Horrendous Hull Trains East Coast ride

[danbarjon]

But you must know that varies according to individual taste

I agree, I used to travel SP before refurb and now I'm Standard all the way. They are great seats. But that's just my personal opinion.

 

[HarryF]

The only section of the East Coast Main Line I’ve ever nearly thought the train I was on had derailed was when it went over the points for the down down fast to down slow crossover south of Thirsk station, that was a Mk4 rake and I haven’t tried it on an Azuma.

 

[irish_rail]

The front coach on an HST was legendary for the rough ride, you get the bounce of the leading power car transmitted through the coupler. Going into London there was definitely two grades of First Class with the two FOs at the front of the train having notably different levels of ride quaquality

I do remember the pullman staff used to say they got thrown about alot more in the HSTs when the restaurant was toward the back of the train, and less so when the restaurant was at the front.
 

 

[paul1609]

If you come in to St Pancras on HS1 at 140 mph on a Hitachi train and then go out on the ECMl on a similar Hitachi train at 125 mph and the ride is much worse it's pretty obvious that the problem is the maintenance of the track. Especially when the ride was just as bad on a hst.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I do remember the pullman staff used to say they got thrown about alot more in the HSTs when the restaurant was toward the back of the train, and less so when the restaurant was at the front.
 

I guess ‘thrown around’ implies a lateral movement, the front coach up/down bounce was more what I was thinking of. (I did a 2+4 HST Cardiff-Bristol during the final weeks of November, and sitting in the TGS’s ‘Premier Seat’ I quickly became reacquainted with it! It was actually quite reminiscent of many years of Mk3 enjoyment. Somehow I doubt Ill feel the same about 800s after 30 years of being thrown around on the GWML.)

 

[Llandudno]

For a really "lively" ride, the old AM4 units bouncing along the Trent Valley took some beating. Only time I wondered if we'd actually get to our destination still on the rails...

Yep, I remember those units along with ex Glasgow 303s? bouncing and rattling along between Liverpool and Crewe in the 1980s. The service ran hourly using just 2 units with very tight turnarounds so the drivers didn’t hang around!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

As per other posters on this thread - it is extremely variable - and from my own experience I disagree that "fearing for your life" is hyperbolic to describe what IETs occasionally seem to do.

I've traveled this line probably a thousand times over a few decades - plus the length most other UK mainlines albeit much less frequently, travelling on business. The only time I've momentarily feared for my life on a train was on an IET between Reading and Paddington.

It was always fairly bouncy and lurchy on HSTs to be fair. Also, in general on IETs it varies from surprisingly smooth to broadly rather harsh and jittery with a tendency to hunt and occasional (presumed) bottoming out of the suspension.

However, from time to time and seemingly at random, things can go to a different level. A few years ago, I was on an IET on this stretch which started prolonged violent lateral and vertical shaking plus alarmingly loud banging from bogies/underfloor equipment to a point where I'd already located the emergency handle. I was hovering around the trigger point for pulling it despite a very British fear of public humiliation for overreacting. What happened at Eschede came to mind. Other passengers were popping up from their seats wide-eyed and ashen faced and a few moved to other carriages.

More recently, most journeys have been relatively smooth. Also, I've increasingly tended to sit in the front carriage of the train for other reasons, with the driver not far away. My logic is if the person with the brakes literally to hand is conscious and not bricking it, it's probably fine.

Sounds exactly like my journey, but I was going the other way.

Yep, I remember those units along with ex Glasgow 303s? bouncing and rattling along between Liverpool and Crewe in the 1980s. The service ran hourly using just 2 units with very tight turnarounds so the drivers didn’t hang around!

I once did Hatfield to Kings Cross fast on a 313. That's a story in and of itself but as we went over the New Barnet crossovers at 75mph on the up fast I can remember the bouncing was so rough bags fell from the overhead racks. What a journey.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

So legendary, that I've never heard anyone mention it, ever, until now. And that is after both travelling many tens of thousands of miles in the leading vehicle of an HST and it has never come up in any conversation I have had with people who have travelled on them far more than I have. No trailer vehicle in an HST can be said to have anything like a rough ride unless it was completely knackered - indeed the Mark 3/BT10 remains the epitome of ride quality (which is frankly embarrassing to what has come since given the design is over 50 years old!).

Amazing, pretty much every time I’ve sat in the TGS at the front end of an HST over 15 years of travelling on them, or the front FO going towards London, the suspension has been topping and bottoming out pretty continuously at speed. Not a rough ride in the sense of an 80x going all over the shop but certainly not the same smooth glide you get with the intermediate vehicles.

 

[Egg Centric]

This extensive talk of extreme rough riding these days is a concern. One wonders how far from a derailment such rough riding really is - if a not-too-remote chance meeting of circumstances happened, I can see it being a real possibility. Hunting/rhythmical swaying only needs to get to a certain intensity and then a crossing or slightly sub-standard section of track is traversed for it go sideways (literally). It really is pretty poor that in the modern age, rough riding is still a concern on major routes (not to mention the discomfort of passengers!). I cannot help thinking that lightweight bogies may come back to bite us.

There is no such extensive talk. Without saying it's the case for anyone in this thread - some may just be joking - the vast majority of online reports are from non neurotypical rail enthusiasts who have a gift of extra sensitivity to movement and thus magnify the relatively subtle differences between different types of stock.

A quick look at the fairly recent incident in Peterborough where a Lumo went about 3 times the limit round some points and the chaos inside without derailment shows what these things can actually do. You will absolutely know if you're anywhere close to being derailed, weird edge cases about resonant frequencies aside.

 

[Samzino]

There is no such extensive talk. Without saying it's the case for anyone in this thread - some may just be joking - the vast majority of online reports are from non neurotypical rail enthusiasts who have a gift of extra sensitivity to movement and thus magnify the relatively subtle differences between different types of stock.

A quick look at the fairly recent incident in Peterborough where a Lumo went about 3 times the limit round some points and the chaos inside without derailment shows what these things can actually do. You will absolutely know if you're anywhere close to being derailed, weird edge cases about resonant frequencies aside.

This.
It's very clear most of the track conditions where IETs for example and 345s ride are of shocking quality. For example the 345s in the cos ride very smoothly and on the east, get past Acton and they suddenly feel like the suspension has disappeared.

IETs rough ride just like the HSTs did of course the lighter overall weight adds to the longer time it takes for the disturbance to stabilise. I do believe recency bias has a factor in some posts here that are saying the IET is nearly derail levels worse in riding than the HST.

Seating also has had a play in the lack of direct passenger dampening to a degree. That however is not exactly a rolling stock issue but a DFT issue. I seem to remember the reduction in padding was suppose to be for fire risk reductions or something.

 

[43066]

it is extremely variable - and from my own experience I disagree that "fearing for your life" is hyperbolic to describe what IETs occasionally seem to do.

Yet we don’t hear of entire trainloads of passengers panicking every time an 8XX crosses a junction at speed, or see people being injured and pulling passcoms. We don’t even hear of regular complaints about rough riding to (or from) the staff who spend their entire working day on these trains.

That suggests these episodes of mortal fear are something of a niche pursuit, limited to those who frequent this forum. Finding the ride a little firm/jittery and fearing for one’s life, are two very different things for most people.

There is no such extensive talk. Without saying it's the case for anyone in this thread - some may just be joking - the vast majority of online reports are from non neurotypical rail enthusiasts who have a gift of extra sensitivity to movement and thus magnify the relatively subtle differences between different types of stock.

Absolutely this. I’m convinced a similar phenomenon (hypersensitivity to sound) explains the endless complaining about announcements.

 

[DelW]

There is no such extensive talk. Without saying it's the case for anyone in this thread - some may just be joking - the vast majority of online reports are from non neurotypical rail enthusiasts who have a gift of extra sensitivity to movement and thus magnify the relatively subtle differences between different types of stock.

That suggests these episodes of mortal fear are something of a niche pursuit, limited to those who frequent this forum. Finding the ride a little firm/jittery and fearing for one’s life, are two very different things for most people.

If you haven't experienced one of these episodes, why do you feel qualified to deny the experience of those who have? I've travelled around the country by train for decades, in stock from mk1s onwards, and I've encountered plenty of rough riding, bounciness and the like. But the occasions I mentioned earlier at Didcot were nothing like those.

The nearest comparison I have is of an aircraft hitting clear-weather turbulence - you're going along all pleasant and as normal, and then without warning, everything is shaking and banging around you. For me, it didn't last long, but it was certainly enough to be concerning while it lasted, even if we were indeed probably quite a long way short of actually derailing.

It's some unusual combination of circumstances that must cause it, as I've been through Didcot on IETs dozens of times when it didn't happen. Maybe it's a combination of certain speeds, track conditions and bogie suspension maintenance? But a number of the reports above are exactly consistent with my experience.

 

[stuu]

There is no such extensive talk. Without saying it's the case for anyone in this thread - some may just be joking - the vast majority of online reports are from non neurotypical rail enthusiasts who have a gift of extra sensitivity to movement and thus magnify the relatively subtle differences between different types of stock.

A quick look at the fairly recent incident in Peterborough where a Lumo went about 3 times the limit round some points and the chaos inside without derailment shows what these things can actually do. You will absolutely know if you're anywhere close to being derailed, weird edge cases about resonant frequencies aside.

Non neurotypical? You are no doubt a medical professional to make that conclusion?

The time I have mentioned in this thread, there were many people looking alarmed, many people holding on to the seats and asking each other if this was normal.

How many of the people in a standard class carriage on the 1803 from Paddington would you expect to be non-neurotypical?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

“Non-neurotypical”

Presumably that diagnosis also extends to notable members of the railway technical press who have refered to the 80x ride quality problems both in their publications and on Twitter.

 

[Grumpy]

Well there was something in the train spec, although what a 'mean ride index' of 1.6 means in real life I dont know

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79b82e40f0b63d72fc7f58/tts-redacted.pdf

It's many years since I did Statistics exams but surely the acceptance of an arithmetic mean ride index is too simplistic? You could achieve a mean average with some wide deviations. Shouldn't there be an absolute limit on deviations?

Either the specification is wrong or the vehicles aren't compliant. Assuming the ECML track data is correct.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only time I've been genuinely concerned about a train's ride was on a Mk4 set - I think it may well have been at the location mentioned on this thread. It was a very rough juddering that made me think a bogie had derailed. I was seriously thinking of getting up and pulling the passcom (had reached the "looking around to see if anyone else looks concerned" stage) and it stopped.

That said, 80x do have a very rough ride at times, which is very poor for new stock which should be silky smooth.

 

[Toby268]

Carnforth junction at 110/125 depending on the stock is thrilling… more so northbound

 

[matchmaker]

Yep, I remember those units along with ex Glasgow 303s? bouncing and rattling along between Liverpool and Crewe in the 1980s. The service ran hourly using just 2 units with very tight turnarounds so the drivers didn’t hang around!

For a bad ride you had to experience being over the power bogie of a 303!

 

[D6130]

For a bad ride you had to experience being over the power bogie of a 303!

Indeed....or equally a 302, 304, 305 or 308.

 

[gabrielhj07]

The only time I've been genuinely concerned about a train's ride was on a Mk4 set

More often than on other stock, I find that the bins & seats have come loose and a small wobble causes them to loudly bang against something next to it.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The nearest comparison I have is of an aircraft hitting clear-weather turbulence - you're going along all pleasant and as normal, and then without warning, everything is shaking and banging around you. For me, it didn't last long, but it was certainly enough to be concerning while it lasted, even if we were indeed probably quite a long way short of actually derailing.

It's some unusual combination of circumstances that must cause it, as I've been through Didcot on IETs dozens of times when it didn't happen. Maybe it's a combination of certain speeds, track conditions and bogie suspension maintenance? But a number of the reports above are exactly consistent with my experience.

The comparison with clear-air turbulence is appropriate. I think that’s why rough riding on the GWML on plain sections of line is concerning - if the line is straight, level and there’s no pointwork to disturb the ride then it should be smooth. People are saying X or Y junction is rough - yes but that’s expected, there’s places on the GWML you anticipate getting bumped around a bit too. (Wootton Bassett is a historically relevant example.) However you don’t expect the ride to suddenly deteriorate on plain, straight track, often without any noticeable initiating event such as a wet bed or a track twist - which you would detect from the vertical ride. Sustained lateral movement should not simply just occur in modern rolling stock, the system should be designed to remain stable without external inputs. High speed bogie oscillation and the associated damping to suppress it has been a fundamental engineering principle since the 1960s.

 

[AM9]

Indeed....or equally a 302, 304, 305 or 308.

I know these references back to MK1 experiences are OT, but remember that they had seats with 150mm of steel springs and horse hair to attenuate track and suspension deficiencies.

 

[BogiePicker]

Ime, the 80Xs ride very well between Leeds and Donny, and fall to bits thereafter.

Mk4s aren't perfect either.

An EMR HST on the Leeds-Donny route is one of the best rides I've done. Still remember the very pleasurable combination of speed and smooth comfort.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mk4s are dire. Nice interior but they ride like a cart.

 

[AM9]

This.
It's very clear most of the track conditions where IETs for example and 345s ride are of shocking quality. For example the 345s in the cos ride very smoothly and on the east, get past Acton and they suddenly feel like the suspension has disappeared.

IETs rough ride just like the HSTs did of course the lighter overall weight adds to the longer time it takes for the disturbance to stabilise. I do believe recency bias has a factor in some posts here that are saying the IET is nearly derail levels worse in riding than the HST.

Seating also has had a play in the lack of direct passenger dampening to a degree. That however is not exactly a rolling stock issue but a DFT issue. I seem to remember the reduction in padding was suppose to be for fire risk reductions or something.

Sure, there is a large dose of nostalgia in this thread, but not all recent train designs have suspensions poorer than the trains that they have replaced. Take the stock on the MML south. Like the ECML and the GWR, the MML line has some pretty rough sections of track, a major one near Mill Hill, in less than 10 miles from St Pancras. This section has a very frequent service on the fasts currenly running at 100+mph, - the 222s of EMR, the 700s (and previously, 387s and 319s) on Thameslink duties. The Meridians with their Flexx bogies run pretty trouble-free, but with each car bearing power cars, their ride is generally quite good. However, the class 700s with their overall light weight, their light inside frame SF7000 bogies handle the bumps pretty well. Their immediate predecessors, brand new class 387s, there were a series of violent lateral shocks. The class 319 bogies with their 40 year old BR10 bogies were more capable than the Electrostars but nowhere near as good as the 700s.

 

[cambsy]

One of the worst rides ive known is a 379 Great Northern service between Kings Lynn and Cambridge, very lively ride,bouncing around,more fun to me than scary. In 80’s and 90’s when drivers pushed harder, I have had some very lively runs with the 225’s when they were speeding, and hammering it, and had cup of coffee fly off table between Newcastle and Edinburgh, on late running service, with speeds 130-135 mph.

I have had very lively runs with mk l’s on railtours when drivers been thrashing and speeding with their locos, noticeably between Swansea and Cardiff, and Penzance and Plymouth,when drivers pushed hard and probably took curves liberally, had mk 2’s giving lively ride with Deltic doing 116mph down Shap and Beattick, and with 86’s on Birmingham-Euston trains doing 110mph etc.

So ive had lively and bouncing running with all sort of trains over the years, which personally doesn’t bother me,and certainly not scare me, but each to their own.

 

[43096]

Mk4s are dire. Nice interior but they ride like a cart.

But are significantly better riding than an IET. That is not to play up the Mark 4 ride, but to illustrate just how utterly dire the IET is. It will be intresting to see how the sets for EMR ride given the significant differences in bodyshell from the 80x fleets.

 

[Sun Chariot]

For "lively", rather than "unsettling and worrying" -

My liveliest ride (other than the enthusiastic lass at uni first term...) was a NSE "Cobbler", Euston to Leighton Buzzard in 1987. 85 up front. 28 minutes, from Euston to LB, including the stop at Watford. I swear the Roarer's driver had a secret extra notch....

 

[ModernRailways]

I experienced similar on Monday travelling back from London. I travel fairly frequently along the ECML and have never experienced such rough riding as the past couple of weeks.
At one point during the journey my partner looked at me and asked if we had derailed - from my point of view it just seemed like some of the seats weren't bolted down as securely as they maybe should have been and so the arm rests were bashing up against the carriage walls but it was very loud and definitely cause for concern.

Coming back to this, I have since done another return trip and on both trips it was totally uneventful and just the usual IET poor ride quality. Certainly nothing worth writing about so could this just be some rogue units/carriages?

 

[mikeb42]

Yet we don’t hear of entire trainloads of passengers panicking every time an 8XX crosses a junction at speed, or see people being injured and pulling passcoms. We don’t even hear of regular complaints about rough riding to (or from) the staff who spend their entire working day on these trains.

That suggests these episodes of mortal fear are something of a niche pursuit, limited to those who frequent this forum. Finding the ride a little firm/jittery and fearing for one’s life, are two very different things for most people.

Right. This was precisely my point. 1000+ journeys up and down the same bit of line and precisely once, for no apparent reason, the train did something way outside the normal envelope of bouncy/vibratey/lurchy/noisy etc etc variability and really alarming on its own terms.

I didn't think it was in danger of derailing because it's poorly designed or because the track is poor quality - more like something had broken.

When my car did something analogous at high speed I stopped and got out of it at the first opportunity! Broken coil spring, detached track rod end and various other broken bits after hitting a pothole at 20+ m/s!