Help! MG11 issued for expired railcard - terrified of criminal record

[helpneededpls]

I’m so stressed

 

[furlong]

Firstly, don't panic. It'll cost you money, but if you browse this part of the forum you'll find lots of examples where the train company on this route settles for an apology together with a payment of the amount of money they've missed out on, plus some costs they claim to have incurred in dealing with it. Typically they'll look up previous times they think you travelled without a valid ticket and add those in.

Write notes for yourself of exactly what happened now - you'll be surprised how quickly you forget. Then wait for the letter.

(For understanding, as soon as one lie is detected, that's a legitimate trigger for writing up for prosecution, as they can no longer trust anything else you say and it justifies a proper investigation by the company.)

 

[helpneededpls]

Firstly, don't panic. It'll cost you money, but if you browse this part of the forum you'll find lots of examples where the train company on this route settles for an apology together with a payment of the amount of money they've missed out on, plus some costs they claim to have incurred in dealing with it. Typically they'll look up previous times they think you travelled without a valid ticket and add those in.

Write notes for yourself of exactly what happened now - you'll be surprised how quickly you forget. Then wait for the letter.

(For understanding, as soon as one lie is detected, that's a legitimate trigger for writing up for prosecution, as they can no longer trust anything else you say and it justifies a proper investigation by the company.)

Thanks for your reply, do you know how long I’ll have to wait for the letter? it’s killing me to think about having to wait for weeks and weeks to get to the end of this

 

[furlong]

Look at those other threads, but it shouldn't take more than a week or two. If it doesn't arrive soon and it's seriously upsetting your mental state, you can try to get in contact with them first but people on the forum don't usually recommend that except using a lawyer because it's difficult to say only the correct things and saying wrong things can make it worse for you.

 

[helpneededpls]

Look at those other threads, but it shouldn't take more than a week or two. If it doesn't arrive soon and it's seriously upsetting your mental state, you can try to get in contact with them first but people on the forum don't usually recommend that except using a lawyer because it's difficult to say only the correct things and saying wrong things can make it worse for you.

Ok, I’m absolutely terrified regarding getting a criminal record - is it normal for them to offer an out of court settlement? I was reading the TfL posts where people were literally given prosecution right away and this is sending me insane

 

[furlong]

Were you given some paperwork? Check what it says. Cambridge to Kings Cross should say GTR (or one of their brands) on it, not TfL. GTR usually offers settlements to people who ask for them.

 

[helpneededpls]

Were you given some paperwork? Check what it says. Cambridge to Kings Cross should say GTR (or one of their brands) on it, not TfL. GTR usually offers settlements to people who ask for them.

It says Govia Thameslink Railway and Witness Statement Receipt on the paperwork

 

[furlong]

Exactly - G T R - so you should be OK as long as you apologise and agree to pay what you owe and their costs. (It's rarely necessary to go into any details about the incident in a reply - they basically just want your money and to be persuaded that you won't cheat them again.) But as you reflect on what you did, and think about how to change your behaviour for your future career, understand that lying about the instant renewal could be considered as an act of dishonesty that changed a simple bit of carelessness (forgetting to renew) into fraud. The saying: "When in a hole, stop digging!" comes to mind. You can probably see direct comparisons with medical situations - the requirement for complete transparency when something goes wrong and not to attempt to cover it up and hope it won't be noticed.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Thankfully for you GTR are one of the more pragmatic train companies when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing. Their letter will typically take a few weeks to arrive and you normally get a couple of weeks to reply. I recommend writing a short, concise reply that includes the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

GTR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. We cannot guarantee this and teh train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court shoudl they decide to do so although I would say this is unlikely.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Brissle Girl]

In addition to @Hadders comment regarding a likely settlement cost, note that the railway typically uses full price single fares to calculate any amount due. If you have done four return journeys then they could ask for 8x29 in unpaid fares, in addition to the admin fee. You would have to pay this quickly, so if you are short of funds it is worth thinking now about how you could have that available, in the event that they make you a settlement offer.

 

[helpneededpls]

Welcome to the forum!

Thankfully for you GTR are one of the more pragmatic train companies when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing. Their letter will typically take a few weeks to arrive and you normally get a couple of weeks to reply. I recommend writing a short, concise reply that includes the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

GTR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. We cannot guarantee this and teh train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court shoudl they decide to do so although I would say this is unlikely.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Many thanks for your reply, this is comforting. Would you say that the likelihood of an outright criminal conviction is probably not going to happen? How often do they just give you one anyway? I’m beside myself with regret and anxiety and I can’t believe I was so stupid. Do I need to contact a lawyer?

 

[helpneededpls]

In addition to @Hadders comment regarding a likely settlement cost, note that the railway typically uses full price single fares to calculate any amount due. If you have done four return journeys then they could ask for 8x29 in unpaid fares, in addition to the admin fee. You would have to pay this quickly, so if you are short of funds it is worth thinking now about how you could have that available, in the event that they make you a settlement offer.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Will having done multiple return journeys with the unknowingly expired railcard reduce the chance of a settlement? I’m wondering if I should contact a lawyer as the criminal conviction would destroy my life

At this stage I would wait until you get the letter, come back here and post it (with personal info redacted), and we can give you help on an appropriate letter to draft. If that is unsuccessful in getting an out of court settlement offer (and on the evidence of cases on this forum, you are likely to get one) then I think that would be the time to get a lawyer involved.

Having accidentally used an expired railcard is highly unlikely to destroy your life. There are some jobs where criminal convictions are clearly of more concern, but here again, there is a difference in forgetting to renew your railcard and (as an example) deliberately short faring or doughnutting to avoid paying the correct fare, and I would hope employers would be understanding of that in assessing the severity of any conviction.

 

[Titfield]

At this stage I would wait until you get the letter, come back here and post it (with personal info redacted), and we can give you help on an appropriate letter to draft. If that is unsuccessful in getting an out of court settlement offer (and on the evidence of cases on this forum, you are likely to get one) then I think that would be the time to get a lawyer involved.

Having accidentally used an expired railcard is highly unlikely to destroy your life. There are some jobs where criminal convictions are clearly of more concern, but here again, there is a difference in forgetting to renew your railcard and (as an example) deliberately short faring or doughnutting to avoid paying the correct fare, and I would hope employers would be understanding of that in assessing the severity of any conviction.

Some regulated occupations use the "Fit and Proper Person" test. Guidance for assessing such matters differentiates between the levels of criminal convictions (severity) and when the conviction became spent. Other matters (non criminal convictions) can be taken into account and are assessed as part of the FPP test. There may be a right of appeal against any regulator who bars you on the basis of a failed FPP test at which you can state your case.

 

[Hadders]

Many thanks for your reply, this is comforting. Would you say that the likelihood of an outright criminal conviction is probably not going to happen? How often do they just give you one anyway? I’m beside myself with regret and anxiety and I can’t believe I was so stupid. Do I need to contact a lawyer?

If you do what I advise upthread, I would expect you to be offered a settlement.

I don’t think there’s anything to gain by contacting a lawyer at this point. Wait for the letter and see what it says. If you get an unfavourable to your reply to their letter then that would be the time to contact a lawyer.

Whatever the outcome, a convocation for a minor railway ticketing issue is highly unlikely to have an impact on your career.

 

[helpneededpls]

If you do what I advise upthread, I would expect you to be offered a settlement.

I don’t think there’s anything to gain by contacting a lawyer at this point. Wait for the letter and see what it says. If you get an unfavourable to your reply to their letter then that would be the time to contact a lawyer.

Whatever the outcome, a convocation for a minor railway ticketing issue is highly unlikely to have an impact on your career.

Thanks for this. Do you know in the case of getting a conviction would this show up on an enhanced DBS check and stop me getting visas for certain countries?

 

[spag23]

To help reassure the OP, we've seen many cases here where the card expiry has been much longer than a month, and far more incorrect journeys made than four, where an out of court settlement has nonetheless been offered.
As an aside, it's interesting that the inspectors are being paired up as "good cop, bad cop". The OP was perhaps unlucky in the order that they approached him/her!

 

[30907]

Thanks for this. Do you know in the case of getting a conviction would this show up on an enhanced DBS check?

If it is a conviction under Railway Byelaws then it should not show up; if under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889(!) it will, but train operators tend to opt for the former which is easy to prove. Neither is likely to have an impact on your career, though concealing a conviction would.

and stop me getting visas for certain countries?

Sorry, above my pay grade

 

[fandroid]

A Railcard a month out of date and 4 return journeys on it are small beer in the world of ticketing irregularities. Your sort of case is very common and exacerbated by Trainline and other online ticket sellers automatically applying the discount when it is no longer valid.

The inspector may have been hostile, but it's likely the GTR office will just see it as business as usual.

I really don't know why the inspector thought they had to give permission for you to renew the Railcard. They could easily find out the previous expiry date and the exact time you renewed, and they did!

 

[Skimpot flyer]

A Railcard a month out of date and 4 return journeys on it are small beer in the world of ticketing irregularities. Your sort of case is very common and exacerbated by Trainline and other online ticket sellers automatically applying the discount when it is no longer valid.

The inspector may have been hostile, but it's likely the GTR office will just see it as business as usual.

I really don't know why the inspector thought they had to give permission for you to renew the Railcard. They could easily find out the previous expiry date and the exact time you renewed, and they did!

and of course, the renewed Railcard couldn’t be backdated, so you still travelled with invalid tickets on all four (five?) occasions

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for this. Do you know in the case of getting a conviction would this show up on an enhanced DBS check and stop me getting visas for certain countries?

We cannot advise on visas but if you are convicted by a court (either because you plead guilty or are found guilty following a trial) then you will have a criminal conviction.

Convictions under the Railway Bylaws aren't normally entered into the Police National Computer and won't normally show on a DBS check. If the conviction is under the Regulation of the Railways Act then this would be enteren on the PNC and would be shown on DBS checks until the conviction was spent.

We would always advise being honest if you are asked whether or not you have been convicted of an offence. A conviction for a minor railway ticketing matter wouldn't normally impact your career.

 

[helpneededpls]

To help reassure the OP, we've seen many cases here where the card expiry has been much longer than a month, and far more incorrect journeys made than four, where an out of court settlement has nonetheless been offered.
As an aside, it's interesting that the inspectors are being paired up as "good cop, bad cop". The OP was perhaps unlucky in the order that they approached him/her!

Thank you

 

[helpneededpls]

I am so upset that I might lose my entire future over a railcard.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hello,

I accidentally forgot to renew my 16-25 railcard on the train (only 1 journey was taken without the railcard as it was only expired for 3 weeks and I did not notice). I got sent the initial letter from govia thameslink, replied with a full response asking for an out of court settlement with photographs of my new railcard and ticket on the day (railcard was renewed on the day, on the train, the same minute of departure, the revenues protections officer came up to me before the train had even left). I got no response and a month later I received a court summons this weekend. I have not been able to eat, sleep or think about anything else as this will result in the loss of my job and I have diagnosed anxiety too. Could hiring a lawyer help me still receive an out of court settlement? Why do you think I was not offered one? My friend had the same thing happen and was offered an out of court settlement so I don't know why my case has been dealt with so differently. I am so upset that I might lose my entire future over a railcard.

Have a look at what people have said above about what damage a conviction will do you: to put it briefly, it’s unlikely to be disastrous.

Something that you do need to know though: looking at the comments and what you now say, it looks as if you have changed your story from this being four incidents to being one. It’s important that you tell the absolute truth to the court: that’s not just because if you appear as a witness you will have to swear or affirm that you will tell the truth, but because courts deal with this sort of thing every day so they are good at telling when someone isn’t telling the truth. And if your employer finds that you weren’t truthful, that could be more of a problem: everyone makes mistakes like not getting the right train tickets - but if you lie to try to hide it then your employer could worry that you will lie at work to hide mistakes there as well. That’s the sort of thing that CAN get you sacked.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I wonder whether they received the letter? Did you send it “signed for”? Have they explicitly acknowledged your response, or simply moved to starting court proceedings? If the latter then I wonder is it worth getting back in touch?

I don’t think we saw your response (we usually encourage people to share it here for comment). Are you able to post it now, along with the latest correspondence, with identifying details removed?

 

[helpneededpls]

They never replied to the letter but it was signed for and received and I sent it off well within the timeframe.