How can Paddington - Penzance services be sped up

[Busaholic]

Penzance itself isn't that busy, it's a "local town for local people" with far less tourist traffic than say St Ives.

I'd dispute almost every word of that. St Ives is a major day trip destination, many of those people arriving by train having come from Penzance. Penzance is the station for almost all of West Penwith, and the amount of holiday accommodation has exploded in recent years with air bnb's, cottages, houses and flats in places like Sennen, St Just, Newlyn, Mousehole, Marazion etc, as well as 'boutique' hotels in Penzance itself and the more traditional offerings. It is certainly not a 'local town for local people' and hasn't been for years, hence our still having all the major bank and building society branches. It also caters for almost all people wishing to get to the Isles of Scilly, which can only be reached by public transport of course. Don't get fooled by its down-at-heel appearance near the station and the disproportionate number of drifters making their home here in the warmer and sunnier months!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd dispute almost every word of that. St Ives is a major day trip destination, many of those people arriving by train having come from Penzance. Penzance is the station for almost all of West Penwith, and the amount of holiday accommodation has exploded in recent years with air bnb's, cottages, houses and flats in places like Sennen, St Just, Newlyn, Mousehole, Marazion etc, as well as 'boutique' hotels in Penzance itself and the more traditional offerings. It is certainly not a 'local town for local people' and hasn't been for years, hence our still having all the major bank and building society branches. It also caters for almost all people wishing to get to the Isles of Scilly, which can only be reached by public transport of course. Don't get fooled by its down-at-heel appearance near the station and the disproportionate number of drifters making their home here in the warmer and sunnier months!

Either way, it's about as big/busy as Penrith (Penrith is slightly bigger, in fact, and in the form of the North Lakes has a similar tourist hinterland), and it would make as much sense to have a fast Paddington-Penzance as it would a fast Euston-Penrith.

Demand is, as most people accept, spread out along the line, particularly its western end, which is why a Southern Region style practice (fast to Plymouth then all or most stations) makes most sense and has been the pattern for years.

 

[Meerkat]

If you made it faster you would increase demand. What is the longest train that Paddington/Reading/Exeter/Plymouth could platform?

 

[Trainbike46]

If you made it faster you would increase demand. What is the longest train that Paddington/Reading/Exeter/Plymouth could platform?

It should fit 10 cars, as 2x5 is already used. Obviously a fixed 10-car would have more capacity than a 2x5, so would be an advantage.

Are there any trains to the southwest that consist of a single 5 (rather than a 9 or 2x5?), if so they'd be the obvious ones to extend

 

[occone]

I find the overall pace rather pedestrian - I kept expecting to hit 125mph especially on the long run between Taunton and Reading but we only ever seen to go at 90mph.

Its nice and leisurely sure, with nice views and comfortable enough, but it doesn't feel particularly fast.

 

[irish_rail]

I find the overall pace rather pedestrian - I kept expecting to hit 125mph especially on the long run between Taunton and Reading but we only ever seen to go at 90mph.

Its nice and leisurely sure, with nice views and comfortable enough, but it doesn't feel particularly fast.

Obviously either had a duff set or issues on route, as Taunton to Reading is mostly 100mph and has stretches of 110mph.

 

[hexagon789]

I find the overall pace rather pedestrian - I kept expecting to hit 125mph especially on the long run between Taunton and Reading but we only ever seen to go at 90mph.

Its nice and leisurely sure, with nice views and comfortable enough, but it doesn't feel particularly fast.

110 max on the Berks & Hants, 125 is only permitted from Reading into Paddington.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The disappointing thing is that in the 1980/1 timetable, for example, the up 'Golden Hind' managed 5 hours flat between Penzance and Paddington, including a rather pedestrian 3h 18m between Plymouth and Paddington because of calls at Newton Abbot, Exeter and Taunton. Since then we have had resignalling, electrification Newbury to Paddington, the Reading flyover / rebuild and fettling of the Berks and Hants for higher speeds. Yet seemingly today we are incapable of beating it?

In December (probably later) the missing section of the A30 dual carriageway in Cornwall will open between Chiverton and Carland Crosses, giving a continuous stretch between Exeter and Roseworthy Gardens near Hayle. If you live in Penzance you will be able to have a lie-in and drive to Tiverton Parkway and catch the same train that left Penzance somewhat earlier.

 

[stuu]

The disappointing thing is that in the 1980/1 timetable, for example, the up 'Golden Hind' managed 5 hours flat between Penzance and Paddington, including a rather pedestrian 3h 18m between Plymouth and Paddington because of calls at Newton Abbot, Exeter and Taunton. Since then we have had resignalling, electrification Newbury to Paddington, the Reading flyover / rebuild and fettling of the Berks and Hants for higher speeds. Yet seemingly today we are incapable of beating it?

There are a few more trains on the network these days

 

[hexagon789]

Yet seemingly today we are incapable of beating it?

There are a couple of trains each way taking less than 5 hours and with more stops.

 

[Lawrence18uk]

I wondered whether electrification - in the uphill direction - would be useful....

 

[Irascible]

The question should be "how do we grow the rail market in Devon" and that should involve faster journey times, more capacity, greater frequency and new passenger catchments.

That wasn't the question asked, and that'd be a complete thread hijack. The original question wasn't even specifically about Devon, it's just that Plymouth-Exeter is both slow & probably has a better BCR for journey time improvement than the entirety of Cornwall. Anyone want to ballpark the price of tunnels from Totnes to somewhere near Plymouth & to Newton Abbott, out of interest? we're not short of tunnel work to estimate from atm...

I'd be pretty annoyed if my connection after a longish journey at Reading was a stopper to yet another change of train, I think utility should win out there for the sake of encouraging people to make the journey in the first place. What's Westbury's traffic like these days, could one of them skip?

 

[AM9]

I wondered whether electrification - in the uphill direction - would be useful....

If you mean just electrifying the track in the direction of climbing the hills, then that would be virtually the same cost of electrifying both directions. Power consumption would also be higher because there would be no downhill dividend from regen.

 

[class26]

I find it very hard to believe that taking 5 minutes out of a minimum 3.5 hour train journey would have any measurable impact on demand.

But I would believe that making journeys to the second busiest station on GWR's network half an hour longer would adversely affect numbers.

BR always said that 1 minute off the time resulted in a 1% increase in revenue. i would have thought speeding the times up was worth it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

BR always said that 1 minute off the time resulted in a 1% increase in revenue. i would have thought speeding the times up was worth it.

I would be more than astonished if that was true in every case. Particularly given the revenue drop you would have from removing direct fast London services from several stations on the Cornish mainline.

It might be true of lines which in any significant sense only connect two or three main places, e.g. London to Manchester or Birmingham, but I'd be amazed if it applied to the Cornish mainline. Plus getting times below "headlines" e.g. London to Glasgow/Edinburgh under 4 hours, or London-Manchester under 2, is likely to have far more impact than getting 5h10 down to 5h09, say.

 

[YourMum666]

How about improving speeds between Taunton and Exeter?

 

[irish_rail]

How about improving speeds between Taunton and Exeter?

In the down direction 100mph can barely be achieved between Taunton and Tiverton, by time you get to 100 with an IET you are braking for Tiverton. From Tiverton to Exeter its pretty curvy, especially around Cullompton plus approaching Exeter. Id say very little scope for improved speeds without electrifying, even then I doubt you'd get much more than 100moh anyway due to the general curvature.

 

[The Ham]

Construction of a new HS line between Exeter and Plymouth, via Newton Abbott; much of it in tunnel. Speed and resilience, to both Plymouth and Cornwall.

Are you thinking a longer section than the proposed Dawlish Avoiding Line (DAL)?

Either way, the DAL or a longer HS line, you really need more services to make it worthwhile, there's no score for now trains from Paddington, so that makes it hard to deliver.

 

[DPWH2]

I think there is some potential for a Great Western High Speed Line. It's worth considering what it would be, if HS2 has a turnaround and becomes a roaring success. Not least because it shows how far down the shopping list a Dawlish Avoiding Line goes.

Phase 1 would be London-Bristol. Phase 1A of that would be a tunnel from Heathrow to a London Terminus. Paddington is full, and not so easy to expand, but I think there is scope for more platforms at Waterloo to the East of the existing station, to Bayliss Road. Phase 1B would then be Heathrow-Bristol.

Phase 2A would be a Second Severn Tunnel and bits in South Wales. Phase 2B would be to Bristol-Plymouth, including the DAL. It's a very long way down an expensive and very speculative list.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I do wonder though if you could take out the stops at St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro. St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard as these are also stopped at by the Penzance to Cardiff Central (2U20) service 30 minutes later.

What’s the point of running it beyond Plymouth at all then?? That only services Penzance customers solely. Truro is a ridiculous stop to omit, busiest in Cornwall by far - not just because of Falmouth connections in Summer, but actually mainly due to being the principal town in Cornwall. Everything should stop there (and currently does) and Bodmin Parkway gets very busy indeed also.

You could get away with only stopping London services at Par that connect with the Newquay, and those could in turn omit St Austell, and Camborne could be reduced to Regional services only - already several GW and XC skip it. A couple of peak trains could skip Redruth but I wouldn’t recommend many, and in summer St Erth for the St Ives Bay Line is rammed. I wouldn’t reduce Liskeard or Bodmin Parkway either, except on winter Sundays when Looe is barely running, and then you can skip the former then by all means.

1tp2h from London calling Liskeard, Bodmin Pkwy, Par, Truro, Redruth, St Erth, Penzance - connecting with the Newquay service

1tp2h from London calling Liskeard (not winter Sundays), Bodmin Pkwy, St Austell, Truro, St Erth, Penzance

and then the hourly Regional service calling Saltash, St Germans, Liskeard, Bodmin Pkwy, Lostwithiel, Par, St Austell, Truro, Redruth, Camborne, Hayle, St Erth, Penzance.

4tpd Plymouth, Devonport, St Budeaux Ferry Road, Saltash, St Germans, Menheniot, Liskeard peak shuttle will suffice for the awkward stations

 

[Basil Jet]

You could get away with only stopping London services at Par that connect with the Newquay,

If the Mid Cornwall Metro happens, wouldn't all London services connect with the Newquay?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If the Mid Cornwall Metro happens, wouldn't all London services connect with the Newquay?

Yes and in more places than one, so all the more reason why 1tp2h London is fine.

 

[yorksrob]

That wasn't the question asked, and that'd be a complete thread hijack. The original question wasn't even specifically about Devon, it's just that Plymouth-Exeter is both slow & probably has a better BCR for journey time improvement than the entirety of Cornwall. Anyone want to ballpark the price of tunnels from Totnes to somewhere near Plymouth & to Newton Abbott, out of interest? we're not short of tunnel work to estimate from atm...

I'd be pretty annoyed if my connection after a longish journey at Reading was a stopper to yet another change of train, I think utility should win out there for the sake of encouraging people to make the journey in the first place. What's Westbury's traffic like these days, could one of them skip?

The current service from Paddington isn't really a stopper until Plymouth anyway though. It just goes around the hills a bit through Devon.

 

[JonathanH]

I think there is some potential for a Great Western High Speed Line. It's worth considering what it would be, if HS2 has a turnaround and becomes a roaring success.

Even if there is, it is fairly unimaginable when it would ever be built. If HS2 is ever built in full that won't be finished until some time in the 2040s. HS2 links a much higher population than a Great Western High Speed Line would, yet the view appears to now be made that it is unaffordable, which doesn't help the case for other high speed lines. It certainly isn't a near term improvement.

 

[stuu]

BR always said that 1 minute off the time resulted in a 1% increase in revenue. i would have thought speeding the times up was worth it.

Speeding up journey times to stations without many passengers whilst dramatically slowing down journeys to much busier stations does not seem a sensible equation.

Even Tiverton Parkway is busier than every station in Cornwall except Truro

 

[class26]

Speeding up journey times to stations without many passengers whilst dramatically slowing down journeys to much busier stations does not seem a sensible equation.

Even Tiverton Parkway is busier than every station in Cornwall except Truro

I don`t think that is what BR had in mind. If you read the history of the ECML in late BR days they were always clipping a minute off here, 2 minutes there by track slewing etc

 

[WelshBluebird]

It is the attraction of an uninterrupted journey between London and Exeter that would be attractive to passengers, not any substantial reduction in journey times. If passengers were told that they could join at Paddington and have a non disrupted journey to Exeter that could be a major selling point, in much the same way as LNER to York, Lumo to Newcastle or Avanti to Warrington might be considered.

Is a train that takes essentially the same time but doesn't stop really that much of a pull for passengers? I can't imagine that myself tbh. I don't care how frequent the train stops - its the times and the connections to other services along with the price and how likely I am to get a seat or not that are the important things!

Psychologically, if you can get more sub 3 hour Plymouth to London trips you could really grow the business on the route

I keep seeing this mentioned, but is there actually any evidence that a 2h59m service would grow the business anymore than a 3h01m service?

 

[devon_belle]

Looking at each leg on 1A88, we have:

• Penzance to Plymouth (79 miles) = 120 mins, including 6 mins at Plymouth
• Plymouth to Exeter (52 miles) = 60 mins, including 3 mins at Exeter
• Exeter to London Paddington (173 miles) = 136 mins, including 4 mins at Reading

I think trying to squeeze extra minutes out of the Exeter-London leg doesn't make much sense, as it is already far quicker on average (76.5 mph vs 52 mph and 39.5 mph). I agree with those others that thing the Cornwall portion needs to be sped up, but I don't think removing stops is the right solution. Would infrastructure upgrades (electrification on grades, linespeed increases) even be able to shave off any time? Would the people of cornwall accept having to get on a local train to reach the London express that no longer stops at their station, which may well increase times and completely drive them away from rail for this jouney? Or would a more resilient, regular and commodious service attract greater numbers of people onto the service from presently-quiet Cornish stations?

Of course, if you make the service from Cornwall too attractive, how do you supply extra demand to Devonians and those thereafter who currently use it and may find their seat taken by someone eating their scones incorrectly )). It's up to GWR/NR to decide who takes priority, I suppose...

 

[RT4038]

Are you thinking a longer section than the proposed Dawlish Avoiding Line (DAL)?

Either way, the DAL or a longer HS line, you really need more services to make it worthwhile, there's no score for now trains from Paddington, so that makes it hard to deliver.

Yes - largely following the line of the A38 with a branch off near Newton Abbott for Torbay. Much in tunnel I would think, like HS2. Really make a difference.

 

[Bald Rick]

Anyone want to ballpark the price of tunnels from Totnes to somewhere near Plymouth & to Newton Abbott, out of interest?

Start at £250m/km.

BR always said that 1 minute off the time resulted in a 1% increase in revenue. i would have thought speeding the times up was worth it.

A lot has changed in the last 30 years, and the elasticity of demand relative to journey time is much better understood.

But even if the 1 minute = 1% revenue rule does apply … the total revenue of all passengers either starting or finishing (or both) any journey west of Newtown Abbott is somewhat less than £100m a year. And that includes a lot of journeys that don’t touch the main line.

Are you thinking a longer section than the proposed Dawlish Avoiding Line (DAL)?

There isn’t a proposed Dawlish Avoiding Line.