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Heritage railway financial problems.

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Russel

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Ultimately the Severn Valley Railway built the Engine House as somewhere secure to keep the engines that are not operational and awaiting their next overhaul. They would need a building of that sort regardless of whether it is an attraction in its own right. Making it into a museum increases its utility and brought in funding.

It also has a cafe and gift shop that will generate income and encourages people to get off at Highley, which, otherwise is in the middle of nowhere.

Other than electric for the lighting and the cleaning bill, I doubt it's a big expense to keep open overall.
 
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30907

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It also has a cafe and gift shop that will generate income and encourages people to get off at Highley, which, otherwise is in the middle of nowhere.

Other than electric for the lighting and the cleaning bill, I doubt it's a big expense to keep open overall.
Thanks for the clarification. In that respect it is similar to the KWVR Exhibition Shed at Oxenhope (which also multitasks as a catering venue, reception for Santa, base for film crews etc etc.) rather than the superb VCT Rail Story at Ingrow.

More generally, heritage railways need - from a grant-giver's viewpoint - to be seen to making their heritage "accessible" to the general visitor, hence the proliferation of explanatory signage to help their understanding. I could imagine the Engine House ticking that box, too..
 

Russel

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Thanks for the clarification. In that respect it is similar to the KWVR Exhibition Shed at Oxenhope (which also multitasks as a catering venue, reception for Santa, base for film crews etc etc.) rather than the superb VCT Rail Story at Ingrow.

More generally, heritage railways need - from a grant-giver's viewpoint - to be seen to making their heritage "accessible" to the general visitor, hence the proliferation of explanatory signage to help their understanding. I could imagine the Engine House ticking that box, too..

The catering, I have to admit, wasn't the best, I ordered a scotch egg that was hard enough to be used as a cricket ball and a latte that was almost cold.
 

Heritage-DMU

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It also has a cafe and gift shop that will generate income and encourages people to get off at Highley, which, otherwise is in the middle of nowhere.

Other than electric for the lighting and the cleaning bill, I doubt it's a big expense to keep open overall.
I heard somewhere that the gift shop has been closed.
 

railfan99

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The SVR have the engine house, it's a museum, at Highley. I would have thought that mothballing would significantly reduce Electric and heating costs plus from FB posts the time and effort of volunteers keeping it clean and engines polished could be used for operational requirements. This facility whilst a great facility and brings revenue in does it really cover its overheads and I immahine the vast majority of people go to the SVR to ride a train and would still do so if the museum was closed.

Which reminds me: didn't SVR state it incurs over GBP500,000 per annum in electricity costs?

Being a foreigner, I don't know how much it's charged per kilowatt hour, but like most medium to larger users in Western countries it would probably be on a special plan.

Its costs are GBP1400 a day yet SVR doesn't run every day.

Apart from its stations, depot and museum(s), where would it spend money on electricity? It seems an enormous amount. Is the management trying to control costs or just wasting money?

That's entirely understandable: if you are giving your own time, for free, as a volunteer, you're going to be pretty hacked off very quickly if you're doing something you don't like. Railway management need to understand that - it is totally different from dealing with paid staff as volunteers hold the balance of power in the relationship

While overseas comparisons will always be partilally defective, what was the most popular heritage line worldwide pre-COVID, Puffing Billy in Melbourne, Australia, went dramatically downhill after the Board and management changed. Volunteers left in droves, but the costs of operation continued to rise. This was a special case, as it was due to a scandal, but even so, it shows the nexus between too many paid 'chiefs' and insufficient 'indians'.

Are the problems SVR and separately WSR incurring due to too many paid administrative staff? I don't have an easy solution but many non-railway groups try to maximise volunteers in some of these types of positions.
 
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birchesgreen

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Which reminds me: didn't SVR state it incurs over GBP500,000 per annum in electricity costs?

Being a foreigner, I don't know how much it's charged per kilowatt hour, but like most medium to larger users in Western countries it would probably be on a special plan.

Its costs are GBP1400 a day yet SVR doesn't run every day.
It does seem a lot but they do have 6 stations (plus a couple of halts, i don't think they have any electric needs), 2 depots, a goods yard, coach shed, the museum, the engine house and various other properties. It all adds up i bet.
 

paul1609

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Which reminds me: didn't SVR state it incurs over GBP500,000 per annum in electricity costs?

Being a foreigner, I don't know how much it's charged per kilowatt hour, but like most medium to larger users in Western countries it would probably be on a special plan.

Its costs are GBP1400 a day yet SVR doesn't run every day.

Apart from its stations, depot and museum(s), where would it spend money on electricity? It seems an enormous amount. Is the management trying to control costs or just wasting money?
All Users in the UK are paying a huge premium on electricity because of the war in Ukraine. How much preserved railways are paying depends to a lot where they were in their electricity contract cycle when the invasion happened. The competitive electricity market at that time effectively collapsed because consumers were paying less than the wholesale price.
Stuff like heritage railway signalling tends to be very inefficient, it accounts for around a third of electricity consumption at my railway. It tends to be left on 24/7 because of things like track circuits that if switched off for a couple of days they won't just come back on and the amount of work required to recommission them is huge.
We pay 0,85 aus dollars /kwh for our electricity peak at my railway currently.
 
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stuu

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The wholesale price of electricity today is about a quarter of what it was in December, so that should feed through to bills later this year, so there is some light on the horizon
 

railfan99

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We pay 0,85 aus dollars /kwh for our electricity peak at my railway currently.

My comparison is not 'like for like' as it's two different nations but one basic plan from my electricity retailer (which is in a dergulated market) gives me electricity all day and night for A$0.217 cents per kilowatt hour, a quarter of what this UK business (SVR) pays. A supply charge of A$1.16 a day applies. This is a domestic tariff: commercial is normally higher, but IIRC is nowhere near the rate in GBP that SVR pays.

Now that you've explained it, easier to see why SVR's daily bill is high.

While I was never concerned about the fares, although many others will be, it shows why heritage railways like WSR charge GBP30 return for an adult.

Good to hear from stuu that in time, the bill may lessen. Let's hope so!
 

43066

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My comparison is not 'like for like' as it's two different nations but one basic plan from my electricity retailer (which is in a dergulated market) gives me electricity all day and night for A$0.217 cents per kilowatt hour, a quarter of what this UK business (SVR) pays. A supply charge of A$1.16 a day applies. This is a domestic tariff: commercial is normally higher, but IIRC is nowhere near the rate in GBP that SVR pays.

Now that you've explained it, easier to see why SVR's daily bill is high.

While I was never concerned about the fares, although many others will be, it shows why heritage railways like WSR charge GBP30 return for an adult.

Good to hear from stuu that in time, the bill may lessen. Let's hope so!

Coal has also *massively* increased in price, and there’s also the issue that Welsh coal which most UK steam locos worked on is no longer available (a proposal to open a small mine just for the heritage sector was vetoed by the Welsh government). So costs are up across the board.
 

railfan99

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Coal has also *massively* increased in price, and there’s also the issue that Welsh coal which most UK steam locos worked on is no longer available (a proposal to open a small mine just for the heritage sector was vetoed by the). So costs are up across the board.

I read heritage railways were obtaining coal (in 2022?) from Russia and Kazakhstan.

With sanctions, I assume Russia is no longer a possible supplier, so from where is coal imported in 2023?

Australia is supplying much more thermal coal to Europe than ever before, but production is mostly fully committed (very good Asian demand). Steam locos need a special grade. There's at least one mine (Ravensworth) in NSW's Hunter Valley that has this specification but a long and costly journey by bulk ships from Newcastle, Australia (busiest coal port worldwide) to UK.
 

Ken H

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The wholesale price of electricity today is about a quarter of what it was in December, so that should feed through to bills later this year, so there is some light on the horizon
But, but standing charges....
 

Ken H

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I read heritage railways were obtaining coal (in 2022?) from Russia and Kazakhstan.

With sanctions, I assume Russia is no longer a possible supplier, so from where is coal imported in 2023?

Australia is supplying much more thermal coal to Europe than ever before, but production is mostly fully committed (very good Asian demand). Steam locos need a special grade. There's at least one mine (Ravensworth) in NSW's Hunter Valley that has this specification but a long and costly journey by bulk ships from Newcastle, Australia (busiest coal port worldwide) to UK.
Wont steam engines run on lower grade coal or even briquettes. They are not required to run at 60mph.

Re the SVR and leccy. I bet they are paying standing charges at each location. I wonder how many meters they have.
 

paul1609

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My comparison is not 'like for like' as it's two different nations but one basic plan from my electricity retailer (which is in a dergulated market) gives me electricity all day and night for A$0.217 cents per kilowatt hour, a quarter of what this UK business (SVR) pays. A supply charge of A$1.16 a day applies. This is a domestic tariff: commercial is normally higher, but IIRC is nowhere near the rate in GBP that SVR pays.

Now that you've explained it, easier to see why SVR's daily bill is high.

While I was never concerned about the fares, although many others will be, it shows why heritage railways like WSR charge GBP30 return for an adult.

Good to hear from stuu that in time, the bill may lessen. Let's hope so!
The 0.85 aus$ rate that I mentioned above is nett of government support and was negotiated on a 1 year contract in March this year. The govt support is only guaranteed until June so its likely that in the short term at least costs have still to increase. We've budgeted on the worst case scenario ie no government support so we will be okay but other projects have been deferred/ cancelled to pay for this. If I was a betting man I would say that heritage railway fares will have to see substantial rises again next season. No railway is going to break even at the £30 return you mention.My next batch of electricity contracts come up at the end of September where we are currently paying below the market rate, it will be interesting to see what happens then!
 

railfan99

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The 0.85 aus$ rate that I mentioned above is nett of government support and was negotiated on a 1 year contract in March this year. The govt support is only guaranteed until June so its likely that in the short term at least costs have still to increase. We've budgeted on the worst case scenario ie no government support so we will be okay but other projects have been deferred/ cancelled to pay for this.

While I am most certainly NOT a global warming alarmist, has K&ESR and other heritage railways done what they can to minimise electricity usage such as in museums/stations where possible (provided it doesn't upset the heritage theme) changing light globes to LEDs and so on?
 

paul1609

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While I am most certainly NOT a global warming alarmist, has K&ESR and other heritage railways done what they can to minimise electricity usage such as in museums/stations where possible (provided it doesn't upset the heritage theme) changing light globes to LEDs and so on?
At the Kesr yes for many years, having said that lighting has never been a large percentage of power consumption.
 

railfan99

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At the Kesr yes for many years, having said that lighting has never been a large percentage of power consumption.

Is the majority of spending on electricity due to the operation of specialised equipment in your workshop(s) as you repair and/or restore locomotives, carriages and wagons? Plus heating of station offices and enclosed public areas if you are unable to use natural gas?
 

Gostav

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I think one of the biggest quetion is that most of the heritage railways in the UK are just a kind of linear museum what the line does not to anywhere, and visitors comming just for ride on heritage trains. This single mode of operation may not be a problem for small heritage railways but for some long lines, especially over 15 miles such as Severn Valley Railway,it is very doubtful that only by the income and donations of heritage trains running will be affordable the costs of the whole line which also violates the essence of being a railway as a traffic line.
 
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railfan99

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I think one of the biggest quetion is that most of the heritage railways in the UK are just a kind of linear museum what the line does not to anywhere, and visitors comming just for ride on heritage trains. This single mode of operation may not be a problem for small heritage railways but for some long lines, especially over 15 miles such as Severn Valley Railway,it is very doubtful that only by the income and donations of heritage trains running will be affordable the costs of the whole line which also violates the essence of being a railway as a traffic line.

But some longer ones such as SVR and WSR have towns (Brignorth, which I've not had time to explore) and Minehead, at which I stayed overnight last year) that are in themselves destinations.

I appreciate if you live in UK, Brignorth may be 'just another village' but it must be charming, and Minehead is a seaside destination with a wide range of restaurants and even a Butlin's Holiday Park.
 

tomuk

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But some longer ones such as SVR and WSR have towns (Brignorth, which I've not had time to explore) and Minehead, at which I stayed overnight last year) that are in themselves destinations.

I appreciate if you live in UK, Brignorth may be 'just another village' but it must be charming, and Minehead is a seaside destination with a wide range of restaurants and even a Butlin's Holiday Park.
Bridgnorth is a market town of about 12,000 pop rather than a village on the banks of the River Severn.
bridgnorth.jpg


Aerial view courtesy of About Bridgnorth
 

SLC001

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Perhaps slightly off topic, plans are afoot for Bridgnorth to have its first McDonalds and Starbucks which says a lot about the town which is pleasant enough but without the railway not a natural destination for tourists.

Pre covid, we stayed at Minehead but were not over impressed but we are dog walkers and not sunbathers. My wife and I like heritage railways and indeed used to regularly visit the GCR at Rothley where we lived and so while in Minehead we considered riding on the ESR but we found it difficult to make a day of it partly because of the need to exercise the dogs (which were extra IIRC) and uncertain as to what we would find at Bishops Lydeard. It lacked that decisive factor to make us change our mind. Yes, Minehead station was well worth seeing and the sight and sound of trains in the distance as we walked the hills charming but we put no money their way that fortnight. In contrast, the SVR is somewhere where we could make a day but only because we know the area, its stations and museum. It is much about marketing as trying to sell an experience, how can you make a day of it and appeal to those of one's family who are not so interested in long rides in pleasant countryside travelling at just 25mph.
 

birchesgreen

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The problem with Bridgnorth is that it is a bit awkward to get to from the SVR station, either a steep walk uphill or down a rather pedestrian unfriendly pavement down to river level and find the cliff railway (though that is an attraction in itself).
 

stuu

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Perhaps slightly off topic, plans are afoot for Bridgnorth to have its first McDonalds and Starbucks which says a lot about the town which is pleasant enough but without the railway not a natural destination for tourists.

Pre covid, we stayed at Minehead but were not over impressed but we are dog walkers and not sunbathers. My wife and I like heritage railways and indeed used to regularly visit the GCR at Rothley where we lived and so while in Minehead we considered riding on the ESR but we found it difficult to make a day of it partly because of the need to exercise the dogs (which were extra IIRC) and uncertain as to what we would find at Bishops Lydeard. It lacked that decisive factor to make us change our mind. Yes, Minehead station was well worth seeing and the sight and sound of trains in the distance as we walked the hills charming but we put no money their way that fortnight. In contrast, the SVR is somewhere where we could make a day but only because we know the area, its stations and museum. It is much about marketing as trying to sell an experience, how can you make a day of it and appeal to those of one's family who are not so interested in long rides in pleasant countryside travelling at just 25mph.
That's a fair point about the WSR. They would probably be better off just running Minehead-Watchet for a lot of people. A shorter, cheaper journey to somewhere that is a bit more of a destination might even get more people through the doors.

I have often thought that returning the branch to NR for through services from Taunton would be best, with heritage services along the coastal section, a bit like to Whitby, would be the best outcome.
 

paul1609

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Is the majority of spending on electricity due to the operation of specialised equipment in your workshop(s) as you repair and/or restore locomotives, carriages and wagons? Plus heating of station offices and enclosed public areas if you are unable to use natural gas?
Yes, plus as Ive already said Signalling and Telegraph. The transformers powering track circuits and relay racks are on 24/7/365
Refrigeration and Cooking for our large catering effort. To an extent preheating Pullman Dining Trains.
Water and dirty water treatment. The modern buildings are a lot more thermally efficient that the historic buildings which in the UK are difficult to insulate without causing damage through Damp and Humidity problems.
 

Titfield

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That's a fair point about the WSR. They would probably be better off just running Minehead-Watchet for a lot of people. A shorter, cheaper journey to somewhere that is a bit more of a destination might even get more people through the doors.

I have often thought that returning the branch to NR for through services from Taunton would be best, with heritage services along the coastal section, a bit like to Whitby, would be the best outcome.

Whilst running Minehead - Watchet probably makes economic sense it would demoralise the volunteer workforce who may then decide to vote with their feet.

Again the volunteer workforce would probably be very much against any form of sharing or giving up what they have sweated blood, toiled and shed tears over.
 

D6130

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plans are afoot for Bridgnorth to have its first McDonalds and Starbucks
Oh dear....that's the beginning of the end then! Hopefully those plans will be resisted - or it will become just another 'Anytown, UK'.
The problem with Bridgnorth is that it is a bit awkward to get to from the SVR station, either a steep walk uphill or down a rather pedestrian unfriendly pavement down to river level and find the cliff railway (though that is an attraction in itself).
It's well worth making the effort though as, in addition to the SVR and the aforementioned cliff railway, Bridgnorth has a fine 17th century neo-classical church (seen in the foreground of the aerial photo) and an unusual ruined castle (seen in the background) with the most steeply-inclined leaning tower in the UK. There are lots of old houses and shops, pubs and restaurants and a very friendly, bustling atmosphere on market day. IMHO, it's a very worthwhile destination for a trip on the SVR.
That's a fair point about the WSR. They would probably be better off just running Minehead-Watchet for a lot of people. A shorter, cheaper journey to somewhere that is a bit more of a destination might even get more people through the doors.
I would agree that Watchet is probably the nicest destination on the WSR, with its quaint fishing harbour and pubs and restaurants....and the station is slap bang in the centre of the village, unlike at Dunster, where there is a long walk to the village and the castle. Bishops Lydeard is fine if you like real ale and cider, as the brewery is a stone's throw from the station but, IIRC, there's not a lot else there.
 

birchesgreen

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It's well worth making the effort though as, in addition to the SVR and the aforementioned cliff railway, Bridgnorth has a fine 17th century neo-classical church (seen in the foreground of the aerial photo) and an unusual ruined castle (seen in the background) with the most steeply-inclined leaning tower in the UK. There are lots of old houses and shops, pubs and restaurants and a very friendly, bustling atmosphere on market day. IMHO, it's a very worthwhile destination for a trip on the SVR.
Yes, i've been myself a number of times but i was thinking of the POV of the kind of "normals" the SVR need to attract as listed earlier in the thread such as elderly groups of people and families with small children.
 

John Luxton

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Yes, plus as Ive already said Signalling and Telegraph. The transformers powering track circuits and relay racks are on 24/7/365
Refrigeration and Cooking for our large catering effort. To an extent preheating Pullman Dining Trains.
Water and dirty water treatment. The modern buildings are a lot more thermally efficient that the historic buildings which in the UK are difficult to insulate without causing damage through Damp and Humidity problems.
Could some heritage railways not do more to generate their own energy using solar panels. Quite a few lines have modern ancilliary buildings used for workshops etc these would in particular lend themselves to having solar panels fitted as they would not impact on the appearance of traditional structures. Even roofs of traditional buildings could be used if the panels were not visible from normal viewing locations.

Perhaps slightly off topic, plans are afoot for Bridgnorth to have its first McDonalds and Starbucks which says a lot about the town which is pleasant enough but without the railway not a natural destination for tourists.

Pre covid, we stayed at Minehead but were not over impressed but we are dog walkers and not sunbathers. My wife and I like heritage railways and indeed used to regularly visit the GCR at Rothley where we lived and so while in Minehead we considered riding on the ESR but we found it difficult to make a day of it partly because of the need to exercise the dogs (which were extra IIRC) and uncertain as to what we would find at Bishops Lydeard. It lacked that decisive factor to make us change our mind. Yes, Minehead station was well worth seeing and the sight and sound of trains in the distance as we walked the hills charming but we put no money their way that fortnight. In contrast, the SVR is somewhere where we could make a day but only because we know the area, its stations and museum. It is much about marketing as trying to sell an experience, how can you make a day of it and appeal to those of one's family who are not so interested in long rides in pleasant countryside travelling at just 25mph.
I would not say getting a McDonalds is a sign of progress! :D On my visits to the West Country I stay near Tavistock. Tavistock is known as the town that booted out Mc Donald's as long ago as 2006. It is a lovely place slightly larger population wise than Bridgnorth. There are a couple of supermarkets on the fringes of the town but it is very much a traditional small shop keeper's town with plenty of butchers, bakers etc. There are three pasty outlets as well which given its prominence during the heyday of mining in the adjacent Tamar Valley is no surprise. There are plenty of foodie opportunities their to eat in or take away - but its McDonald's essential? No I think not and I dare say a few others would say the same.

Whilst running Minehead - Watchet probably makes economic sense it would demoralise the volunteer workforce who may then decide to vote with their feet.

Again the volunteer workforce would probably be very much against any form of sharing or giving up what they have sweated blood, toiled and shed tears over.
Short running isn't a good idea. It has been adopted by a well known operation in the top left corner of Wales and on certain days one can't get a full run in - just shuttles. The action is divisive and seems to split supporters' opinions. Some argue it safeguards the financial future in uncertain times - but there are plenty who are moaning about it.

As for letting Network Rail in that is a different matter.

I really enjoy visiting heritage railways and have visited standard gauge lines every year ever since my parents took me to the then recently reopened Dart Valley in 1969.

However, I have always looked on heritage lines as keeping something going when the national system rejected it and as a consequence preserved the right of way and maintained the infrastructure.

If it became desirable to assimilate a heritage line back into the network or perhaps share it for commuter services I would very much welcome it.

The nearest that he have had to this situation so far is the Dartmoor Line which has gone from failed heritage to successful reincorporation into the network. I would far sooner go to Okehampton station when I am in the area and catch an hourly GWR DMU 7 days a week that turn up on the odd weekend of operation and get trundled up to Meldon Viaduct or down to Sampford Courtenay with a class 08 or hired in tank engine.

Given that Bridgnorth is twice the population size of Okehampton and Bewdley is also significantly larger could there not be an argument for bringing the SVR back on to the network perhaps as a shared venture with Network Rail picking up on some of the maintenance costs.
 
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nanstallon

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That's a fair point about the WSR. They would probably be better off just running Minehead-Watchet for a lot of people. A shorter, cheaper journey to somewhere that is a bit more of a destination might even get more people through the doors.

I have often thought that returning the branch to NR for through services from Taunton would be best, with heritage services along the coastal section, a bit like to Whitby, would be the best outcome.
I agree, but do you think NR would want the Minehead branch? Or do some of the bus drivers on that route belong to the RMT and want their jobs preserved - remember the NUR stopping the WSR from running into Taunton for that reason in the 70s?
 

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Some argue it safeguards the financial future in uncertain times - but there are plenty who are moaning about it.
You can't have a railway without moaning! And I think the financials bear out the success at maximising revenue by running part-route only on certain days.
 
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