'subtle variations' to this project though - they are a completely separate proposal that is at nowhere near the same level of official NR activity as western access is.

Although all the above is true the thing that has changed its that it appears to have narrowed the options down to two.

 

[swt_passenger]

However given the cost savings associated with OHLE over the lifetime of the system and the desire to not have any new third rail systems then I would be surprised if it were to be anything other than OHLE.

Also if they build it as OHLE then the tunnels will be big enough to be converted to third rail if needed, whilst it may not be possible to do it the other way.

I was really thinking specifically of the possible link to the existing DC system, ie the proposed Southern Access. So assuming that the AC/DC changeover would be somewhere between the Staines - Reading line and T5, rather than dual electrifying all the way to Staines or wherever. The Airtrack scheme had specifically ruled out DC within the T5 confines. Of course the question of DC doesn't really arise if considering only Western access.

 

[mwmbwls]

Regarding the maturity of these projects, this week,Aaron Moresby wrote in Construction Enquirer.
"The Government plans to sound out the industry’s present appetite to fund major new rail links to Heathrow Airport.
It is planning a series of industry days to outline plans for a £900m Western Rail Link and £1.4bn Southern Rail Link to the airport.



Of the two schemes, the 6.5km Western Rail Link from the Great Western Main Line in the Langley area to Terminal 5 is the most advanced with the planned route going to final public consultation this month.

After a short stretch of open railway it would enter a new 5km tunnel and then join existing rail lines underground at Heathrow.

Department for Transport chiefs hope to deliver this part, expected to cost £700m-£900m, with private sector involvement in financing, delivery and maintenance.

DfT plans industry engagement sessions in June and July to test various assumptions concerning a proposed PPP option.

Subject to a decision to proceed an invitation to tender will be published in July 2019".

 

[swt_passenger]

Fair enough, but what's really new there compared to the last thread about Southern Access that was last under way in March:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-southern-link.159625/page-2

Every time one or the other scheme gets mentioned we seem to drift away into all the adjacent schemes within a couple of pages, from realistic (Southern link) to ridiculous (Windsor link).

 

[MotCO]

From memory, the proposed extension of Heathrow is planned to be north west of the existing site. How do the proposed new rail links link into the Heathrow expansion plans?

 

[Bald Rick]

I remember this pie in the sky proposal claimed it had Network Rail support a few years ago. I suspect that was a misinterpretation of Network Rail being too polite to tell them to get lost in a formal letter...

NR can’t really tell proposers of projects to get lost. What they can do is explain (patiently / repeatedly) what needs to be done in order for a project to proceed. Sometimes project proposers listen.

 

[swt_passenger]

NR can’t really tell proposers of projects to get lost. What they can do is explain (patiently / repeatedly) what needs to be done in order for a project to proceed. Sometimes project proposers listen.

This is sort of thing I was thinking of, from 2013, when the promotors appear to have convinced the BBC that:

Windsor Link Railway funding plans approved
Plans to raise funds for a proposed private railway project in Windsor have been approved by Network Rail.
The Windsor Link Railway (WLR), costing £100m-£150m, would link the Thames Valley to Waterloo by building a tunnel at Windsor.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-22983453

I'd bet Network Rail had not said anything to suggest that...

 

[Bald Rick]

From memory, the proposed extension of Heathrow is planned to be north west of the existing site. How do the proposed new rail links link into the Heathrow expansion plans?

It’s just a runway. The terminals stay in roughly the same place : T5 is expanded into Heathrow West, and T2 is expanded into Heathrow East, with T 3 closed.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is sort of thing I was thinking of, from 2013, when the promotors appear to have convinced the BBC that:


I'd bet Network Rail had not said anything to suggest that...

And you’d win your bet!

 

[cle]

Are there plans to build T5D as yet?

If the western access happens, as seems most likely, then I don’t see a huge need for the southern link into Virginia Water. It’s only Bracknell and Wokingham access really, and you can’t serve everywhere.

The town of Chertsey would be a real winner, and it’s a big side benefit, a decent sized town on an awkward position on the railway all of a sudden with a fast link to LHR and Paddington - plus direct faster services southwest.

Presumably that would be the neater way to Basingstoke (via Woking) given that the western route will use the reliefs.

 

[The Ham]

Are there plans to build T5D as yet?



If the western access happens, as seems most likely, then I don’t see a huge need for the southern link into Virginia Water. It’s only Bracknell and Wokingham access really, and you can’t serve everywhere.



The town of Chertsey would be a real winner, and it’s a big side benefit, a decent sized town on an awkward position on the railway all of a sudden with a fast link to LHR and Paddington - plus direct faster services southwest.



Presumably that would be the neater way to Basingstoke (via Woking) given that the western route will use the reliefs.

The Southern Access to Heathrow is due to have train services from Basingstoke (more on that later), Guildford and that little station Waterloo (you may have heard of it). As such far more than just the few places you mention.



Basingstoke is likely to see services using both the Southern and Western Approaches, as such the demand from the is likely to be split. Also given that people heading to Heathrow would have the choice of 2tph if they change at Basingstoke or 4tph of they change at Woking, meaning that unless there's a good change time at Basingstoke (or you've used a service which doesn't call at Woking, but then if that's a XC service you'd probably be better changing at Reading) you may as well change at Woking as it gives you a wider choice of services and you split your journey when you're closer to Heathrow (which could be useful and allow for a more restful leg between Woking and wherever you are traveling to/from).



This then leads to the question, would it be better to run fast/semi fast between Basingstoke and Woking or call at all the stations?



My personal preference would be for it to call at all the stations, as there's a lot of people who use those stations. If it ran fast (i.e. Basingstoke and Woking) then you're missing out strains with more passengers than Basingstoke (6 million passengers) has. If you call at Farnborough Main (3 million passengers) as well, then it's better in that it would be serving stations with circa 70% of the passenger numbers along that corridor, however given that those from Basingstoke (which make up about 2/3rds of that amount) have a choice to go via Reading (which is likely to be comparable in journey times if it calls at all stations between Basingstoke and Reading or only calls at Farnborough heading the other way). As such the penalty for stopping at all stations between Basingstoke and Woking would be fairly small but serve stations with virtually 4 million current passengers as well as making rail travel between those stations more attractive which is likely to increase the number of people using the trains.

As such the risks with making those extra stops compared to the extra income that is likely to be generated would probably make calling at all those stations worth doing.

 

[mr_jrt]

The Windsor line junction is embedded in the middle of Slough. It might just be feasible to reopen the western chord but the bigger problem is that grade-separation in either direction is not feasible. The southern pair of tracks are the main lines for express trains and without grade-separation, trains to/from Windsor would need to cross the whole GWML to go either west or east. It works fine when the Windsor branch is just a shuttle but that's not what this link would need to be about.

Looking at things, it doesn't actually seem to difficult to get the required grade-separation. There's a skip-hire firm all along the northern side of the railway, so splaying out the relief lines should be quite doable by using that land. You can't go over the existing rail lines due to the B416 Road bridge, so you would have to go under by digging out the western curve and putting in new bridges for the existing lines instead, and then you would rise up between the splayed relief lines.

Missing Slough would be a big connectivity loss, though.

 

[JamesT]

The Southern Access to Heathrow is due to have train services from Basingstoke (more on that later), Guildford and that little station Waterloo (you may have heard of it). As such far more than just the few places you mention.

I think you misunderstand cle. I believe they were saying that the yellow line/option 8 towards Virginia Water wouldn't be needed if the Western Access was built, implying the brown line/option 3 for Southern Access would be the right answer.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Southern Access to Heathrow is due to have train services from Basingstoke (more on that later), Guildford and that little station Waterloo (you may have heard of it). As such far more than just the few places you mention.

I think you've completely missed the point here. In the above context I'm sure Cle must have been comparing the yellow and brown options, and basically saying that the ability to run towards Reading loses some of its usefulness if WR access is already in place.

 

[Bessie]

Let's say its £900m for the western Heathrow link (which will become £1.5bn just like that). Is there any money available for this? Surely HS2 and the remaining electrification of GWML (Oxford, Bath) will take precedence.

 

[cle]

I think you've completely missed the point here. In the above context I'm sure Cle must have been comparing the yellow and brown options, and basically saying that the ability to run towards Reading loses some of its usefulness if WR access is already in place.

Yes exactly, thanks. My point was that with the western access scheme extant by this stage (and offering Slough as well as faster Reading) - the option 8 on the southern towards Bracknell is not so attractive.

And also that Basingstoke via Reading would be on the reliefs, and thus create an issue crossing (as I remember it, but glad to be wrong, the diveunder at Reading is from Southern to relief lines, not the opposite which would be needed). Whereas the SWML is paired by direction...so switching to the fasts would be easier - am I correct here or missing something?

 

[swt_passenger]

I’m a little confused by what you are comparing now.
For Heathrow to Basingstoke services there would only be two main options, either by Western access and via Reading; or via Southern Access and Woking (using the existing grade separated curve at West Byfleet), with the latter having the sub options of via Virginia Water or not, using the new direct line towards Chertsey. The main point is to avoid level crossing issues by piggy backing alongside the M25 corridor.

I don’t think any scheme has ever proposed Heathrow > Virginia Water > Ascot > Reading > Basingstoke, has it?

However it is quite possible to run a train from the Southern across Reading towards Basingstoke without conflicts, a down train could just use P7, and an up train could use the underpasses at both ends. I doubt it is the best use of capacity though.

 

[cle]

Nope I wasn’t suggesting that - I was saying the route via Bracknell was redundant with the western access assumed to be active at that stage.

And a second point that from the western and relief lines to Basingstoke was problematic - as the diveunders at a Reading are from southern line upwards rather than reliefs to Reading West. And thus heading to Basingstoke and beyond would be best via Woking.

 

[Sebastian O]

However it is quite possible to run a train from the Southern across Reading towards Basingstoke without conflicts, a down train could just use P7, and an up train could use the underpasses at both ends. I doubt it is the best use of capacity though.

I’m aware of the non electrified underpass from Reading electric route onto the north side of the station but is there one on the opposite side from north side of the station down towards Southcote Junction or do you mean the other line that diverges from Reading electric route into the down relief on the south side?

 

[The Ham]

Nope I wasn’t suggesting that - I was saying the route via Bracknell was redundant with the western access assumed to be active at that stage.

And a second point that from the western and relief lines to Basingstoke was problematic - as the diveunders at a Reading are from southern line upwards rather than reliefs to Reading West. And thus heading to Basingstoke and beyond would be best via Woking.

I thought (and this link looks like it confirms it) that the new layout allows trains from Basingstoke to cross over to the relief lines and allows XC services to come in on the reliefs from Didcot and cross down towards Basingstoke as the mains towards Didcot go up over the bridge.

Using the Southern Approach to go to Reading via Ascot could be a good diversionary route.

 

[mwmbwls]

I’m a little confused by what you are comparing now.
For Heathrow to Basingstoke services there would only be two main options, either by Western access and via Reading; or via Southern Access and Woking (using the existing grade separated curve at West Byfleet), with the latter having the sub options of via Virginia Water or not, using the new direct line towards Chertsey. The main point is to avoid level crossing issues by piggy backing alongside the M25 corridor.

You raise an interesting point about level crossings - How many of them are there on each of the route options. I seem to recall spending many happy hours as a motorist pausing at Addlestone and Chertsey Stations.

 

[mwmbwls]

Let's say its £900m for the western Heathrow link (which will become £1.5bn just like that). Is there any money available for this? Surely HS2 and the remaining electrification of GWML (Oxford, Bath) will take precedence.

My post #63 cites Construction Enquirer on this point.
The Government is either trying to fly a kite or float a boat on this - choose your analogy.
The SWRATH scheme is being promoted by the DfT as being funded by private finance - or possibly more feasibly as a Government funded build and then subsequent lease to financial investors such as is the case with HS1. This would reduce/eliminate financiers' taking on construction and completion risks but leaving them with subsequent performance risk. It would be politically possible for the government to insist that Heathrow fund some or all of the investment as part of its community infrastructure commitments but that raises a whole host of other issues if other impacted communities see their pet amelioration scheme downgraded.

The financial/political engineering could be more complex that the physical.

 

[mwmbwls]

Even as I was pressing "send" the following arrived courtesy of Transport Info.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...il-line-built-private-money-has-five-bidders/

MTR could well betoken a long standing Chinese interest in neo-colonial infrastructure - This began with the TAZARA railway.

 

[brtom]

A light rail system has also been proposed by Interlinking Transit Solutions, headed up by Canadian Peter Buckley, as part of its broader Greater London transport proposal.

Seems an odd proposal given the big idea is connecting to towns further away like Guildford.

 

[hwl]

You raise an interesting point about level crossings - How many of them are there on each of the route options. I seem to recall spending many happy hours as a motorist pausing at Addlestone and Chertsey Stations.

Chertsey has a Bridge now (about 15-20 years old). The main issues are around Egham which the AECOM HSR Southern proposal avoids.

 

[swt_passenger]

And a second point that from the western and relief lines to Basingstoke was problematic - as the diveunders at a Reading are from southern line upwards rather than reliefs to Reading West. And thus heading to Basingstoke and beyond would be best via Woking.

Then that is not a problem. There is definitely grade separation to/from Reading West and the relief side already as shown in the layout drawing The Ham provided above. There are few current GW services but Basingstoke (or Newbury) to Reliefs is definitely provided for.

 

[swt_passenger]

You raise an interesting point about level crossings - How many of them are there on each of the route options. I seem to recall spending many happy hours as a motorist pausing at Addlestone and Chertsey Stations.

As hwl has pointed out, the HSR proposals are all about providing a route that doesn’t use the existing level crossings, by putting much of it alongside the M25. I expect this is covered in one of the earlier threads about Southern Access which link to their plans in some detail.

 

[cle]

Then that is not a problem. There is definitely grade separation to/from Reading West and the relief side already as shown in the layout drawing The Ham provided above. There are few current GW services but Basingstoke (or Newbury) to Reliefs is definitely provided for.

Ok got it, in which case my comment doesn't apply about potential conflict at Reading.

In regards to journey times, assuming a call at Woking and Farnborough, and a call at Slough and Reading (for balance) - which would be more competitive to Basingstoke? I think the SWML route would be neater at Basingstoke itself, for through services, but Basingstoke better for terminating. How might this impact the current shuttles (absorb/replace, or co-exist given stopping patterns?)

And is there any capacity through Winchester to head beyond?

 

[swt_passenger]

Ok got it, in which case my comment doesn't apply about potential conflict at Reading.

In regards to journey times, assuming a call at Woking and Farnborough, and a call at Slough and Reading (for balance) - which would be more competitive to Basingstoke? I think the SWML route would be neater at Basingstoke itself, for through services, but Basingstoke better for terminating. How might this impact the current shuttles (absorb/replace, or co-exist given stopping patterns?)

And is there any capacity through Winchester to head beyond?

All good questions - there has been a mention of through services from Southampton to Heathrow via Reading and Western Link in one of the route studies, but generally speaking there are also said to be capacity problems anywhere west of Basingstoke - for example this has always been given as the reason not to extend the second XC Reading service to Southampton. Taking the intermediate calls between Reading and Basingstoke into a through service could be feasible, but the more calls you have the less express it is.

Then you have the added possibility of Basingstoke grade separation, Woking Grade separation, Micheldever extended four tracking, etc etc. All future line capacity changers. I think however it's probably likely that it will only be one route from Basingstoke, whatever that turns out to be.

 

[The Ham]

Ok got it, in which case my comment doesn't apply about potential conflict at Reading.

In regards to journey times, assuming a call at Woking and Farnborough, and a call at Slough and Reading (for balance) - which would be more competitive to Basingstoke? I think the SWML route would be neater at Basingstoke itself, for through services, but Basingstoke better for terminating. How might this impact the current shuttles (absorb/replace, or co-exist given stopping patterns?)

And is there any capacity through Winchester to head beyond?

Based on the fastest option for the southern approach a train running Heathrow, Woking, Farnborough, Basingstoke would be about 7 minutes slower than Heathrow, Slough, Reading, Basingstoke.

If you used the Heathrow services to replace the current Reading-Basingstoke services it would be a comparable time.

It's why I've previously suggested that the Southern Approach Trains should probably call at all stops as those from Basingstoke probably would probably opt to either go via the Western Approach and/or change at Woking. However it would pick up quite a lot of other passengers of it were to do so.