Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Killingworth]

...and appropriate train length!




MARK

.. and the fastest when many leisure users are happy to take a little longer than commuters and business travellers.

 

[Chester1]

...and appropriate train length!




MARK

This has happened around Manchester since the pandemic but not quite enough yet. Most services through Castlefield are now either 6 x 23m or 5 x 26m. The upgrade seems to have noticable increased reliability to Hope Valley services but some people seem to have been expecting miracles. Routes involving entry into Lime Street, Castlefield, significant use of the MML and the case of some EMR services Ely, are never going to have very high reliability.

 

[Killingworth]

This has happened around Manchester since the pandemic but not quite enough yet. Most services through Castlefield are now either 6 x 23m or 5 x 26m. The upgrade seems to have noticable increased reliability to Hope Valley services but some people seem to have been expecting miracles. Routes involving entry into Lime Street, Castlefield, significant use of the MML and the case of some EMR services Ely, are never going to have very high reliability.

I'd contend that the jury should stil be out on increased reliability. Using On Time Trains data my station Dore, is showing a very small improvement. Judged over the last 6 months it came in at 2407th best out of 2634 stations for punctuality of trains. Over the last 4 weeks that had improved to 2321st, see; https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/stations/DOR

Most of those trains are operated by Northern and are currently diverted via Stockport giving extra recovery time in both directions. That should be ensuring more eastbound on time arrivals in turn leading to fewer delayed westbound return services into Manchester.

However congestion around the single track Hazel Grove chord area may currently be adversely impacting the fast services and freight? Points failures ariud there and at Dore haven't helped in the latest 4 weeks.

We tend to concentrate on passenger trains but before the scheme was completed those with an interest in freight expressed a view that neither loop would materially help and possibly hinder their reliabilty. Freight trains do run through the Dore South chord but I've yet to see or hear of one standing on it. The Bamford loop is largely out of sight and I've not heard of any freight use although a Northern stopping srrvice has been overtaken by a fast. Do those with knowledge of freight services or signalling know how well the loops are working?

 

[GardenRail]

Do those with knowledge of freight services or signalling know how well the loops are working?

From a signalling point of view, excellent. Trains do regularly stand on the chord at Dore, usually going South waiting a path onto the MML. Its a lot easier too, now that everything fits.
Bamford, does indeed get used, but as to how much, depends on how daring Chinley is at turning late freight out, whether in front off an express, or behind. In my personal experience, I've used it more fore the late Hope Valley Stoppers, if they're 7-8 mins late at Edale in front of the Cleethorpes, I have found it worthwhile putting the stopper in the loop. If not the Cleethorpes follows it signal to signal all the way to Sheffield.

 

[Killingworth]

In my personal experience, I've used it more fore the late Hope Valley Stoppers, if they're 7-8 mins late at Edale in front of the Cleethorpes, I have found it worthwhile putting the stopper in the loop. If not the Cleethorpes follows it signal to signal all the way to Sheffield.

That may partially help explain why Northern punctuality at Dore hasn't noticeably improved. TPE late departures from Sheffield continue to blight the westbound stoppers, something the scheme can't improve.

 

[LowLevel]

That may partially help explain why Northern punctuality at Dore hasn't noticeably improved. TPE late departures from Sheffield continue to blight the westbound stoppers, something the scheme can't improve.

What isn't immediately obvious is that that particularly combination - late running TPE going west knocking Northern - then hits the whole hour's services following. There's a standard freight path behind the Northern train - if that ends up late it loses more time section to section and it is only 9 minutes ahead of the EMR service as booked by the time you get to Edale. Hit the EMR train and it loses it's path at Hazel Grove and ends up 20 late into Lime St.

 

[3RDGEN]

In the May Modern Railways summer timetable review it mentioned the handful of Reading - Newcastle (York) services will be retimed from Derby removing the current waits and that this is due to the work at Dore. For example 1E79 currently sits at Derby for 10 minutes but that is removed in the new summer timetable and hence is 20 mins earlier into Sheff and 30 minutes earlier at Newcastle.

1E79 winter timetable - "https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G24661/2024-05-24/detailed".

1E79 summer timetable - "https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C48325/2024-06-07/detailed".

Similar applies to the other few Reading services, does anyone know if this is actually a result of the Dore changes? Birmingham - Sheffield stopping Derby only in 61 mins is good going.

 

[Killingworth]

Punctuality statistics are totally ruined this morning by a tree obstructing lines somewhere near Chinley - Hazel Grove. As far as users are concerned it's all the same useless railway! They aren't much bothered about details. Some will have been stranded in limbo when trying to catch a plane from Manchester Airport. Available Uber drivers will have done well.

 

[bigbigcheese]

Nice piece in Rail Engineer detailing the whole build and bring this to something of a conclusion

 

[Mugby]

Did I imagine it or was there some talk a while ago of the Up Millhouses Loop being lengthened? It could actually be extended almost as far as Sainsburys.

Was it ever seriously considered or was it just wishful thinking? Would it offer any benefit?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Did I imagine it or was there some talk a while ago of the Up Millhouses Loop being lengthened? It could actually be extended almost as far as Sainsburys.

Was it ever seriously considered or was it just wishful thinking? Would it offer any benefit?

The loop commonly described as the Up Heeley Loop had it’s usable length increased by repositioning the exit signal (no track alterations).

 

[td97]

(no track alterations)

Actually there was an area of sleeper replacement

 

[Trainman40083]

This has happened around Manchester since the pandemic but not quite enough yet. Most services through Castlefield are now either 6 x 23m or 5 x 26m. The upgrade seems to have noticable increased reliability to Hope Valley services but some people seem to have been expecting miracles. Routes involving entry into Lime Street, Castlefield, significant use of the MML and the case of some EMR services Ely, are never going to have very high reliability.

Exactly.... indeed in the case of Liverpool to Norwich services, 90mph units might not be welcomed on the ECML as the demand for paths hots up. At Manchester Oxford Road, even 5 car trains can limit services if trains cannot use adjacent platforms

 

[GardenRail]

The loop commonly described as the Up Heeley Loop had it’s usable length increased by repositioning the exit signal (no track alterations).

And trains now going into Heeley Loop can now get flashing aspects entering the loop, making a lot quicker to enter. It used to be approach control.

 

[Killingworth]

Nice piece in Rail Engineer detailing the whole build and bring this to something of a conclusion

Not concluded yet. Possibly 6 more weekends of work to complete the piles and associated work below Poynton Wood for the Dore chord by the end of August. Also plenty of detailed work and tidying up before Dore & Totley station car park can reopen, hopefully by the end of July.



Looking again at the Rail Engineer report I note it says "Hathersage West level crossing has been replaced by a footbridge to improve public safety"

A very interesting example of how costs can escalate. Replaced by a footbridge nobody can currently use.

At the 2016 Public Inquiry there were objections to that bridge, some favouring a footpath diversion (for which land was offered) and one or two suggesting total closure would be preferable to a new bridge in the Peak District National Park. Why was a footbridge planned in the first place?

It seems that at an earlier public consultation Network Rail had encountered comment on diversion or closure of the path and decided to plan for a bridge from the start. It was suggested at the inquiry that keeping it within the National Park design guidelines would cost £750k. I can't recall anyone at the inquiry supporting a bridge and plenty objecting to it, including CPRE and the Ramblers Association. The clinching arguments seem to have been that the path was there before the railway and it was actively used every day by a few regular dog walkers.

So 2 years ago the footpath was closed to prepare for the new bridge and it was erected on 21st January 2023. Unfortunately it seems the steps to the right of my picture were supplied without the final green finish and there has been an issue connecting them to the level of the path in the field below. The bridge (and path) remains closed and that right hand side has been covered in scaffolding supported sheeting since last autumn.

Path closed for 2 years - cost of bridge probably escalated to nearer £1m? A shame the diversion or permanent closure order options weren't pursued more actively. As it is the path with its unfinished bridge is all but forgotten. Now supposed to be finished by September.

 

[ricoblade]

I’ve just seen this on Rail Advent on social media. Reading the article, it looke like a a continuation of the current service with services diverting via Hazel Grove and running a "normal" service for the Hope Valley.

Derbyshire railway line set for seven week closure​

7-week closure of line between Sheffield and Manchester because of emergency engineering work.​

Because of emergency engineering work, there will be severe disruption to passengers on services between Sheffield and Manchester Piccadilly for most of July and August.
So that the work can be carried out safely and quickly, the line will be closed from Saturday, 6 July until Sunday, 25 August.
The work is taking place at Hague Bar in New Mills in Derbyshire and is required to stabilise the ground that supports the railway.

To minimise the disruption, engineers have been working around the clock in preparation for the closure.

With the line between Sheffield and Manchester Piccadilly closed, there will inevitably be some changes to services in the area.

Between New Mills Central and Chinley stations

• Trains will be replaced by rail-replacement bus service

From Manchester to New Mills Central via Bredbury:

• Mondays to Saturdays – an hourly train service will run between Manchester Piccadilly and Marple, with a bus service running between Marple and Chinley.
• Sundays – an hourly bus service will run between Manchester Piccadilly, Bredbury, Marple and Chinley.

Between Chinley and Manchester Piccadilly

Services will be diverted to run via Hazel Grove and Stockport

• A rail-replacement bus service will run between Chinley and Marple.

The urgency of the work has come about because there is a risk of 50,000 tonnes of earth falling from the railway into the River Goyt.

Foundations will be drilled into the ground and a wall built between the railway and the river to prevent further movement of the ground.

I'd advise passengers to check National Rail enquiries for travel advice in July and August for services between Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield.
I'm sorry for the disruption the rail closure will cause passengers. The closure is the safest and quickest way for us to carry out the work so we can reopen the line fully to passengers as soon as possible.
Vitesh Solanki, Network Rail's scheme project manager

We'd like to thank our customers for their patience while this important, safety-critical work is carried out by Network Rail.
We'll do everything we can to make sure customers can still get where they want to be – but they should allow more time for their journeys.”
A spokesperson for Northern

 

[edwin_m]

I’ve just seen this on Rail Advent on social media. Reading the article, it looke like a a continuation of the current service with services diverting via Hazel Grove and running a "normal" service for the Hope Valley.

Derbyshire railway line set for seven week closure​

7-week closure of line between Sheffield and Manchester because of emergency engineering work.​

Because of emergency engineering work, there will be severe disruption to passengers on services between Sheffield and Manchester Piccadilly for most of July and August.
So that the work can be carried out safely and quickly, the line will be closed from Saturday, 6 July until Sunday, 25 August.
The work is taking place at Hague Bar in New Mills in Derbyshire and is required to stabilise the ground that supports the railway.

To minimise the disruption, engineers have been working around the clock in preparation for the closure.

With the line between Sheffield and Manchester Piccadilly closed, there will inevitably be some changes to services in the area.

Between New Mills Central and Chinley stations

• Trains will be replaced by rail-replacement bus service

From Manchester to New Mills Central via Bredbury:

• Mondays to Saturdays – an hourly train service will run between Manchester Piccadilly and Marple, with a bus service running between Marple and Chinley.
• Sundays – an hourly bus service will run between Manchester Piccadilly, Bredbury, Marple and Chinley.

Between Chinley and Manchester Piccadilly

Services will be diverted to run via Hazel Grove and Stockport

• A rail-replacement bus service will run between Chinley and Marple.

The urgency of the work has come about because there is a risk of 50,000 tonnes of earth falling from the railway into the River Goyt.

Foundations will be drilled into the ground and a wall built between the railway and the river to prevent further movement of the ground.

That's a pretty badly worded statement. It reads as if the entire Sheffield-Manchester service is suspended, whereas it only really affects anyone travelling between the Marple line and Chinley or further east.

 

[Trainman40083]

That's a pretty badly worded statement. It reads as if the entire Sheffield-Manchester service is suspended, whereas it only really affects anyone travelling between the Marple line and Chinley or further east.

I'm glad it wasn't just me that thought that. Every few weeks, Radio Derby announces rail replacement buses from Leicester to Kettering. Phoned in one day, highlighting that it only affected passengers using Market Harborough, as trains would divert via Corby Again, the announcement was poor, made by people who neither know nor query.

 

[Freemo]

Yeah my entire birthday plan is predicated on being able to get the train between Manchester and Sheffield on a Saturday, God knows there's been enough times that wasn't possible recently, getting 19 days' notice wouldn't be ideal but nothing surprises me now. Isn't it already the case that there's not trains through New Mills Central? If so it's not really closing is it.

I think there'll be a lot of people needlessly throwing their toys out of the pram taking it at face value that there's no direct service the whole summer.

 

[Killingworth]

Yeah my entire birthday plan is predicated on being able to get the train between Manchester and Sheffield on a Saturday, God knows there's been enough times that wasn't possible recently, getting 19 days' notice wouldn't be ideal but nothing surprises me now. Isn't it already the case that there's not trains through New Mills Central? If so it's not really closing is it.

I think there'll be a lot of people needlessly throwing their toys out of the pram taking it at face value that there's no direct service the whole summer.

Headline clickbait. The hourly through Northern Manchester-Sheffield service has been running successfully via Stockport and Hazel Grove for months and that's to continue.

Far more serious is the industrial action short of strikes by both ASLEF and the RMT banning overtime which is all but wiping out a reliable Sunday service - a topic for other threads!

 

[swt_passenger]

That's a pretty badly worded statement. It reads as if the entire Sheffield-Manchester service is suspended, whereas it only really affects anyone travelling between the Marple line and Chinley or further east.

Does this “news”, apparently from 4th April, actually have anything directly to do with the project covered by this thread?

Or is it about the ongoing New Mills emergency covered here:

New Mills Central landslip - 6 week closure

The weather charts are showing some pretty concerning rainfall accumulated precipitation amounts over the next 48 hours. Widely 50 - 80mm for a wide coverage Central and Northern areas. Some isolated spots could receive over 100mm of rain. Makes me wonder if this could scupper the recovery...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Killingworth]

It may be relevant in that completion of the Hope Valley work at Dore has been halted for the last 4 weeks. Rumours abound. One says men have been withdrawn for work at Hazel Grive - or could it be New Mills?

 

[Freemo]

Headline clickbait. The hourly through Northern Manchester-Sheffield service has been running successfully via Stockport and Hazel Grove for months and that's to continue.

To be fair, "passengers travelling between Sheffield and Manchester Piccadilly" comes from Network Rail themselves: https://www.networkrailmediacentre....closure-in-new-mills-for-emergency-earth-work

 

[Phillipimo]

The latest Don Coffey cabride shows an eastbound run through the upgraded valley, including being looped at Bamford and the Dore south chord. Train is a loaded 66/6 freight from Tunstead.

 

[ricoblade]

Headline clickbait. The hourly through Northern Manchester-Sheffield service has been running successfully via Stockport and Hazel Grove for months and that's to continue.

Disappointingly repeated in yesterday's Yorkshire Post.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Nor any mention that the footbridge installed at Hathersage West in January is still not open and awaits painting of one part of the structure that was delivered without its final layer of green paint. It's got impressive scaffolding and sheeting around it but it seems it can't be painted until warmer weather.

Still blocked off today, with a notice indicating footpath closed until September 2024.

Meanwhile the foot crossing just E of Hathersage has nice new shiny lights, signs and a siren:

 

[AlbertBeale]

Still blocked off today, with a notice indicating footpath closed until September 2024.

Meanwhile the foot crossing just E of Hathersage has nice new shiny lights, signs and a siren:

View attachment 160911

View attachment 160910

That looks snazzy - I've never seen a foot crossing like that before. Is it a new design?

 

[eastwestdivide]

No idea, but it includes an equivalent of the long-time French level crossing phrase "un train peut en cacher un autre" = one train may hide another!

 

[edwin_m]

That looks snazzy - I've never seen a foot crossing like that before. Is it a new design?

No idea, but it includes an equivalent of the long-time French level crossing phrase "un train peut en cacher un autre" = one train may hide another!
View attachment 160922

Looks like a combination of the latest design of Miniature Stop Light (though the lights are now standard traffic signal size rather than "miniature") with the most recent revised signage which has attempted to rationalise the plethora of signs that have appeared on crossings over the years. Nevertheless, I see they have provided some extra pole at the top in case they need to add a few more!

The positioning of the signs, lights and phone on the second photo is a little odd. They are out of the user's primary field of view, and being off to the left may cause users to look away from trains on the nearer track, which will approach from the right.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Looks like a combination of the latest design of Miniature Stop Light (though the lights are now standard traffic signal size rather than "miniature") with the most recent revised signage which has attempted to rationalise the plethora of signs that have appeared on crossings over the years. Nevertheless, I see they have provided some extra pole at the top in case they need to add a few more!

The positioning of the signs, lights and phone on the second photo is a little odd. They are out of the user's primary field of view, and being off to the left may cause users to look away from trains on the nearer track, which will approach from the right.

Mmm, see your point, although I didn't think that when I was there. The signs are right beside the enormous red/green lights, and easily readable as you approach.