Horrendous Hull Trains East Coast ride

[Egg Centric]

Non neurotypical? You are no doubt a medical professional to make that conclusion?

The time I have mentioned in this thread, there were many people looking alarmed, many people holding on to the seats and asking each other if this was normal.

How many of the people in a standard class carriage on the 1803 from Paddington would you expect to be non-neurotypical?

I am neither a medical professional nor a medical unprofessional and in any case I would never think to "diagnose" anyone in this thread or indeed any other person as being non neurotypical but you'd have to have your head in the sand to not recognise that there is a very high association between rail enthusiasm and being non neurotypical (I myself am non neurotypical and more sensitive to movement than the average person).

FWIW I would also not be particularly bothered by "normies" seeming concerned by a train's ride either. Normies get upset at all kinds of totally routine stuff, as anyone who's flown enough knows.

Where are the staff concerned about trains getting even vaguely close to derailment?

None of this is to claim that the 80xs ride as well as mk3s. I absolutely agree they're not as good. But the difference is not that great to normies, any more than they will e.g. understand my obsession with my car's electronic throttle and clutch delay valve.

 

[stuu]

I am neither a medical professional nor a medical unprofessional and in any case I would never think to "diagnose" anyone in this thread or indeed any other person as being non neurotypical but you'd have to have your head in the sand to not recognise that there is a very high association between rail enthusiasm and being non neurotypical (I myself am non neurotypical and more sensitive to movement than the average person).
l.
FWIW I would also not be particularly bothered by "normies" seeming concerned by a train's ride either. Normies get upset at all kinds of totally routine stuff, as anyone who's flown enough knows.

Where are the staff concerned about trains getting even vaguely close to derailment?

None of this is to claim that the 80xs ride as well as mk3s. I absolutely agree they're not as good. But the difference is not that great to normies, any more than they will e.g. understand my obsession with my car's electronic throttle and clutch delay valve.

And yet you did. I, to the best of my knowledge, are not non-neurotypical, and have spent plenty of time on roller coasters, skiing, skateboarding, cycling and many other activities involving movement, and have experienced one, single time of being alarmed by a train. Once. One single time in 48 years of train travel.

Don't make judgements on behalf of other people, ever, unless you have been in their shoes

 

[Egg Centric]

And yet you did. I, to the best of my knowledge, are not non-neurotypical, and have spent plenty of time on roller coasters, skiing, skateboarding, cycling and many other activities involving movement, and have experienced one, single time of being alarmed by a train. Once. One single time in 48 years of train travel.

Don't make judgements on behalf of other people, ever, unless you have been in their shoes

No I didn't. If you thought I did then I guess I didn't express myself clearly enough

 

[DelW]

No I didn't. If you thought I did then I guess I didn't express myself clearly enough

Really? I think you might need to reread your post #99, which seemed pretty judgemental in its blithe dismissal of other people's experiences.

 

[43066]

If you haven't experienced one of these episodes, why do you feel qualified to deny the experience of those who have?

I’m not denying anything, but experience is entirely subjective, and I’m simply asking why we don’t hear of this more widely, and questioning how representative these experiences are. Other people must be experiencing exactly the same train movements, and yet apparently most don’t register them as a big deal, let alone end up fearing for their lives.

In your case at Didcot did you mention it to the crew? If they felt it was significant they would most likely have reported rough riding to the signaller. If they didn’t, that suggests it’s within the normal range. It’s also possible you crossed a bad patch just before an emergency speed restriction was imposed.

Non neurotypical? You are no doubt a medical professional to make that conclusion?

People on the autistic spectrum, in particular, can be hypersensitive to external stimuli such as movement and noise. You don’t need to be a medical professional to make that observation, and it’s something anyone with even a passing familiarity with the condition will be aware of.

Nobody has suggested that applies to any particular individual on this thread, but it’s a fairly common for railway enthusiasts to be on the autistic spectrum, and that may well be a factor in why certain people perceive things more vividly than others.

For a bad ride you had to experience being over the power bogie of a 303!

Or the cab of an HST - no air suspension on the power cars.

But are significantly better riding than an IET. That is not to play up the Mark 4 ride, but to illustrate just how utterly dire the IET is.

I disagree. I’ve ridden a quite few of each over the last few weeks, and frankly prefer the IET.

It’s clear that some on here are stuck in the past and will never accept anything could be an improvement over 1970s HSTs with mk3s, or 1980s 91s with mk4s, if pushed. There’s little to be gained from that viewpoint in 2024.

 

[stuu]

I’m not denying anything, but experience is entirely subjective, and I’m simply asking why we don’t hear of this more widely, and questioning how representative these experiences are. Other people must be experiencing exactly the same train movements, and yet apparently most don’t register them as a big deal, let alone end up fearing for their lives.

Because, for a start, wondering/worrying for a few seconds that something has gone terribly wrong and then nothing actually happening isn't particularly interesting or noteworthy. You just get on with life and forget about it, unless you happen to have an interest in rail transport in which case you ask a question on a niche Internet forum.

People on the autistic spectrum, in particular, can be hypersensitive to external stimuli such as movement and noise. You don’t need to be a medical professional to make that observation, and it’s something anyone with even a passing familiarity with the condition will be aware of.

Absolutely. But the poster was clearly suggesting that noticing these unusual ride characteristics was down to those factors rather than actually something that happened.

 

[43066]

Because, for a start, wondering/worrying for a few seconds that something has gone terribly wrong and then nothing actually happening isn't particularly interesting or noteworthy. You just get on with life and forget about it,

It’s just interesting how perceptions vary - I have reported rough riding a few times and yet it’s never been *that* severe that I’ve felt fearful, or that the train has derailed.

Absolutely. But the poster was clearly suggesting that noticing these unusual ride characteristics was down to those factors rather than actually something that happened.

I think the suggestion was more that those ride characteristics are being perceived differently. I’d agree with that - as noted above there’s a parallel with the announcements thread, where many hardly notice them, yet others seem to find them absolutely intolerable.

 

[uglymonkey]

I also think it depends on which seat, where you sit ( over or not) on a bogie and which coach/carriage you are, and also how far away the unit has been from its last visit ( or inspection) at a depot for different effects. Maybe even how loaded your coach/carriage is ( which is it?). Heavy loaded more chance of the suspension "bottoming out" with a Clang" than lightly loaded, when the travel doesn't come near to bottoming out.

 

[nlogax]

I think the suggestion was more that those ride characteristics are being perceived differently. I’d agree with that - as noted above there’s a parallel with the announcements thread, where many hardly notice them, yet others seem to find them absolutely intolerable.

This feels like the root of the issue. Perceptions and experiences differ when it comes to most aspects of rail travel. Seat comfort is probably the most well known of these. For ride quality beyond the Network Rail database populated by NMT trips and other equipment we have no agreed-upon standard of what's good or otherwise on the network or how 'good' is even defined. All we have are our personal experiences..one passenger's IET nightmare wobble-a-thon jouruney is another's air-cushioned glide. I recall reference to a ride quality collection app for phones but never found more info about it and whether this was something available to everyday passengers.

On this forum there appears to be a general perception that things aren't great due to various factors (track maintenance regime or lack thereof, lighter, more 'cost-efficient' bogie manufacture etc) but I'd be keen to understand what the actual data looks like and whether we're seeing an actual trend or otherwise.

 

[paul1609]

But are significantly better riding than an IET. That is not to play up the Mark 4 ride, but to illustrate just how utterly dire the IET is. It will be intresting to see how the sets for EMR ride given the significant differences in bodyshell from the 80x fleets.

I had a rare ride on the ECML up to Peterborough yesterday. On the way up it was an IET not significantly worse than the 395 Id come in to ST Pancras on although its pretty obvious the track maintenance isnt up to scratch. Pointwork seems to be a consistant weak point. On the way back it was a MK4 set ride was so bad I gave up trying to read my mobile. So I wouldnt agree that the Mk4 is better than the IET.

 

[DelW]

I’m not denying anything, but experience is entirely subjective, and I’m simply asking why we don’t hear of this more widely, and questioning how representative these experiences are. Other people must be experiencing exactly the same train movements, and yet apparently most don’t register them as a big deal, let alone end up fearing for their lives.

Please don't gratuitously misquote me - I haven't referred to fearing for my life, or anything remotely near it. In my first post (#10) I said "It's quite concerning at its worst." I stand by that, as a passenger it was "quite concerning" for a few moments, but I've never suggested anything more than that.

In your case at Didcot did you mention it to the crew? If they felt it was significant they would most likely have reported rough riding to the signaller. If they didn’t, that suggests it’s within the normal range. It’s also possible you crossed a bad patch just before an emergency speed restriction was imposed.

No, what would the point have been? It only lasted maybe 15 - 20 seconds at a guess, after which all went back to normal. Unless it was specific to my coach, the train crew would have felt it themselves. And if they hadn't, their response might have been like that of many on here, dismissing it as an invention, a joke, or the result of hypersensitivity to movement.

But it is a rare occurence. I've travelled along that stretch of the GWML numerous times, in trains from early mk2s in the late 1960s, through HSTs to IETs and mk1s on charters, at all sorts of different speeds. None of those have ever set up the kind of violent lateral movement I'm talking about, apart from on two occasions. I'll reiterate - it's not the normal riding of IETs that I'm referring to, it's a quite different and unusual event, but very unpleasant to experience.

 

[northwichcat]

They look the part, but the ride quality leaves much to be desired, as I found out when I travelled on one between Glasgow Central & Manchester Piccadilly en-route to visit a close friend in the East Midlands for a couple days in November 2022. I should've expected as much given they're CAF, but by oath, trying to use the loo (I think between Penrith & Oxenholme) was a barrel of chuckles. The ride did improve somewhat south of Preston and on to Bolton and Manchester, but still not brilliant.

Having done a ride to the North East on a TPE Hitachi Train and one to Edinburgh on a CAF train, I would say the Hitachi was the better. However, I'm not a fan of a section of window being covered by a blind even when they are fully up. I found the CAF train had a seat that sounded like floorboards in an old house when I moved and concur the ride quality was poor at speed. I think the Edinburgh route has a longer proportion of over 100mph running than the Newcastle one, which probably doesn't help form positive opinions of the CAF option.

 

[leighsw2]

Thats definitely true, didn’t certain Mk1 vehicles receive Gresley bogies (possibly restaurant cars) in the decade before Commonwealth bogies came along?

Had a run down the ECML to York last year in a Mk1 FO mounted on commonwealth bogies (running up to 75mph). Pretty smooth and nothing got spilled!

 

[stuu]

Please don't gratuitously misquote me - I haven't referred to fearing for my life, or anything remotely near it. In my first post (#10) I said "It's quite concerning at its worst." I stand by that, as a passenger it was "quite concerning" for a few moments, but I've never suggested anything more than that.


No, what would the point have been? It only lasted maybe 15 - 20 seconds at a guess, after which all went back to normal. Unless it was specific to my coach, the train crew would have felt it themselves. And if they hadn't, their response might have been like that of many on here, dismissing it as an invention, a joke, or the result of hypersensitivity to movement.

But it is a rare occurence. I've travelled along that stretch of the GWML numerous times, in trains from early mk2s in the late 1960s, through HSTs to IETs and mk1s on charters, at all sorts of different speeds. None of those have ever set up the kind of violent lateral movement I'm talking about, apart from on two occasions. I'll reiterate - it's not the normal riding of IETs that I'm referring to, it's a quite different and unusual event, but very unpleasant to experience.

Round of applause.

This is absolutely in line with my experience. It happened once, and never before or since have I experienced anything like it on a train. And now I know it can happen I won't be as concerned again. But when complete strangers are asking each other if everything is ok, then something is seriously unusual and not down to perception.

But of course it was down to everyone in the carriage having undiagnosed autism

 

[takethegame]

I dug this out taken on 14th August 2017 at 0803 from the front of coach M on a VTEC HST 125 (0741 PBO to KGX) which always was a few minutes late, so I'd assume at I was somewhere near Huntingdon at that point.

 

[AM9]

I dug this out taken on 14th August 2017 at 0803 from the front of coach M on a VTEC HST 125 (0741 PBO to KGX) which always was a few minutes late, so I'd assume at I was somewhere near Huntingdon at that point.

Rather meaninless as the camera isn't being held in the same place. It would be more useful if you held the camera at a fixed position on the table. Even allowing for that shortcoming, the drink didn't spill despite the cup being flared and wide at the top.
Obviously I don't have a video clip to demonstrate, but in the '70s, I regularly travelled in the griddle car of class 309 trains which ran at 100mph on the GEML. With their Commonwealth Bogies, they were the best riders of any EMU design, but a rough one (or hitting a crossover at speed) required the placement of a floating spoon in the cup to stabilise the liquid.Worked a treat.

 

[43066]

Please don't gratuitously misquote me - I haven't referred to fearing for my life, or anything remotely near it. In my first post (#10) I said "It's quite concerning at its worst." I stand by that, as a passenger it was "quite concerning" for a few moments, but I've never suggested anything more than that.

I’ve done nothing of the sort. In the post I quoted you were referring in general terms to the experiences being described on the thread, and another person did state that.

I dug this out taken on 14th August 2017 at 0803 from the front of coach M on a VTEC HST 125 (0741 PBO to KGX) which always was a few minutes late, so I'd assume at I was somewhere near Huntingdon at that point.

The ride quality of the mk3 coaches tends to be overstated, certainly based on my memories of them!

 

[Sun Chariot]

The ride quality of the mk3 coaches tends to be overstated, certainly based on my memories of them!

When I travelled in them, 1980s and early 1990s, I was quite surprised at how many had minor flange "flats". I recall their rhythmic thumping and minor vibration transmitted into the coach.

 

[takethegame]

Rather meaninless as the camera isn't being held in the same place. It would be more useful if you held the camera at a fixed position on the table. Even allowing for that shortcoming, the drink didn't spill despite the cup being flared and wide at the top.
Obviously I don't have a video clip to demonstrate, but in the '70s, I regularly travelled in the griddle car of class 309 trains which ran at 100mph on the GEML. With their Commonwealth Bogies, they were the best riders of any EMU design, but a rough one (or hitting a crossover at speed) required the placement of a floating spoon in the cup to stabilise the liquid.Worked a treat.

Alas I was just sitting there on my phone without a professional set up on the way to work and was being buffeted around as well. You can clearly see the coffee is moving of its own accord!

 

[stevieinselby]

I've had the same hunting issues on two different HT units travelling from Doncaster to Temple Hirst – although they were fine between Temple Hirst and Selby, but this may be because they were travelling much slower.
No problems on LNER travelling south on the same route, so I don't know if there is any difference in the quality of track on the up and down lines, or if LNER have a better maintenance programme than HT.
On both occasions, I have reported the problem to HT but not had any subsequent feedback.

 

[Fisherman80]

I recently did a 14 day all line rover so I travelled on quite a few different types of train.
On the 21st of February I boarded 385115 at Haymarket on a late running service to Glasgow Queen Street. I was sat in first class and could not believe the ride quality.
This particular unit was moving quite violently from side to side and the ride quality was something I hadn't experienced since the class 141s nearly 30 years previously! The train was also making one hell of a racket........is this usual as it was my first ride on this particular class.
I know the title thread is about The Hull Trains IETs but are there any links as both classes of trains are built by Hitachi.

 

[stevieinselby]

Ime, the 80Xs ride very well between Leeds and Donny, and fall to bits thereafter.

That may be because the line between Leeds and Doncatraz is max 100mph, and the hunting problem seems to generally kick in above 100.

 

[al78]

I dug this out taken on 14th August 2017 at 0803 from the front of coach M on a VTEC HST 125 (0741 PBO to KGX) which always was a few minutes late, so I'd assume at I was somewhere near Huntingdon at that point.

That doesn't look like much deviation from normality to me. On the routes I use there have occasionally been short lived periods of heavy shaking over and above normal.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Connington South - Fletton was lively this morning in the leading carriage of a MkIV set. The impression I got was that the vehicle was moving about more than an 801, but those movements weren't as harsh.

 

[AM9]

Alas I was just sitting there on my phone without a professional set up on the way to work and was being buffeted around as well. You can clearly see the coffee is moving of its own accord!

You don't need a "professional setup", just hold the phone steady so that it moves with the train, e.g. the table. Then it is easier to see what movement the train imposes on the drink.

 

[rew_mac]

The 800s have motor and trailer bogies. Maybe different riding characteristics, hence why some vehicles ride better than others?

In my experience travelling in 80* trains, the middle of a driving trailer vehicle has a reasonably smooth ride.
When travelling with luggage, I like to be close to the luggage racks, so that means seat at the end of a coach, over a bogie, where there is more lateral (yaw) motion. Two recent journeys on ECML, March 2024, were particularly uncomfortable south of Doncaster, with severe lateral oscillation at times, bad enough to trigger a conversation with train manager. Maintenance teams need to check yaw dampers.
Seats in 80* have hard shallow cushions in both standard and first class. These need to be improved.

Problems have been identified in class 80x mounting points for yaw dampers and anti-roll systems.
Since passengers are noticing ongoing problems with ride quality, it looks like more work needs to be done.

Rail regulator publishes Class 800 series safety report | Office of Rail and Road

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) – the economic and safety regulator of Britain’s railway – has made several recommendations from its review of how the rail industry responded to the potential safety issues leading to the withdrawal of Hitachi Rail’s Class 800 series trains in May last year.

www.orr.gov.uk

 

[43066]

Since passengers are noticing ongoing problems with ride quality, it looks like more work needs to be done.

Some people on here have complained, but it’s not at all clear how reflective that sample is of passengers generally.

 

[DanNCL]

Problems have been identified in class 80x mounting points for yaw dampers and anti-roll systems.
Since passengers are noticing ongoing problems with ride quality, it looks like more work needs to be done.

Rail regulator publishes Class 800 series safety report | Office of Rail and Road

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) – the economic and safety regulator of Britain’s railway – has made several recommendations from its review of how the rail industry responded to the potential safety issues leading to the withdrawal of Hitachi Rail’s Class 800 series trains in May last year.

www.orr.gov.uk

That article is two years old and relates to the cracks found in 2021, nothing to to with ride quality.

 

[rew_mac]

Surely the report is still relevant? If the design engineers got the interface between coach body and bogies sorted, then the yaw dampers and their mountings would be subject to less loading. Safety and comfort issues are part of the same spectrum.

 

[AM9]

Some people on here have complained, but it’s not at all clear how reflective that sample is of passengers generally.

... and that fact that complainers, more than those satisfied, are much more likely to post if they think they have an audience.