Horrendous Hull Trains East Coast ride

[DarloRich]

What confuses me about all this, we had a good design in the 70s with Mk3s, 125 capable, etc, not perfect but overall a good experience and we seem to have gone backwards since then in all ways, comfort, seats, ride etc. I understand that Mk3s had to be retired, but surely once learnt the design lessons should remain in place and carried forward into new designs.

HERETIC - burn him!

( my bug bear with new trains is not that they replaced good trains but that they replaced good trains with less good trains from a passenger comfort point of view!)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

HERETIC - burn him!

( my bug bear with new trains is not that they replaced good trains but that they replaced good trains with less good trains from a passenger comfort point of view!)

I vastly think it depends what new trains are being discussed.

For example, I'd much rather have a 397 over a 350/4, a 345/710 over a 315, a 390 over a MK3, but I'd also much rather have an IC225 over an Azuma, a 175 over a 197, a 390 over an 805/807, and a Hull Trains 180 over an 802/3.

All entirely subjective and down to personal taste of course.

 

[DarloRich]

I vastly think it depends what new trains are being discussed.

For example, I'd much rather have a 397 over a 350/4, a 345/710 over a 315, a 390 over a MK3, but I'd also much rather have an IC225 over an Azuma, a 175 over a 197, a 390 over an 805/807, and a Hull Trains 180 over an 802/3.

All entirely subjective and down to personal taste of course.

One simply does not travel on a class 180.

I cant allow criticism of a class 350 to go unchallenged. They are superb trains. Much better than the trains they replaced.

The 390's are fine, especially after the recent refurb but above a mkiii? The seats aren't even close to being as comfortable but they are better than on an Azuma!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The 390's are fine, especially after the recent refurb but above a mkiii? The seats aren't even close to being as comfortable but they are better than on an Azuma!

But you must know that varies according to individual taste

 

[DarloRich]

But you must know that varies according to individual taste

Personal facts in my case

(correct obviously )

 

[mike57]

Hull Trains 180 over an 802/3

No... They catch fire, and on one memorable (for the wrong reasons) journey from London to Hull in heavy rain water was getting in through the roof. I also never found the ride that good, couple that with the underfloor engines and I think the 802s are an improvement, just a shame about the 2nd class seats, but that could be easily fixed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No... They catch fire, and on one memorable (for the wrong reasons) journey from London to Hull in heavy rain water was getting in through the roof. I also never found the ride that good, couple that with the underfloor engines and I think the 802s are an improvement, just a shame about the 2nd class seats, but that could be easily fixed.

You can’t just reply to me stating my preference with “No…” I was giving my opinion! If yours is different, that’s fine.

 

[hexagon789]

Of course a retired BR engineer is going to say that though.

He knew what he was talking about though, it was basically his job

And he isn't wrong, in the past discussions of ride quality produced several similar accounts of track quality on the major mainlines not being to quite the same standard as under BR.

I never had an issue on IC225s, which I always loved and far preferred to an HST, but the quality while riding the TfW sets doesn't feel great.

Quite lively on the increased cant deficiency section north of Newcastle from Edinburgh and I had a set get a little unsettled Darlington to York, which is pretty straight and of course almost 125mph throughout.

Nothing seems to get as unsettled as the 397s though...

 

[D6130]

And he isn't wrong, in the past discussions of ride quality produced several similar accounts of track quality on the major mainlines not being to quite the same standard as under BR.

Indeed! See the thread about Paddington-Reading!

 

[hexagon789]

Indeed! See the thread about Paddington-Reading!

Quite, as I recall he was senior track engineer (forget the actual official title) for the Western Region, so Brunel's Billiard Table was his domain if you like.

 

[43096]

Only aesthetically. Plus the engine has a bit more oomph.

So not “only”, then! And the bodyshells are different: length is around 2m shorter for a start.

To borrow a phrase, other than the bodyshells, engines and aesthetics, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Oh, and the seats…

 

[D6130]

Quite lively on the increased cant deficiency section north of Newcastle from Edinburgh and I had a set get a little unsettled Darlington to York, which is pretty straight and of course almost 125mph throughout.

I've had more than one experience travelling Southbound from Darlington to York on an Azuma when the bogies on my coach have gone into a frenzy of lateral hunting as soon as the driver shuts off power in the Tollerton/Beningborough area.

 

[mike57]

You can’t just reply to me stating my preference with “No…” I was giving my opinion! If yours is different, that’s fine.

Going off topic:

Yes I agree, every one has their favorites/preferences. We are regular (as in probably 6-10 times a year) users of their service from Hull to London, and at one point they were struggling to get a working unit into service. I have heard lots of reasons given why the 180s haven't proven reliable, and I suspect its a number of issues rather than just one.

They have always been 'unloved', I can remember at one time a few units running on the Manchester Blackpool services. Given the nature of the route it didnt matter if an engine was out. I assume it was a case even then of no one else wanting them, and I do remember whatever incarnation of Northern we were in being short of DMUs.

Back to the ECML problems, my wife, who is just about non technically minded as you can get says the ECML 'feels faster than the French TGVs', this is basically related to the ride rather than the speed things are going past the window. I have noticed with the 800s that ride quality varies even with in the same train, on a recent journey returning from Peterborough on an almost empty train when Kings X was closed we had a lot of vibrations in our carriage, moved to the next one, and ride quality was totally different.

 

[Western 52]

The 800s have motor and trailer bogies. Maybe different riding characteristics, hence why some vehicles ride better than others?

 

[hexagon789]

The 800s have motor and trailer bogies. Maybe different riding characteristics, hence why some vehicles ride better than others?

Motored vehicles ride better than the trailers on average, due to the extra weight and not having the lightweight bogies. (The leading vehicles also don't have the lightweight bogies, though they too are trailers, but generally the motored ones ride the best.)

 

[5ArchBridge]

I noticed between Edinburgh and Newcastle on one of the 800s, northbound wasn’t too bad, a bit bumpy and wobbling about (apart from in the toilet where I genuinely nearly fell over).

Southbound was terrible, at one point there was a loud bang that made me and my Mrs pause our conversation and look at each other with a concerned expression.

Sorry I don’t know the correct terms, I’m not really an enthusiast just someone who appreciates trains and takes an interest in reading this forum

 

[Sun Chariot]

Southbound was terrible, at one point there was a loud bang

It's almost as if modern railway stock for the UK market, specifically emulates the same sensation we get on our pothole-ridden roads...

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

On the comments about whether the 810s will be better, same or worse than the earlier IET types. My money is on slightly better, owing to the shorter vehicle length - should provide more capacity for the suspension to absorb shocks etc by permitting more roll and bounce while remaining within the gauge envelope. Thats another reason why moving to 26m length was a nonsense - the suspension has to be rock hard to ensure the vehicle doesn't exceed its gauging limitations.

 

[ModernRailways]

Morning All,

I’m on the 07:41 Hull Trains Paragon service from Retford to London and the ride south of Grantham has been horrendous.

Sections of severe rattling side to side, I’ve never experienced anything like it in 25 years on this line.

Is this a known issue as I’ve not seen anything.

I experienced similar on Monday travelling back from London. I travel fairly frequently along the ECML and have never experienced such rough riding as the past couple of weeks.
At one point during the journey my partner looked at me and asked if we had derailed - from my point of view it just seemed like some of the seats weren't bolted down as securely as they maybe should have been and so the arm rests were bashing up against the carriage walls but it was very loud and definitely cause for concern.

 

[dk1]

You get to know where is best to sit for the better ride. The Mk3s were exactly the same on the GEML & if you sit over the Jacob’s bogies on the 745/755 fleet you’ll find the same.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Whilst quite a bit of the West track wise is a shambles, this IET video below seems awfully lively:

 

[rg177]

I've been starting to notice this more as I tend to commute on a Friday morning down to London on the 0704 non-stop from Newcastle. I'll have had an early start so will flick through emails, do any pressing work tasks then try to nod off for a short while.

It's been impossible in recent months as the train just throws you all over the shop. And this is with a fairly empty, almost silent service! They were never smooth-riding in the first place but there's certainly a difference.

 

[duffield]

Whilst quite a bit of the West track wise is a shambles, this IET video below seems awfully lively:

That's quite alarming, and it makes the IET bodywork around the window look very flimsy!

 

[contrex]

So much for Gresley-derived double bolster's riding quality...

I'm sure I read that those bogies gave good riding qualities if they, and the track over which they run, are maintained properly.

 

[liam456]

Back to the ECML problems, my wife, who is just about non technically minded as you can get says the ECML 'feels faster than the French TGVs', this is basically related to the ride rather than the speed things are going past the window.

Couldn't agree more! Travelling often from Glasgow to Edinburgh on ScotRail's Class 385's and comparing with trips down the WCML on Pendolinos, the hop across the central belt feels faster and more lively due to what must be Hitachi's cheep and cheerful suspension on the AT200 family...

 

[6Gman]

For a really "lively" ride, the old AM4 units bouncing along the Trent Valley took some beating. Only time I wondered if we'd actually get to our destination still on the rails...

Yes, it was often a relief that they were largely used on stopping trains!

There was a very early Crewe-Brum service they worked; run from Whitmore to Stafford could be ... lively.

 

[317362]

The down Berks and Hants just round from Midgham gives a far worse ride on a through/fast 387 than on an IET, which has confused me for some time, there are now 3 violentish jolts there over a half mile that don't happen to IETs.

 

[dk1]

The down Berks and Hants just round from Midgham gives a far worse ride on a through/fast 387 than on an IET, which has confused me for some time, there are now 3 violentish jolts there over a half mile that don't happen to IETs.

HST journeys on the B&H were pretty horrendous at any time. Shaken from limb to limb.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I'm sure I read that those bogies gave good riding qualities if they, and the track over which they run, are maintained properly.

You're absolutely right; I've also read that the double bolster bogie design rode more smoothly and quietly, than the BR1.

I suspect the Vic-Bury route culprit was the track.

 

[dan4291]

I've had more than one experience travelling Southbound from Darlington to York on an Azuma when the bogies on my coach have gone into a frenzy of lateral hunting as soon as the driver shuts off power in the Tollerton/Beningborough area.

That was definitely the track that was the problem there. Network Rail replaced that section of track a few months ago and it's much smoother.

In my experience of travelling passenger on various 80x comfort depends on where you sit within the carriage, and the closer to the bogies you sit the more shaky the ride can be, although given what I've written at the beginning of my post, how can the travelling public tell if it's the train or the track that's the problem?