History of services from Euston to Manchester - routings

[Jamesrob637]

It pops up frequently, in all sorts of places, occasionally here, which implies to me there's "something" in it in terms of historical statements, agreements, documents or whatever. Maybe it's like one of these covenants you discover with a competent solicitor when you buy a house, which is exceptionally unlikely ever to be enforced, and for which you sometimes take out a cheap insurance policy.
Whatever the case, it's definitely not true these days that all trains must stop at Stockport, it's just that all or almost all of them do anyway.
In the 2018 timetable, I think, there were a number of local services which didn't, mainly because they couldn't be crammed into the timetable without eliminating some stops from the normal pattern, there was a morning service Alderley Edge to Manchester which didn't call at Stockport, for example.
It'll pop up again here in a few months I bet!

EDIT 2H99 07:29 Alderley Edge to Piccadilly in the 2020 timetable:
View attachment 146229

There used to be a Northern train around midday or 1pm pre-COVID that didn't call at SPT. Could have come from Stoke or Crewe. Anyway, that's for another thread.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Wasn't there HSTs from Euston to Manchester till about 2003?

 

[jfollows]

Wasn't there HSTs from Euston to Manchester till about 2003?

Virgin Trains: Early Days

Some of my earliest railway memories are of being taken trainspotting at Lichfield Trent Valley and Stafford by grandparents in the late 90s, and watching the procession of loco hauled expresses storm through. A few questions in the period: - My vague memory of the time is that 86s and mk2s...

www.railforums.co.uk

In the past, there have also been occasional diversions from Sandbach via Middlewich, Northwich and Altrincham - probably before Metrolink, so they could continue via Oxford Road to Manchester Piccadilly.

The one time I did it the train was routed Manchester-Stockport-Altrincham-Northwich-Sandbach, but I'm not saying that the route through Sale couldn't have been used.

 

[Lost property]

It pops up frequently, in all sorts of places, occasionally here, which implies to me there's "something" in it in terms of historical statements, agreements, documents or whatever. Maybe it's like one of these covenants you discover with a competent solicitor when you buy a house, which is exceptionally unlikely ever to be enforced, and for which you sometimes take out a cheap insurance policy.
Whatever the case, it's definitely not true these days that all trains must stop at Stockport, it's just that all or almost all of them do anyway.
In the 2018 timetable, I think, there were a number of local services which didn't, mainly because they couldn't be crammed into the timetable without eliminating some stops from the normal pattern, there was a morning service Alderley Edge to Manchester which didn't call at Stockport, for example.
It'll pop up again here in a few months I bet!

EDIT 2H99 07:29 Alderley Edge to Piccadilly in the 2020 timetable:
View attachment 146229

Thanks for the reply and your comments.

I admit I don't understand some of the technicalities in the above timetable, but, do understand the gist.

I am amused though at the thought of an Inter-City trundling through Hale, possibly at, well for the locals at least, an anti social hour but would not have been surprised if they had subsequently demanded this to be a normal routing...being more convenient for them.

Fascinating, and informative, thread on a line which became prominent in my life at one time.

 

[Andy873]

Not sure if this helps any, but I had a look at my 1962 WTT.

There was a daily train 8am from Colne in East Lancashire to Stockport, now this service was extended on Saturdays and Mondays (until 27th August) to London Euston. The head code for the train (Colne to Stockport) was 1H50, presumably when it was to continue onto London (at Stockport) the train's head code was changed to 1A21.

The route it took was Colne, Accrington, Blackburn. At Blackburn it diverted of the East Lancashire line and headed south for Bolton... I have no idea what its route was after that? and I don't know if the route took in a Manchester station? if so which station would it have been?

Attached are two pages from the WTT, look for the 1H50 and 1A21.

 

[jfollows]

For the Colne service, see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/colne-to-london-euston.200725/

I looked in my 1963 WTT and couldn’t find it; this thread confirms that 1962 was its last year. Manchester Victoria, then Droylsden-Denton which closed in 1968. Today you'd have to go via Ashton Moss junctions, and I have done so on a Manchester Victoria - Buxton service a number of years ago (a special service because of engineering work at the time).

See https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Ashton,_Ashton_Moss,_Crothorn,_Droylsden,_Guide_Bridge,_Hyde,_Oldham_&_Stalybridge_RJD_32.jpg


Every so often there is a discussion here about providing a regular service between Manchester Victoria and Stockport via Denton. There are good reasons why this would be hard to do, and it's not intended to be used for trains from London Euston to Manchester, but I'd personally like to see it.

There were services between Manchester Victoria and London Euston more recently than Andy's 1962 WTT; there was a Rochdale-London DMU (class 158) service which stopped at Manchester Victoria before going to Warrington Bank Quay and joining there with a separate portion from Blackpool. It couldn't run today because the southern WCML is too congested and requires faster trains, but it wasn't well used when it ran anyway. There's some discussion on this forum if you search for it (eg https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rcity-rail-service.239788/page-6#post-5948956).

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not sure if this helps any, but I had a look at my 1962 WTT.

There was a daily train 8am from Colne in East Lancashire to Stockport, now this service was extended on Saturdays and Mondays (until 27th August) to London Euston. The head code for the train (Colne to Stockport) was 1H50, presumably when it was to continue onto London (at Stockport) the train's head code was changed to 1A21.

The route it took was Colne, Accrington, Blackburn. At Blackburn it diverted of the East Lancashire line and headed south for Bolton... I have no idea what its route was after that? and I don't know if the route took in a Manchester station? if so which station would it have been?

Attached are two pages from the WTT, look for the 1H50 and 1A21.

Spotting at Roade in the days when destination boards above the windows were being used I remember a regular Down service where some of the coaches carried EUSTON - COLNE boards. Although I wasn't sure where it was then, the very name Colne seemed to imply somewhere mysterious, remote - and cold.
Don't remember an Up one though.

 

[DarloRich]

I have, quite recently, been on a Pendolino that went Picadilly, Crewe, Stoke, Stafford, Trent Valley and thence south.

I was about to mention that one - we must have been on the same train!

There have been some interesting diversions recently due to engineering work. While they add a considerable time to the journey at least the trains are still running

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I remember a regular Down service where some of the coaches carried EUSTON - COLNE boards. Although I wasn't sure where it was then, the very name Colne seemed to imply somewhere mysterious, remote - and cold.

It still is, to be fair. By the way, were such workings (London Euston to Colne) routed via Manchester Piccadilly (or maybe Manchester London Road, as it once was) or even Manchester Victoria?

 

[jfollows]

It still is, to be fair. By the way, were such workings (London Euston to Colne) routed via Manchester Piccadilly (or maybe Manchester London Road, as it once was) or even Manchester Victoria?

See posts 36 and 37 above.
Manchester Victoria.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

See posts 36 and 37 above.
Manchester Victoria.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Spotting at Roade in the days when destination boards above the windows were being used I remember a regular Down service where some of the coaches carried EUSTON - COLNE boards. Although I wasn't sure where it was then, the very name Colne seemed to imply somewhere mysterious, remote - and cold.
Don't remember an Up one though.

Once travelled on a Euston to Colne train from Man Vic to Bolton. It was dark with no lights in the carriages and the engine was an ex L&Y Crab so no speeding. Also used to use the Blackpool to Harwich train to Manchester ( 47 plus about 4 coaches and utility van which was used by passengers standing only, no heat and low windows so view of lineside only ) and used to wonder what route it used from Vic to get to Sheffield or whatever the routing was arounfd the East side of Manchester.

It still is, to be fair. By the way, were such workings (London Euston to Colne) routed via Manchester Piccadilly (or maybe Manchester London Road, as it once was) or even Manchester Victoria?

Via Vic when I used it about 55 years ago. Not sure how it would have got to Colne via Picc

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Via Vic when I used it about 55 years ago. Not sure how it would have got to Colne via Picc

Good point. Guess that before the opening of the Windsor Link in May 1988, such a journey would have quite possibly necessitated either a convoluted route and/or reversals.

 

[Springs Branch]

Although I wasn't sure where it was then, the very name Colne seemed to imply somewhere mysterious, remote - and cold.

Don't know about mysterious or cold, but whenever I've been there, it's been raining!

Colne happened to be the convenient terminal point for the train, but its main intended market would have been London passengers to/from a number of other substantial towns in industrial Lancashire through which it weaved its winding course - Burnley, Nelson, Accrington, Blackburn, Darwen & Bolton.

One thing to bear in mind about the Colne / Euston trains is that they always comprised just a small handful of 'Through Carriages' which were attached or detached as portions of conventional Manchester / London expresses at Stockport. Not full-length trains in their own right.

Given the Colne portions lasted (just) into the 25kV electrification era between Manchester & Crewe, I wonder whether these carry-overs from an earlier, steamier railway age experienced brand-new electric haulage between Stockport and Crewe during their final days in 1961/62?

--------------
Speaking of unusual routings between Manchester and Euston, I remember that when the Altrincham line had just been converted from DC to 25kV AC in May 1971 a morning express started from Altrincham - electrically-hauled throughout via Piccadilly to Euston, with a return working from Euston back to Altrincham in the evening.

I'm not sure if these were normal scheduled Piccadilly/Euston InterCity trains extended back from/to Altrincham, or specials to celebrate the line's conversion (the Six Bells Junction railtours database has no mention of them). Anyhow, I understand this was just a first day publicity stunt, not a regular thing.

 

[Andy873]

For the Colne service, see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/colne-to-london-euston.200725/

I looked in my 1963 WTT and couldn’t find it; this thread confirms that 1962 was its last year. Manchester Victoria, then Droylsden-Denton which closed in 1968. Today you'd have to go via Ashton Moss junctions, and I have done so on a Manchester Victoria - Buxton service a number of years ago (a special service because of engineering work at the time).

That topic I clearly missed, and I can confirm 1962 was indeed the last year this service ran from Colne to Euston SO. I've looked through my 1963 and '64 WTT's and there's no such service mentioned, so yes - 1962 was its last year.

I've attached the two sheets from the '62 WTT showing the return to Colne, it looks like its route was simply the reverse of the outbound one. Look for the 1L91 SO columns.

such a journey would have quite possibly necessitated either a convoluted route and/or reversals.

Lets say it was certainly a slower journey, it took 1 hour and 14 minutes just to get from Colne to Bolton (arrive 9.14 am), no idea what time based on that you'd arrive at Euston? Looks like a journey of over 6 hours!

The return (depart Euston) journey was at 2.55 pm and returned to Colne 9.16 pm,

Don't know about mysterious or cold, but whenever I've been there, it's been raining!

Same here

Colne happened to be the convenient terminal point for the train, but its main intended market would have been London passengers to/from a number of other substantial towns in industrial Lancashire through which it weaved its winding course - Burnley, Nelson, Accrington, Blackburn, Darwen & Bolton.

Colne was indeed a natural starting / terminating point, here there were large carriage sheds and as a result many local service went from / to Colne.

Yes, the main market for the passengers would have been the local towns en route including Bolton. Because the 1962 WTT is a summer one and the fact this was mainly a SO service, I can't help wondering if this was one of those "holiday period returns"? London was always a big draw for tourists.

Going back to getting to London from the North West of England, I had say a couple of Saturday day trips per year / over the years. We were always encouraged to go from Preston down the WCML as it was quicker. It was a direct service via Crewe, only once did we (yes you've guessed it) have to "change at Crewe!".

I can remember about these trips as being very tiered coming back after plodding the London streets (and getting up earlier than usual to make the journey there). It was a struggle keeping my eyes open going home especially as the light faded and other passengers were snoring! wonder how many people over slept and woke up in Glasgow?

Attached are the two 1962 sheets covering the return section back to Colne. Look for the 1L91 SO entries.

 

[Springs Branch]

Speaking of unusual routings between Manchester and Euston, I remember that when the Altrincham line had just been converted from DC to 25kV AC in May 1971 a morning express started from Altrincham - electrically-hauled throughout via Piccadilly to Euston, with a return working from Euston back to Altrincham in the evening.

I'm not sure if these were normal scheduled Piccadilly/Euston InterCity trains extended back from/to Altrincham, or specials to celebrate the line's conversion . . .

Additional info: An image about halfway through an old Manchester Evening News article titled 'Nostalgia: Step back in time into Altrincham's past' shows the morning train to Euston waiting departure from Altrincham's platform 2 on 5 May 1971.

Nostalgia: Step back in time into Altrincham's past

This market town with a reputation for its vegetables was honoured by royalty after the Second World War

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

The 1L75 headcode suggests it was a special/excursion rather than a regular Euston-bound InterCity, which would presumably have been 1Axx.

Furthermore, this post by Bob Avery on Flickr has comments regarding the May 1971 Altrincham - Euston train.

90 Altrincham

Brand-new 90049 arrives at Altrincham with a Network North West day special from Crewe. 20th October 1990. 85109 is on the rear. The 'enthusiasts' in the leading coach have had their outstretched arms electronically removed, which I thoroughly enjoyed doing!

flic.kr

In summary, the train was a charter, the morning up service was hauled by 'AL6' E3155 (soon to become 86 234) and the commentary by Bob Avery about the stock moves involving Class 47s to avoid running out of signal overlap and juice wire when positioning a full-length loco-hauled train at Altrincham makes an interesting read.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Not strictly on topic (given the thread title), but arguably of interest - from 1960 - 62 there was at least one scheduled Manchester London Rd / Piccadily - Stoke - Derby - St Pancras service on weekdays and Saturdays, with several on Sundays. (and v v)

Diverted off the WCML to facilitate electrification work.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can hardly remember it now, but I once did Euston-Manchester via Northampton, with the added attraction of using the Blisworth-Northampton branch.
This was on a Sunday during the original WCML electrification c1962, when no doubt the junction at Roade was unavailable.
There's hardly any evidence today of the WCML junction at Blisworth (which originally was the start of the LNWR Peterborough branch).
Rather like the situation at Bedford, the line through Northampton crossed under the direct Euston line and then curved round and up to reach Castle station.

 

[43096]

Not strictly on topic (given the thread title), but arguably of interest - from 1960 - 62 there was at least one scheduled Manchester London Rd / Piccadily - Stoke - Derby - St Pancras service on weekdays and Saturdays, with several on Sundays. (and v v)

Diverted off the WCML to facilitate electrification work.

History repeated in 2003/4 for West Coast Route Modernisation as there was the Project Rio service that ran St Pancras - Leicester - Erewash - Dore South curve - Stockport - Piccadilly. It ran via Bredbury (avoiding Stockport) for a time, too, as well as the usual Midland diversions via Corby or Derby depending on route closures. There was also the odd weekend when it ran via Barrow Hill, Sheffield and Dore, too. Stock was, of course, HST sets.

 

[ian1944]

Re. the diagram in post #36, with an Ashton Moss Junction near Guide Bridge I presume that the three at Ashton Moss itself are actually appended West, East and South.

In childhood my nearest station was Brooklands, between Sale and Altrincham. I'd left home in 1971 so have no memory of the direct train from Altrincham to London via the MSJ&A, but would have been there at the time of the earlier diversion mentioned from London, via Northwich and Altrincham. Surely it would have gone via Skelton to Stockport to be able to get into the shed at London Road / Piccadilly without reversal?

 

[jfollows]

Re. the diagram in post #36, with an Ashton Moss Junction near Guide Bridge I presume that the three at Ashton Moss itself are actually appended West, East and South.

The one remaining junction, under the second ‘N’ of the word ‘JUNCTION’, is Ashton Moss North Junction.
The south-east curve went in something like 1991.
The east junction was ‘O.A. & G.B. junction’ I think.
See https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/6093734991/
And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldham,_Ashton_and_Guide_Bridge_Railway

Before it closed, the S-E curve was used by Stockport-Stalybridge services which didn’t need to call at Guide Bridge because of weak bridges on the other line, which were presumably strengthened by 1991 to allow closure of the curve.

EDIT Attached from "Rail Atlas of Britain" by the late S.K.Baker, 2nd. edition 1978 marked up with lines I've travelled over:

In childhood my nearest station was Brooklands, between Sale and Altrincham. I'd left home in 1971 so have no memory of the direct train from Altrincham to London via the MSJ&A, but would have been there at the time of the earlier diversion mentioned from London, via Northwich and Altrincham. Surely it would have gone via Skelton to Stockport to be able to get into the shed at London Road / Piccadilly without reversal?

My one experience of this diversion, post 33 above, went Stockport-Skelton as you say.
The Altrincham-London was a one-off special I think.

 

[Springs Branch]

Because the 1962 WTT is a summer one and the fact this was mainly a SO service, I can't help wondering if this was one of those "holiday period returns"?

--- snip ---
Lets say it was certainly a slower journey, it took 1 hour and 14 minutes just to get from Colne to Bolton (arrive 9.14 am), no idea what time based on that you'd arrive at Euston? Looks like a journey of over 6 hours!

The return (depart Euston) journey was at 2.55 pm and returned to Colne 9.16 pm,

An interesting observation that the last gasp of the through Colne - Manchester - Euston workings in summer 1962 seemed to run both ways in a typical timeslot for Summer SO holiday services.

The preceding Sept 1961 to June 1962 (Winter) LMR timetable shows a much more generous four through Colne/Euston 'portion' workings on Mon-Fri (two in each direction). I've attached summaries below of the main timings, extracted from the public timetables on Timetable World.

Three of these four combined/detached with Piccadilly-Euston expresses at Stockport and ran via Stoke-on-Trent - so would have been diesel-hauled between Stockport and London.

The two London-bound services took just over 6½ hours from Colne to Euston, including 20-odd minutes waits at Stockport for the East Lancs portion to be attached to the Piccadilly - Euston express (I'm guessing a generous amount of padding had to be added to the timetable at Stockport in case the Colne portion was delayed somewhere on its circuitous journey - this mitigated risk of delaying the main Manchester - London train)

Northbound, the morning train was a portion of The Comet Euston - Manchester named express, and got you to Colne in about 6 hrs.

In 1961, the evening down train involved the 18:15 SX Euston to Preston, which dropped one portion for Coventry at Rugby, then the portion for Colne at Crewe. This got you back (via Stockport, Man Vic & Bolton) to the East Lancashire towns after midnight - so none of them could be described as 'Businessmen's Services'.

The portion at Crewe might have had an 'AL' loco up front for the run as far as Stockport in 1961/62. I guess it depended whether or not BR had implemented their (informal?) policy of always using electric haulage when under the wires by that time. Possibly not, given the limited amount of live AC catenary in the very early 1960s.

 

[Andy873]

The one remaining junction, under the second ‘N’ of the word ‘JUNCTION’, is Ashton Moss North Junction.
The south-east curve went in something like 1991.
The east junction was ‘O.A. & G.B. junction’ I think.
See https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/6093734991/
And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldham,_Ashton_and_Guide_Bridge_Railway

Before it closed, the S-E curve was used by Stockport-Stalybridge services which didn’t need to call at Guide Bridge because of weak bridges on the other line, which were presumably strengthened by 1991 to allow closure of the curve.

Thanks for clarifying that, it does make things a little clearer, well at least for me.

An interesting observation that the last gasp of the through Colne - Manchester - Euston workings in summer 1962 seemed to run both ways in a typical timeslot for Summer SO holiday services.

I thought I would just check out the return journey back to Colne to see which way it went, it simply used the same path in both directions.

to the East Lancashire towns after midnight - so none of them could be described as 'Businessmen's Services'.

It looks that way, from what we've discussed here on other threads it certainly feels like this service was indeed aimed at the holiday market.

Northbound, the morning train was a portion of The Comet Euston - Manchester named express, and got you to Colne in about 6 hrs.

For my days out to London starting in the early 1970's this route was no longer available, but to take 6 hours + each way we simply wouldn't have bothered. No we always went via Preston and Crewe - I always remember watching those new large electric engines arriving at our platform pulling all those coaches, and getting up to 110 mph - very exciting as a kid!

@Springs Branch That's great work with the timetables, clear and concise.

Has anyone mentioned the Manchester Pullman yet? the first class only service that started in 1966 and ended 1997 - were any of you lucky enough to travel on it?

Manchester Pullman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[jfollows]

Has anyone mentioned the Manchester Pullman yet? the first class only service that started in 1966 and ended 1997 - were any of you lucky enough to travel on it?

Manchester Pullman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Posts 14 & 15 above.
(The original stock only ran until 1985, after which the name transferred to more regular trains, albeit with new Mark 3 stock.)
I went on it in service but not as a paying passenger because the guard/conductor is a friend of mine, and was then.
My father occasionally used it, and he'd also used the Blue Pullman from Cheadle Heath.
I went on the Manchester Pullman stock on a railtour around East Anglia, to Southend and Bishops Stortford I think, it was fun (2 February 1985, https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ter-in-passenger-service.246783/#post-6167591).
The stock has been converted to air-braked stock (it was vacuum-braked when in service) and still runs on charter trains (West Coast Railway Company I believe, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_British_Pullman_carriages).

For my days out to London starting in the early 1970's this route was no longer available, but to take 6 hours + each way we simply wouldn't have bothered. No we always went via Preston and Crewe - I always remember watching those new large electric engines arriving at our platform pulling all those coaches, and getting up to 110 mph - very exciting as a kid!

It was "only" 100mph until the 1984 timetable, when a few services were timed for 110mph and in due course most of the services except the Birmingham/Wolverhampton services were made faster. Required only Mark1 or Mark 3 stock, the Mark 2 stock was limited to 100mph always.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What other London stations have had direct services to/from Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Victoria in recent (or not so recent) years?

London Euston, obviously. We've also mentioned St. Pancras, Kings Cross, London Waterloo (the long way round!), London Paddington and I suppose you could also include Kensington Olympia. Any others? For example, has there ever been a direct Manchester - London Marylebone service?

 

[jfollows]

The Great Central was built to allow a Manchester London Road to Marylebone service to operate.
The last gasp may have run in the 1960s, before electrification (of the WCML).

For example (from the 9/9/63 to 14/6/64 timetable) 1M51 11:05 pm SX Manchester Central to Marylebone (on Saturdays it left at 10:50pm)

I think this last gasp was the sleeper service, to keep it off the WCML during electrification work.

 

[Merle Haggard]

What other London stations have had direct services to/from Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Victoria in recent (or not so recent) years?

London Euston, obviously. We've also mentioned St. Pancras, Kings Cross, London Waterloo (the long way round!), London Paddington and I suppose you could also include Kensington Olympia. Any others? For example, has there ever been a direct Manchester - London Marylebone service?

I'm pretty sure that, during electrification work in the early-middle 1960s trains sometimes ran Bletchley then towards Oxford and joined the G.C. to Marylebone (and vice versa). Possibly Sunday mornings. Not at all sure that this included Manchesters, though - more likely Anglo-Scottish sleepers

The Great Central was built to allow a Manchester London Road to Marylebone service to operate.
The last gasp may have run in the 1960s, before electrification (of the WCML).

For example (from the 9/9/63 to 14/6/64 timetable) 1M51 11:05 pm Manchester Central to Marylebone.

I suggest that this may also have been a replacement for a West Coast service. Unfortunately I only have a random selection of W.T.T.s and can't find it but, conversely, the Summer 1962 Midland Lines 'A' W.T.T. (Derby - St. Pancras) shows a 1C84 11.40 p.m. SuO Piccadilly - St Pancras train; the Derby - Bedford section shows it non stop to Bedford arr 3.22 a.m. but it isn't shown in the Bedford - St Pancras section at all adding to the mystery. This was of course long before the diversion of Midland line trains into Pic. To add to the mystery, winter 1964-5 Western lines 'A' (Euston - Crewe) shows an 11.40 p.m. Manchester (no terminal mentioned) to Marylebone from Crewe to Bletchley when it disappears (obv turns right)

 

[jfollows]

1M51 Manchester-Marylebone mentioned just above went over Woodhead (timetable extract attached; LMR Midland Lines section F 9/9/63 to 14/6/64) and through Sheffield Victoria, so I think it was the full Great Central experience. Crewe-Lichfield electrification was completed in 1963, to Rugby in 1964, so maybe it made sense to use some of the WCML by then (a year later per your timetable).
The 11.40pm Manchester-Marylebone in your timetable originated from Piccadilly; I've got the Crewe-Alderley Edge timetable from that year which states this.
EDIT The diamond in the time for 1M51 at Guide Bridge denotes that the train changed from steam to electric traction there.

 

[Merle Haggard]

1M51 Manchester-Marylebone mentioned just above went over Woodhead (timetable extract attached; LMR Midland Lines section F 9/9/63 to 14/6/64) and through Sheffield Victoria, so I think it was the full Great Central experience. Crewe-Lichfield electrification was completed in 1963, to Rugby in 1964, so maybe it made sense to use some of the WCML by then (a year later per your timetable).
The 11.40pm Manchester-Marylebone in your timetable originated from Piccadilly; I've got the Crewe-Alderley Edge timetable from that year which states this.
EDIT The diamond in the time for 1M51 at Guide Bridge denotes that the train changed from steam to electric traction there.

Interesting, thanks. But when I click on the pdf all I get is a blank screen called 'untitled' with 'about:blank' as the window. It's happened before with where this icon (page with top folded down and triangle with looped corners )is shown rather than a picture. Is it me?

The L.M. always seemed keen to maximise electric haulage when available to the extent that diesel haulage under the wires was very, very rare. I remember a loco change from steam to electric on a down Crewe train at, I'm fairly sure, Stafford (presumably after the Lichfield energisation). Similarly the diversion of Midland line coal trains to Northampton with electric haulage forward; the diesel never ever worked forward (possibly ensured by traction knowledge forward being limited to electric). I think that they had to justify having 200 A.C. electric locos which initially may have been seen as an over-supply.

 

[jfollows]

Interesting, thanks. But when I click on the pdf all I get is a blank screen called 'untitled' with 'about:blank' as the window. It's happened before with where this icon (page with top folded down and triangle with looped corners )is shown rather than a picture. Is it me?

Sorry, but yes I fear. I’ve just downloaded it and viewed it on a completely different computer.