Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Whistler40145]

Is the passing loop available in both directions?

I very much doubt it, surely a loop is provided in the opposite direction

 

[Nottingham59]

surely a loop is provided in the opposite direction

There's a loop on the westbound side at Earles, i think

 

[Killingworth]

There's a loop on the westbound side at Earles, i think

There is and it may be used to allow empty wagons en route to the Buxton quarries to be held until there's a path at Chinlwy. Of course empty cement wagons will be going into the sidings there anyway.

There is another point there. Any freight approaching Earles from the west has to draw past before reversing in. Currently that is only done regularly by coal trains from South Wales. Any hitch with that reversal operation can delay services, particularly blocking westbound passenger trains.

Solution? A new crossover west of Earles?

 

[Nottingham59]

Any freight approaching Earles from the west has to draw past before reversing in.

I woud have thought that will be much less of a problem when the Bamford Loop is in place

 

[zwk500]

I woud have thought that will be much less of a problem when the Bamford Loop is in place

I don't see why the Bamford loop would make a difference to a train setting back at Earles.

 

[Nottingham59]

I don't see why the Bamford loop would make a difference to a train setting back at Earles.

I was thinking of freight from the west that had to be looped somewhere. I see now that @Killingworth was talking about freight where the destination was Earles.

 

[Killingworth]

You have to consider Bamford Loop in a wider context, specifically the minimal regulating opportunities elsewhere.

Any loaded stone train from the quarries can cause problems in the Chinley area if it is held on the single track chord from Chinley South to Chinley East or further back south of Chinley South.

Any southbound train beyond Bamford can only be held on the (to be extended) single track curve from Dore West to Dore South if it can't get a clear run straight out towards Dronfield across both Midland Main Line tracks. Obviously if it is held on the curve it will baulk any westbound freight needing to clear the MML in the opposite direction. If it is held back at Dore West it then stops following passenger or freight services towards Dore Station.

So, the trick is going to be holding the loaded train in Bamford Loop until the point that it can hopefully be given a clear path straight through towards Dronfield. The fact that Bamford loop is on a little hummock between 1:120 uphill into 1:200 downhill into a little dip before Hathersage and has fairly high speed pointwork should enable trains to 'get away' moderately well. Far better than an awful, flange graunching start from rest on the tight Dore South Curve into 1:100 up through Bradway Tunnel with the exhaust reverberating off the brickwork.

No doubt it will take a little while before signallers, timetablers and drivers perfect the knack but Bamford Loop is a sound idea.

Living almost above that tight Dore curve I can confirm that pulling away from a standong start across the MML to go south through Bradway tunnel produces much exhaust effort ant a little screeching of metal on metal.

As I understand it full length stone trains will go into the Bamford loop but will be too long to be held on the Dore loop. I'd mention that it's also uphill for anything coming round from the MML to the Hope Valley. Such trains are normally empties so not a problem. However I have a video of a steam special struggling to pull away with much wheel slip and lots of smoke and steam!

The doubling through Dore and Totley station will allow more scope for holding any train to give access to either the Hope Valley or MML

The point has been made about signal regulation. That will be critical and is a major component in this scheme. Currently York can't 'see' the freights piling up in the Hope Valley. When this is all complete they'll be able to 'see' and regulate from about Unstone to the south almost into Sheffield and to Bamford in the Hope Valley all on one panel.

Resignalling through Earles and westwards may happen one day, maybe by 2035?

The current scheme has grown out of the original plans to redouble at Dore first drawn up in the late 1990s and being promised by the Strategic Rail Authority for 2003-4. The latest IRP now says it won't create parhs for the supposed 3 fast passenger services an hour it was supposed to allow without doubling the Hazel Grove junction and tripling the line from Dore into Sheffield.

Tripling into Sheffield was part of HS2 plans. Many have suggested restoration of all 4. No doubt just thinking about that will delay full MML electrification beyond the current plan for 2030.

It's a useful point to regulate if needed, say problems at Dore and you've got a freight en-route, plus if its going to be a passenger loop (no reason why it shouldn't be these days), would enable an express to pass a local service.

The original specification for the scheme was to improve capacity to permit an extra 3rd hourly fast path and improve reliability of all the slow passenger and freight paths. Both loops were designed for freight but it's up to operators how they're used.

Yes, any hold up on the MML into Sheffield means trains waiting to go norrh can back up into the Hope Valley with the single line through Dore station blocking westbound traffic too. Redoubling there will be a big help. .

We now know the 3rd fast passenger path is impossible without more work at Hazel Grove and possibly tripling into Sheffield..However a second semi-fast via Marple could be possible skipping stops and maybe sheltering in the Bamford loop to allow a heavy freight to overtake. 195s have better acceleration than the Pacers in use when all this was planned.

 

[unlevel42]

Living almost above that tight Dore curve I can confirm that pulling away from a standong start across the MML to go south through Bradway tunnel produces much exhaust effort ant a little screeching of metal on metal.

As I understand it full length stone trains will go into the Bamford loop but will be too long to be held on the Dore loop. I'd mention that it's also uphill for anything coming round from the MML to the Hope Valley. Such trains are normally empties so not a problem. However I have a video of a steam special struggling to pull away with much wheel slip and lots of smoke and steam!

The doubling through Dore and Totley station will allow more scope for holding any train to give access to either the Hope Valley or MML

The point has been made about signal regulation. That will be critical and is a major component in this scheme. Currently York can't 'see' the freights piling up in the Hope Valley. When this is all complete they'll be able to 'see' and regulate from about Unstone to the south almost into Sheffield and to Bamford in the Hope Valley all on one panel.

Resignalling through Earles and westwards may happen one day, maybe by 2035?

The current scheme has grown out of the original plans to redouble at Dore first drawn up in the late 1990s and being promised by the Strategic Rail Authority for 2003-4. The latest IRP now says it won't create parhs for the supposed 3 fast passenger services an hour it was supposed to allow without doubling the Hazel Grove junction and tripling the line from Dore into Sheffield.

Tripling into Sheffield was part of HS2 plans. Many have suggested restoration of all 4. No doubt just thinking about that will delay full MML electrification beyond the current plan for 2030.



The original specification for the scheme was to improve capacity to permit an extra 3rd hourly fast path and improve reliability of all the slow passenger and freight paths. Both loops were designed for freight but it's up to operators how they're used.

Yes, any hold up on the MML into Sheffield means trains waiting to go norrh can back up into the Hope Valley with the single line through Dore station blocking westbound traffic too. Redoubling there will be a big help. .

We now know the 3rd fast passenger path is impossible without more work at Hazel Grove and possibly tripling into Sheffield..However a second semi-fast via Marple could be possible skipping stops and maybe sheltering in the Bamford loop to allow a heavy freight to overtake. 195s have better acceleration than the Pacers in use when all this was planned.

Your last paragraph makes a lot of sense. The 195s have made the Marple route immeasurably more comfortable and arrival/departure at the exit doors at Piccadilly(and free bus) saves 5 minutes of real hassle to from and at platform 13/14. It is now my route of choice unless I am going on the tram. Proof of this is the huge increase in use of this route despite Covid(and which is only partly due to the TPE cancellation).
Can the Bamford loop be used to allow the stoppers to be held while the late fasts go through instead of the much longer delays if held at New Mills South?

 

[Killingworth]

Your last paragraph makes a lot of sense. The 195s have made the Marple route immeasurably more comfortable and arrival/departure at the exit doors at Piccadilly(and free bus) saves 5 minutes of real hassle to from and at platform 13/14. It is now my route of choice unless I am going on the tram. Proof of this is the huge increase in use of this route despite Covid(and which is only partly due to the TPE cancellation).
Can the Bamford loop be used to allow the stoppers to be held while the late fasts go through instead of the much longer delays if held at New Mills South?

That is another new option that could be useful requiring coordination between York and Manchester control.

Overall there will be flexibility, if used, to better regulate all services through the Valley. That applies.whether for regular timetabled services or to recover as much as possible when things haven't gone right far away.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Apparently Modern Railways is saying that electrification of the MML north of Wigston has been put on hold to provide funding for HS2.

 

[snowball]

Apparently Modern Railways is saying that electrification of the MML north of Wigston has been put on hold to provide funding for HS2.

Already discussed on page 203 of the MML thread.

 

[Killingworth]

Apparently Modern Railways is saying that electrification of the MML north of Wigston has been put on hold to provide funding for HS2.

Strictly off topic but relevant because the Hope Valley Scheme was supposed to provide 3 fast paths between Sheffield and Manchester. That is now known to be problematic without doubling the chord at Hazel Grove and tripling tracks into Sheffield from Dore, evidenced in the 2021 Integrated Rail Plan Para 3.94;

Network Rail’s capacity analysis suggests that three NPR trains per hour between Manchester and Sheffield can be operated via the Hope Valley Line with trains continuing to Stockport through targeted investment, using the existing Network Rail station at Manchester Piccadilly. This would likely require the doubling of the Hazel Grove chord (to enable three trains to be evenly spaced, around every 20 minutes) and restoration of a third line between Dore and Sheffield, although more detailed analysis is needed to confirm this. The infrastructure required on the Hope Valley route itself is potentially similar if four fast NPR trains are planned. However, operating a fourth train via Stockport into the existing Piccadilly station would require either a major package of interventions on the existing railway or a reduction in other services in the Manchester area.

The latest electrification plans for the MML to Sheffield seem to include tripling from Dore into Sheffield so if the rumour being spread by Modern Railways is true the further delay in electrification will probably have adverse effects for the TransPennine route as well, although this part could be tackled separately.

 

[snowball]

Press release

Upgrade work continues on Hope Valley railway line over Easter

Work on the Hope Valley Railway Upgrade is continuing in April, with passengers reminded to check before they travel between Manchester and Sheffield.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Work on the Hope Valley Railway Upgrade is continuing in April, with passengers reminded to check before they travel between Manchester and Sheffield.

New track will be installed at West View Lane and through Dore & Totley station as part of ongoing work to build a second railway line, platform, and accessible footbridge at the station.

No trains will run between Sheffield and Hope stations on Saturday 8, Sunday 9, and Sunday 16 April, to allow essential upgrade work along the line.

Passengers are being urged to check their journeys and plan ahead at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/

Dore & Totley station car park will also be closed from Tuesday 4 April (6am close) until Friday 21 April (12pm open) to facilitate construction work and the delivery of rail materials.

 

[Killingworth]

For those living nearby - a similar event took place last night at Dore.

Ongoing Railway Work - Community Information Event - tomorrow night, 5th April, 6-7pm

To find out more about the Hope Valley Railway Upgrade, and to ask the project team any questions you may have, you are invited to attend a drop in community information event on Wednesday 5th April, from 6-7pm to take place in the Stanage Hall at Hathersage Memorial Hall, S32 1DU. You can stop by at any point during the stated time frame.

 

[td97]

The programme originally had 22/04-30/04 as a 9-day blockade, but this seems to be postponed as no recent communication has appeared about this.

 

[Killingworth]

The programme originally had 22/04-30/04 as a 9-day blockade, but this seems to be postponed as no recent communication has appeared about this.

You can forget much of what that said. The original you may have seen was probably distributed about October 2020? It envisaged work completed by mid-2023. A lot has changed as work has been rescheduled for a variety of reasons. Completion and commissioning is now due in March 2024.

You can get some idea of the likely blockades from the closures of Dore & Totley station car park - the 9 day blockade now likely in Feb-March 2024 to cover final commissioning.

Upcoming Dore & Totley station car park closures​

Throughout 2023 – 2024, the Hope Valley project will be required to, at times, partially and fully close Dore & Totley station car park in order to facilitate vital construction work on the railway line. The planned dates for these closures can be found below.

Please note: that this is subject to change as the project programme progresses.

• 21 April – 31 October 2023: some spaces closed
• 31 October – 17 December 2023: car park open
• 18 December 2023 – 5 January 2024: car park closed
• 5 January – 26 February 2024: car park open
• 27 February – 5 April 2024: car park closed

Updated 10.4.2023.

Work over the Easter weekend centered on the new Dore chord/loop - the turn out for the new Dore West Junction is now in place.

New sight boards have appeared at Dore & Totley station and new rails are ready to be positioned for the second track through the station - maybe next weekend.

 

[Nottingham59]

New sight boards

What are these for, please?

 

[GardenRail]

What are these for, please?

To stop drivers looking at the wrong signal, particularly at night time.

 

[Bryson]

Won't the sight boards have to be removed when the new platform goes in? They look to be located where it will be built.

 

[furnessvale]

Won't the sight boards have to be removed when the new platform goes in? They look to be located where it will be built.

Presumably any new platform will have some sort of backboard which will provide the same screen.

 

[Meerkat]

Presumably any new platform will have some sort of backboard which will provide the same screen.

Are the signals staying in the same places?

 

[Killingworth]

Won't the sight boards have to be removed when the new platform goes in? They look to be located where it will be built.

I'd confidently predict the one on the left will have to go The other may too as the new footbridge and shelters are likely to obstruct much of the view.

Are the signals staying in the same places?

Yes. Curiously they will have survived the 1985 shortening and the 2023 restoration!

 

[td97]

Are the signals staying in the same places?

Yes. Curiously they will have survived the 1985 shortening and the 2023 restoration!

No. S56 becomes DE5124 and is moved 15m towards Sheffield.
S55 becomes DE5115 and is moved 20m towards Sheffield.

 

[Freightmaster]

No. S56 becomes DE5124 and is moved 15m towards Sheffield.
S55 becomes DE5115 and is moved 20m towards Sheffield.

Interesting!

Do you happen to know how many other existing signals in the area will be renumbered
from Sxx to DExxxx when the project is complete - presumably just those in the Dore station/
Dore West Junction area with all signals on the MML itself remaining unchanged?



MARK

 

[td97]

Do you happen to know how many other existing signals in the area will be renumbered
from Sxx to DExxxx when the project is complete - presumably just those in the Dore station/
Dore West Junction area with all signals on the MML itself remaining unchanged?

The Sxx series remain on the MML and Dore South Jn.
Obviously the TExx, GDxx and ESxx (east of ES3) are also resignalled to the DExxxx series.
There aren't many other direct comparisons as the resignalling alters signal spacing throughout.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Presumably TE = Totley Tunnel East, GD = Grindleford and ES = Earles Sidings.

 

[Killingworth]

No. S56 becomes DE5124 and is moved 15m towards Sheffield.
S55 becomes DE5115 and is moved 20m towards Sheffield.

That'll teach me not to answer quickly on the phone without checking records Very close though, but that's what helps makes it so expensive.

Shame the opportunity isn't being taken to make it bi-directional through the station as that would allow greater flexibility for both passenger and freight services. It seems to have been an option until quite late in the planning process.

 

[Watershed]

I'm guessing DE = Dore to Earles ?

 

[Elecman]

I'm guessing DE = Dore to Earles ?

Thats would be a reasonable assumption

 

[edwin_m]

Thats would be a reasonable assumption

Or could be Dore to Edale. Where's the Route boundary?