Holborn and the Aldwych Branch

Dstock7080

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The tunnels finish roughly at Lancaster Place, which is a couple of hundred yards short of Aldwych. Both these tunnels are essentially still operational - the siding berths end at fixed red lamps then the tunnels continue a further couple of hundred yards to end walls.
the tunnels finish level with boundary of No. 138-142/143 Strand.
 
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AlbertBeale

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I don't suppose for a minute that anyone would be allowed to travel on that move :(

Presumably it'll be outside normal traffic hours? Otherwise, if the time is known, presumably it could be seen when reversing in the eastbound platform at Kings Cross? (I guess that's the obvious route.)
 

Vespa

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Well obviously they're not going to fill the tunnels with the 1972 tube stock unit in it!

Once its permanently removed, CGI can superimpose shots of a train arriving and leaving when the station is used for filming, for static shots a mock up can be built on site and the rest in a studio off site, movie technology has advanced in leaps and bounds over the years with very convincing technologies.

Its a shame the branch didn't reach its original potential, had it connected with Waterloo, who knows it may have linked up with Waterloo and City if only for stock movement.

We will never know now, at least we still have the station intact.
 

kwrail

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Twenty years ago they would have had to leave an old unit down there for filming. But as the previous poster said, no need nowadays and they can CGI/mock up a unit from whatever era they are filming for.

As long as they get the continuity better than they did for Skyfall. Great film, but the underground/tube scenes upset the sensibilities of just about everyone who posts on here.
 

Mikey C

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They can use (and indeed do use) the Jubilee Line Charing Cross platforms anyway, indeed it's more suitable for those TV and film companies wanting a "modern" Underground train and station to feature, which the unrefurbished 72 train certainly isn't!
 

simple simon

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Shame that the last 1972ts in original condiition is about to become razor blades. Maybe a heritage railway would want it ... fit batteries and its a runner! Or even add to the Bakerloo line fleet, for spares?
 

simple simon

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Is there a desperate need for a link between Waterloo and Victoria? Almost all connections between trains serving them can be made by changing at Clapham Junction, or using Waterloo East anyway. Running short underground trains across central London sounds like a really bad idea, and I don't think there is much space for a new tunnel under Euston / St Pancras. If you were building a new Waterloo - King's Cross line, I suspect it would be a lot cheaper and simpler to not try to reuse the Aldwych branch, given that you'd need to completely rebuild both stations on it anyway.

Not all trains call at Clapham Jcn and anyway only a small number of passengers from 'south of the river' have the insider knowledge that it is sometimes possible to change at Clapham Jcn. Whilst there is a bus link between Waterloo and Victoria stations it takes a much longer time than a rail link would provide.

I agree that if planning a direct connection from Kings Cross to Waterloo it would be routed differently, but Clerkenwell is one of the parts of London which were missed out by the railways (as I found out when I visited the Mail Rail museum railway - long walk from KxStp) so serving Clerkenwell would be the primary reason for the routing. But it would be crazy to terminate trains at Clerkenwell. Far better to do this at the new development to the north of Kings Cross, instead of reopening York Way station on the heavily overloaded Piccadilly line. Perhaps even there would be space for a depot - with 'other use' buildings above it.

Serving Clerkenwell could be partially funded by the increase in property values resulting from the new service.

Routing the trains via Farringdon and the new development north of Kings Cross would benefit passengers from other areas of London using Thameslink and Crossrail line 1 (Elizabeth line) but the question has to be whether it is better to serve these passengers or the people already at Kx / STP / Euston - and the new HS2 stations? Would serving both Farringdon and the stations at Kx / STP be seen as wasteful duplication? I vaguely recall reading about concerns that the new HS2 line might overload the existing railway facilities in the Kx / STP / Euston area - if so then serving both locations would be OK.

One of the challenges that London faces is the slowing down of road traffic speeds (including buses) via 20 mph zones and road space reallocation. Plus there is much desire to reduce overall traffic levels. As a result buses are ceasing to be competitive for anything but very short distances or where there is zero other travel option. A new rapid transit automated distributor would help with modal shift from road to rail and create better certainty with respect of journey durations. At present the Holborn Aldwych route is being wasted; ideally its station platforms could be expanded / lengthened but even if this new service used short high-frequency trains it could help reduce overcrowding on the existing system in the central area.

Also currently partially underused is the Kingsway Subway. It would need near complete rebuilding to be suitable for modern 2.65m wide trams and anyway, part of it is now an important road link that reduces traffic congestion at street level. In addition, the former tramway reservation on the Embankment has been nicked by (lost to) the cyclists - so perhaps the Kingsway Subway will have to stay as it is. Unfortunately it is a little to far from Covent Garden to be included in any of the leisure-themed shopping etc activities.
 
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AlbertBeale

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Not all trains call at Clapham Jcn and anyway only a small number of passengers from 'south of the river' have the insider knowledge that it is sometimes possible to change at Clapham Jcn. Whilst there is a bus link between Waterloo and Victoria stations it takes a much longer time than a rail link would provide.

I agree that if planning a direct connection from Kings Cross to Waterloo it would be routed differently, but Clerkenwell is one of the parts of London which were missed out by the railways (as I found out when I visited the Mail Rail museum railway - long walk from KxStp) so serving Clerkenwell would be the primary reason for the routing. But it would be crazy to terminate trains at Clerkenwell. Far better to do this at the new development to the north of Kings Cross, instead of reopening York Way station on the heavily overloaded Piccadilly line. Perhaps even there would be space for a depot - with 'other use' buildings above it.

Serving Clerkenwell could be partially funded by the increase in property values resulting from the new service.

Routing the trains via Farringdon and the new development north of Kings Cross would benefit passengers from other areas of London using Thameslink and Crossrail line 1 (Elizabeth line) but the question has to be whether it is better to serve these passengers or the people already at Kx / STP / Euston - and the new HS2 stations? Would serving both Farringdon and the stations at Kx / STP be seen as wasteful duplication? I vaguely recall reading about concerns that the new HS2 line might overload the existing railway facilities in the Kx / STP / Euston area - if so then serving both locations would be OK.

One of the challenges that London faces is the slowing down of road traffic speeds (including buses) via 20 mph zones and road space reallocation. Plus there is much desire to reduce overall traffic levels. As a result buses are ceasing to be competitive for anything but very short distances or where there is zero other travel option. A new rapid transit automated distributor would help with modal shift from road to rail and create better certainty with respect of journey durations. At present the Holborn Aldwych route is being wasted; ideally its station platforms could be expanded / lengthened but even if this new service used short high-frequency trains it could help reduce overcrowding on the existing system in the central area.

Also currently partially underused is the Kingsway Subway. It would need near complete rebuilding to be suitable for modern 2.65m wide trams and anyway, part of it is now an important road link that reduces traffic congestion at street level. In addition, the former tramway reservation on the Embankment has been nicked by (lost to) the cyclists - so perhaps the Kingsway Subway will have to stay as it is. Unfortunately it is a little to far from Covent Garden to be included in any of the leisure-themed shopping etc activities.

As someone living and working in the middle of London for decades, who moves round the centre by a mix of walking, cycling and buses, I'd say the delays to buses are not primarily on account of "20 mph zones and road space reallocation". Rather, it's primarily the continued existence of private cars and increasing numbers of mini-cabs in the centre - almost all of both need kicking out, then the buses would move faster. There are other notable factors in the decreasing usefulness of bus travel too - the significant cuts in bus services in recent years, meaning longer waiting times, and the closure of the back platforms on the "new Routemaster" buses (when they were open for hop-on/hop-off journeys, I could often move around the centre 30% faster).

Back on topic - is it suggested that the two fantasy suggestions of re-purposing Holborn-Aldwych as part of a shuttle from north-of-KX, via StP and Farringdon and Clerkenwell [and why not Mount Pleasant for good measure?], to Temple and Waterloo, and of a direct Waterloo-Victoria link, could all be one big happy crayonista loop? Maybe with the Drain linked in as a branch of it too?
 

Wolfie

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London Underground now have the Jubilee Line platforms at Charing Cross available for filming purposes, more modern and easier to access
Depends what period the film is set in. Anything pre-70s.....
 

bramling

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Shame that the last 1972ts in original condiition is about to become razor blades. Maybe a heritage railway would want it ... fit batteries and its a runner! Or even add to the Bakerloo line fleet, for spares?

It should really be preserved, but no one cares about the “silver” era, which has essentially slipped away into history. For anyone who grew up in the 70s, 80s or 90s this is how they will remember the system, and certainly not by the 38 stock which had largely gone by then.

Even if there wasn’t the issue of Covid, the museum depot at Acton is short of space. But it does seem rather wasteful to bin off 3229, as having spent the best part of 25 years below ground it should be in pretty good condition structurally.
 

43066

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It should really be preserved, but no one cares about the “silver” era, which has essentially slipped away into history. For anyone who grew up in the 70s, 80s or 90s this is how they will remember the system, and certainly not by the 38 stock which had largely gone by then.

Spot on. That’s bang on my era, with the late eighties into the early nineties generating my first memories of the tube. Oh to be able to go back and wander around the system circa 1991!

Even if there wasn’t the issue of Covid, the museum depot at Acton is short of space. But it does seem rather wasteful to bin off 3229, as having spent the best part of 25 years below ground it should be in pretty good condition structurally.

I had heard a vicious rumour that the LT Acton depot was slated for closure. Having done a quick google search that seems not to be the case, which is great news. I did one of their excellent depot tours a few years back and hope to return.
 

birchesgreen

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There is a preserved 72ts DM already at Acton depot of course. They don't have the room for any more which is a real shame but unfortunately thats the way it is!27733161413_2e786347b6_b.jpg18300050032_2ee50d3af1_b.jpg
 

BayPaul

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Not all trains call at Clapham Jcn and anyway only a small number of passengers from 'south of the river' have the insider knowledge that it is sometimes possible to change at Clapham Jcn. Whilst there is a bus link between Waterloo and Victoria stations it takes a much longer time than a rail link would provide.

I agree that if planning a direct connection from Kings Cross to Waterloo it would be routed differently, but Clerkenwell is one of the parts of London which were missed out by the railways (as I found out when I visited the Mail Rail museum railway - long walk from KxStp) so serving Clerkenwell would be the primary reason for the routing. But it would be crazy to terminate trains at Clerkenwell. Far better to do this at the new development to the north of Kings Cross, instead of reopening York Way station on the heavily overloaded Piccadilly line. Perhaps even there would be space for a depot - with 'other use' buildings above it.

Serving Clerkenwell could be partially funded by the increase in property values resulting from the new service.

Routing the trains via Farringdon and the new development north of Kings Cross would benefit passengers from other areas of London using Thameslink and Crossrail line 1 (Elizabeth line) but the question has to be whether it is better to serve these passengers or the people already at Kx / STP / Euston - and the new HS2 stations? Would serving both Farringdon and the stations at Kx / STP be seen as wasteful duplication? I vaguely recall reading about concerns that the new HS2 line might overload the existing railway facilities in the Kx / STP / Euston area - if so then serving both locations would be OK.

One of the challenges that London faces is the slowing down of road traffic speeds (including buses) via 20 mph zones and road space reallocation. Plus there is much desire to reduce overall traffic levels. As a result buses are ceasing to be competitive for anything but very short distances or where there is zero other travel option. A new rapid transit automated distributor would help with modal shift from road to rail and create better certainty with respect of journey durations. At present the Holborn Aldwych route is being wasted; ideally its station platforms could be expanded / lengthened but even if this new service used short high-frequency trains it could help reduce overcrowding on the existing system in the central area.

Also currently partially underused is the Kingsway Subway. It would need near complete rebuilding to be suitable for modern 2.65m wide trams and anyway, part of it is now an important road link that reduces traffic congestion at street level. In addition, the former tramway reservation on the Embankment has been nicked by (lost to) the cyclists - so perhaps the Kingsway Subway will have to stay as it is. Unfortunately it is a little to far from Covent Garden to be included in any of the leisure-themed shopping etc activities.
I agree that many of these traffic flows are poorly served, but I don't think that the Aldwych Branch is really useful in any way to serve them.

For Clerkenwell, the easiest and cheapest way to serve it would surely be to add a new station on the Circle line, somewhere around Mount Pleasant post office - I'm afraid I don't know the area well, but this looks about the furthest away from the existing stations

If you did want a new tube line from Waterloo to Clerkenwell, the direct route (to Mount Pleasant PO again), the direct route is 2.5km. It goes past Chancery Lane, so an interchange with the central line is quite practical. Going via Aldwych and Holburn increases the distance to 2.77km, of which .68km is the existing tunnels from Aldwych to Holburn, so the saving of tunnelling distance is only 400m on , however this would be offset by the need to build two separate tunnels from each end, rather than going straight through, plus I strongly suspect the cost of modifications to Aldwych and Holburn stations would be more than the cost of building from scratch. As you have mentionned, platform lengths are an issue - I really don't see that building a brand new line that can only cope with short trains is a real option, plus Holburn itself would need complete remodelling, both track-wise, as the existing dead-end platform, and one with connections to the Piccadilly mainline would need massive modifications to make them instead connect with tunnels to the north, and passenger wise, as the existing station barely copes with the traffic from 2 lines, it certainly couldn't cope with a 3rd. Aldwych would also need a rebuild to make it into a through station, and to add escalators and new elevators to the surface. Finally, I would doubt we'll see another narrow-diameter tube line across London - the current trend for mainline-sized tunnels is probably much more likely to continue, as the capacity is so much greater and the cost not much greater with modern tunnelling methods.

Most of your other (very reasonable) desires are provided for by Crossrail 2, which provides the additional capacity into Euston, and also frees up space at Clapham junction for more semi-fast stoppers, so I don't think that the Adwych branch is the right solution to any of these problems.
 

Wolfie

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I agree that many of these traffic flows are poorly served, but I don't think that the Aldwych Branch is really useful in any way to serve them.

For Clerkenwell, the easiest and cheapest way to serve it would surely be to add a new station on the Circle line, somewhere around Mount Pleasant post office - I'm afraid I don't know the area well, but this looks about the furthest away from the existing stations

If you did want a new tube line from Waterloo to Clerkenwell, the direct route (to Mount Pleasant PO again), the direct route is 2.5km. It goes past Chancery Lane, so an interchange with the central line is quite practical. Going via Aldwych and Holburn increases the distance to 2.77km, of which .68km is the existing tunnels from Aldwych to Holburn, so the saving of tunnelling distance is only 400m on , however this would be offset by the need to build two separate tunnels from each end, rather than going straight through, plus I strongly suspect the cost of modifications to Aldwych and Holburn stations would be more than the cost of building from scratch. As you have mentionned, platform lengths are an issue - I really don't see that building a brand new line that can only cope with short trains is a real option, plus Holburn itself would need complete remodelling, both track-wise, as the existing dead-end platform, and one with connections to the Piccadilly mainline would need massive modifications to make them instead connect with tunnels to the north, and passenger wise, as the existing station barely copes with the traffic from 2 lines, it certainly couldn't cope with a 3rd. Aldwych would also need a rebuild to make it into a through station, and to add escalators and new elevators to the surface. Finally, I would doubt we'll see another narrow-diameter tube line across London - the current trend for mainline-sized tunnels is probably much more likely to continue, as the capacity is so much greater and the cost not much greater with modern tunnelling methods.

Most of your other (very reasonable) desires are provided for by Crossrail 2, which provides the additional capacity into Euston, and also frees up space at Clapham junction for more semi-fast stoppers, so I don't think that the Adwych branch is the right solution to any of these problems.
Mount Pleasant is between 5-10 mins walk from Farringdon. It's not vast distances from Angel or King's Cross either.
 

BayPaul

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Mount Pleasant is between 5-10 mins walk from Farringdon. It's not vast distances from Angel or King's Cross either.
I know. I was trying to find a suitable easy to describe location in Clerkenwell, as @simple simon said that there was a lack of stations. It is ringed by Farringdon, King's Cross, Angel, Old Street and Barbican, so I kind of get his point - most areas of central London would have another station in the middle, but as you say, the walking distances are not huge.
 

Mikey C

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Depends what period the film is set in. Anything pre-70s.....
Presumably they can still use Aldwych, there just won't be a train in it. And a 72 stock train is hardly suitable for say a 1950s drama anyway!
 

Wolfie

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Presumably they can still use Aldwych, there just won't be a train in it. And a 72 stock train is hardly suitable for say a 1950s drama anyway!
Sorry, perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear. I was replying to a post which implied that Aldwych was no longer required as TfL had Charing Cross. The latter is very definitely 1970s+...
 

Grumbler

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It seems it has no future as a tube line, it could perhaps be used for a moving walkway if there is a demand, as storage vaults, or for cables, water pipes etc.
 

Wolfie

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It seems it has no future as a tube line, it could perhaps be used for a moving walkway if there is a demand, as storage vaults, or for cables, water pipes etc.
It had no future as a tube line from the day that it closed.
 

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