His Majesty The King: Royal Train

[railfan99]

When Her Majesty The Queen died, the Royal Train wasn't used.

I assume King Charles III has been on it many times as a child.

How long is it since he's been on it when he was the Prince of Wales?

In the current climate of austerity in your nations, is the Royal Train likely to gather cobwebs for a long time, or is it possible it might see occasional use?

Has the Palace or media said much or anything about it either prior to or since the Coronation?

 

[8A Rail]

There is no mention of the 'Royal Train' being mothballed as I imagine it will be used by the King and Queen as and when required, just like Queen Elizabeth. I think once the dust has settled from all things 'Coronation' and the monarchy get into some sort of routine for day to day business, I think it will only then you will see some usage of the train.

 

[JonathanH]

I assume King Charles III has been on it many times as a child

He has his own coach, which he has used numerous times as a senior member of the Royal Family.

Carriages 2922 and 2923 were new build for Charles, as Prince of Wales, although Wikipedia indicates that he is now allocated coach 2903, previously the Queen's coach, rebuilt from a former prototype HST coach.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can't put a date on it but Charles was a quite recent user of the royal train on his visits around the country (as Prince of Wales).
Hopefully this will continue now he is King.
William (now Prince of Wales) might also use it more.

 

[Thomas6187]

Charles used it to travel to Manchester Victoria in late January

 

[dk1]

Charles always seems to enjoy using the Royal Train. Long May that continue.

 

[railfan99]

Charles always seems to enjoy using the Royal Train. Long May that continue.

That's great. Many Britons and foreigners alike, including young children, would enjoy watching the Royal Train go by, so although it might cost a fair bit to operate, it has a 'value' beyond where the King, Queen and others may be visiting.

A positive for rail.

Prior to becoming King, Charles has made a point of shaking peoples' hands when walking along streets for a 'meet and greet', so a different appropach to the late Queen, but good.

 

[fgwrich]

Charles always seems to enjoy using the Royal Train. Long May that continue.

Indeed. I do wonder if he will ask for a refurbishment at some point in the near future though, from what I’ve been allowed to see of it it is quite dated inside!

 

[dk1]

Indeed. I do wonder if he will ask for a refurbishment at some point in the near future though, from what I’ve been allowed to see of it it is quite dated inside!

Possibly although even if dated it will be in perfect working order.

 

[Magdalia]

Who uses the Royal Train for Royal engagements has varied over the years.

In the 1960s, in addition to HM Queen Elizabeth II and HRH the Duke of Edinburgh, HM the Queen Mother was a frequent user.

In the 1970s, when the then HRH Prince of Wales and Princess Anne reached adulthood, both became frequent users.

In the 1980s the Princess of Wales also used the Royal Train including sometimes for solo engagements.

At some point, possibly triggered by sectorisation or privatisation, use was confined to HM Queen Elizabeth II, HRH the Duke of Edinburgh and HRH Prince of Wales.

As a result, as far as I am aware the then Duke and Duchess of Cambridge have only used the Royal Train once, for their national tour during COVID.

The key question for the future of the Royal Train is not use by King Charles III, it is whether the new Prince and Princess of Wales start to use it.

 

[zwk500]

Charles is very fond of the royal train, and likes to use it to showcase green credentials at times.

Parliament permits only the Monarch and the Prince of Wales to use it regularly for cost reasons, anybody else requires special permission.

However the train is often a logistical headache for the Royal arrangements with security and transport, being constrained by the natural characteristics of a rail network. The royal train can also be quite disruptive to ordinary train traffic, and spotters have a habit of using Opensource train maps like OTT or Traksy to work out if it might be out and about and then publicise it. It is often far easier to use a car or helicopter.

IIRC the train is largely formed of modified prototype HST Mk3 vehicles, and will be needing a refresh or replacement at some point not too far down the line.

Many Britons and foreigners alike, including young children, would enjoy watching the Royal Train go by, so although it might cost a fair bit to operate, it has a 'value' beyond where the King, Queen and others may be visiting.

It has a certain value above what it costs but fundamentally 99.9% of the population are completely unaware of the existence of the Royal Train. The Coronation would likely have been the first time many people realised a dedicated set existed.

The late Queen would occasionally use a service train to King's Lynn when travelling to Sandringham, I believe with the coach locked out and a fair number of heavies around. I don't know the precise reasons for why the Royal train wasn't used.

 

[Benters]

Would showcasing the King's green credentials extend to the use of electric locos on each end of the train in place of Class 67s when it's under the wires?

 

[dk1]

Would showcasing the King's green credentials extend to the use of electric locos on each end of the train in place of Class 67s when it's under the wires?

Not always practical.

 

[zwk500]

Would showcasing the King's green credentials extend to the use of electric locos on each end of the train in place of Class 67s when it's under the wires?

I believe it's been talked about but there is a security concern about the train being stranded. DB Cargo run the train, and they're not in line to get any bi-modes yet so we shall have to wait a while. Even so, a Class 67 fully under the wires is probably better environmentally than a Helicopter flight.

Also Charles's green credentials have sometimes come second to his love of British engineering, and the train has been hauled by a few Steam Locos over the years (IIRC Charles has been on the footplate of Tornado for at least one run).

 

[Mag_seven]

I believe it's been talked about but there is a security concern about the train being stranded.

Wasn't a concern back in the day when Class 87s used to regularly haul the Royal train.

 

[zwk500]

Wasn't a concern back in the day when Class 87s used to regularly haul the Royal train.

Presumably security concerns have gradually tightened up, and also DB Cargo will be less sure of getting a rescue diesel out to the train quickly if there was a problem, whereas BR could have grabbed the nearest loco.

 

[43096]

IIRC the train is largely formed of modified prototype HST Mk3 vehicles, and will be needing a refresh or replacement at some point not too far down the line.

Only two vehicles are from the prototype HST. They don’t incur high mileages and spend most of their time inside, so the need to replace isn’t great.

 

[dk1]

Wasn't a concern back in the day when Class 87s used to regularly haul the Royal train.

Times have greatly changed not least on the railway where diesel locomotive availability is not what it was in those days. Very different world in so many ways.

 

[Mikey C]

The late Queen would occasionally use a service train to King's Lynn when travelling to Sandringham, I believe with the coach locked out and a fair number of heavies around. I don't know the precise reasons for why the Royal train wasn't used.

It's a lot easier logistically using a normal train I guess, especially as the Queen was travelling off duty, whereas it would be a bit underwhelming for the crowds at an event if the Queen stepped off a 365 or even a 700!

 

[dk1]

It's a lot easier logistically using a normal train I guess, especially as the Queen was travelling off duty, whereas it would be a bit underwhelming for the crowds at an event if the Queen stepped off a 365 or even a 700!

Was always a class 365/387 with HM in the first class section at one end. If the likes of Prince Harry travelled then they would have that section again but with other passengers permitted to travel in the adjoining standard class section with royal security staff between the two.

 

[The Puddock]

Times have greatly changed not least on the railway where diesel locomotive availability is not what it was in those days. Very different world in so many ways.

I agree with this to an extent but the last time an electric loco hauled the Royal Train was 19th/20th November 2014 when 90035 worked it between Euston and Mossend and back again for the late Queen and Duke of Edinburgh’s tour of RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Kinloss. Interestingly the unwired portion of the journey was worked by 67005 alone and included a run round move.

 

[CardiffKid]

The late Queen would occasionally use a service train to King's Lynn when travelling to Sandringham, I believe with the coach locked out and a fair number of heavies around. I don't know the precise reasons for why the Royal train wasn't used.

It's a lot easier logistically using a normal train I guess, especially as the Queen was travelling off duty, whereas it would be a bit underwhelming for the crowds at an event if the Queen stepped off a 365 or even a 700!

The late Queen travelling to Sandringham would indeed be a private visit and not an official visit, hence the non use of the Royal Train.

 

[Magdalia]

The late Queen would occasionally use a service train to King's Lynn when travelling to Sandringham, I believe with the coach locked out and a fair number of heavies around. I don't know the precise reasons for why the Royal train wasn't used.

It's a lot easier logistically using a normal train I guess, especially as the Queen was travelling off duty, whereas it would be a bit underwhelming for the crowds at an event if the Queen stepped off a 365 or even a 700!

The late Queen travelling to Sandringham would indeed be a private visit and not an official visit, hence the non use of the Royal Train.

Visits of the Wolverton Royal Train to the Fens were quite unusual, and only for overnight trips. A long while ago it could also be used for family events such as weddings and birthday parties, not just official engagements. For example there was a Wolferton-Romsey and return in January 1960 for the wedding of Earl Mountbatten's daughter. HM Queen Elizabeth II's last train journey was to Kings Lynn from Edinburgh on 1 July 2022 using the Royal Train.

But daytime journeys between London and Sandringham have never used the Wolverton Royal Train. At Nationalisation the LNER still had its own Royal Train and the East Coast Joint Stock saloons 395 and 396 were kept at Bounds Green for daytime use until 1973. Frequently these were attached to timetabled services.

It is very difficult to find out what happened after 1973 because the "troubles" meant that journeys were not publicised.

The first known use of class 365 formed service trains for HM Queen Elizabeth II's journeys between London and Sandringham is 2009, but press reports suggest that it had been happening for a while before that, but without any publicity. The journeys to and from Sandringham for the Christmas/New Year holiday then became an annual feature until covid. The last 3 years of Christmas/New Year holiday journeys were on class 387s.

 

[43066]

That's great. Many Britons and foreigners alike, including young children, would enjoy watching the Royal Train go by, so although it might cost a fair bit to operate, it has a 'value' beyond where the King, Queen and others may be visiting.

I understand the royal train’s movements generally aren’t publicised for security reasons, so this in itself probably isn’t a strong argument in its favour.

 

[43096]

The first known use of class 365 formed service trains for HM Queen Elizabeth II's journeys between London and Sandringham is 2009, but press reports suggest that it had been happening for a while before that, but without any publicity. The journeys to and from Sandringham for the Christmas/New Year holiday then became an annual feature until covid. The last 3 years of Christmas/New Year holiday journeys were on class 387s.

Reportedly, Queen Elizabeth II let it be known that she viewed the 387s as a serious downgrade from the 365s. She was correct!

 

[zwk500]

I understand the royal trains movements generally aren’t publicised for security reasons, so this in itself probably isn’t a strong argument in its favour.

The security arrangements surrounding the distribution of the schedules are, in theory, quite strict.

 

[wilbers]

The late Queen travelling to Sandringham would indeed be a private visit and not an official visit, hence the non use of the Royal Train.

Wonder if she (and accompanying entourage) were issued with tickets for that, likely with 100% discount?

 

[43066]

The security arrangements surrounding the distribution of the schedules are, in theory, quite strict.

Understandably so. I understand its “scrambled” on the data feeds driving Open Time Trains etc.

 

[zwk500]

Understandably so. I understand its “scrambled” on the data feeds driving Open Time Trains etc.

I think the scrambling is more to do with the freight obfuscation - AIUI the headcode isn't meant to be publicly visible at all.

Without going into too much detail, I think the essence of it is that each person is only sent the bits that relate to their area/part of the job, and as it gets passed along the chain each person is meant to trim it down to make sure that nobody sees more than they are meant to.

 

[The Puddock]

He has his own coach, which he has used numerous times as a senior member of the Royal Family.

Carriages 2922 and 2923 were new build for Charles, as Prince of Wales, although Wikipedia indicates that he is now allocated coach 2903, previously the Queen's coach, rebuilt from a former prototype HST coach.

I think the change to Wikipedia is the result of an over-keen enthusiast adding two and two together to make five, rather than having been confirmed officially. I would have thought that the King would prefer to keep his own vehicles, which are furnished and appointed to his own taste (notice the small droplight windows that are always open, whenever he travels by road or rail he always has the window open) rather than adopting his late mother's coach. It will be interesting to see what happens with the fleet in years to come - I wonder if any thought has been given to what vehicles the new Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh may use, if they do start to use the Train. I'd expect 2903 and 2904 to be withdrawn and eventually be donated to the NRM collection.

At some point, possibly triggered by sectorisation or privatisation, use was confined to HM Queen Elizabeth II, HRH the Duke of Edinburgh and HRH Prince of Wales.

The future of the Royal Train was in real jeopardy at privatisation because the operation didn't fit neatly into the new industry structure. At the same time the government was looking to drastically cut back the Sovereign grant and that's what led to the restriction on who can use the Train and the publishing of the annual costs for royal travel, including the Train. It was the tenacity of one manager - Phil Marsh - who saved the Train at privatisation and created the contractual and operational structure that allows it to run today. He wrote about it in his book The Full Works, celebrating 175 years of Wolverton Works which you can still pick up online.

Without going into too much detail, I think the essence of it is that each person is only sent the bits that relate to their area/part of the job, and as it gets passed along the chain each person is meant to trim it down to make sure that nobody sees more than they are meant to.

Royal Train Notices are meant to be redacted to just the appropriate portion for each recipient but it isn't universally followed. Signallers generally aren't issued with the Notice at all and just get an extract showing timings through their area of control only, making no reference to the fact that it is the Royal Train. The schedule is always suppressed on TRUST (and has been for decades) but the headcode will still appear in the train describer open data feed because of the way the system works.