How could Lumo expand/develop/improve?

[dorsetdesiro]

I find the Rochdale proposal surprising, why not terminate in Manchester? They probably will quietly drop Rochdale when it is noted everyone mostly get off before it gets there?

Thought they'd be more interested in Euston to Glasgow vs AWC that Virgin Trains, if successfully relaunched, could beat them to it first.

In regards to a York stop, if they are "Ryanairail" then they could stop somewhere remote in the area - "York Thirsk" anyone? Ha ha.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find the Rochdale proposal surprising, why not terminate in Manchester?

Partly not to block platforms in Victoria (which is almost as bad as Castlefield despite not being spoken about as much), partly so it doesn't look as abstractive.

 

[najaB]

No, it’s just that the SO ESG ECML database hasn’t yet been completed. These timetables are also indicative (for the purposes of ORR evaluation) and will subject to change.

Ah, okay, that makes sense.

Thanks.

 

[jagardner1984]

Interesting the choice of Queen Street, and potentially more relevant onward options via Scotrail up the West Coast and elsewhere in the central belt.

Didn't the Queen Street rebuild originally allow for 6tph on the Falkirk High line, and thus there is potentially some reasonable capacity since that has never materialised, even for turning a long distance train ?

Rather an amusing take on the "is your service primarily abstractive" question in the application

"This service will compete, in a minor fashion, with Scotrail."

Given the stated aim elsewhere is to take on the Glasgow-London air market, it seems interesting they make no reference to either of the current London - Scotland operators, presumably some of whose business will undoubtedly be shifted to the Low cost competitor, however much they may wish to play down that impact, but to suggest the main impact will be on Scotrail is really rather laughable.

 

[Flying Claret]

Partly not to block platforms in Victoria (which is almost as bad as Castlefield despite not being spoken about as much), partly so it doesn't look as abstractive.

Out of interest, where would the unit go once it's emptied at Rochdale? Will it just turn round and head back south? Presume it will need cleaning etc....

 

[najaB]

Out of interest, where would the unit go once it's emptied at Rochdale? Will it just turn round and head back south? Presume it will need cleaning etc....

If they're truly following the low-cost airline model, they just need a siding somewhere and the driver and train manager can clean it themselves!

 

[Trainbike46]

Interesting the choice of Queen Street, and potentially more relevant onward options via Scotrail up the West Coast and elsewhere in the central belt.

Didn't the Queen Street rebuild originally allow for 6tph on the Falkirk High line, and thus there is potentially some reasonable capacity since that has never materialised, even for turning a long distance train ?

Rather an amusing take on the "is your service primarily abstractive" question in the application



Given the stated aim elsewhere is to take on the Glasgow-London air market, it seems interesting they make no reference to either of the current London - Scotland operators, presumably some of whose business will undoubtedly be shifted to the Low cost competitor, however much they may wish to play down that impact, but to suggest the main impact will be on Scotrail is really rather laughable

I'd expect the major market would be Glasgow-Newcastle traffic actually, connecting on both sides with local operators for other stations.

For London-Glasgow there will be a significant time penalty, but Glasgow-Newcastle it will likely be the quickest and most convenient route, especially now that LNER and XC have mostly abandoned it

Out of interest, where would the unit go once it's emptied at Rochdale? Will it just turn round and head back south? Presume it will need cleaning etc....

Potentially they could have cleaners board in Manchester, clean en-route to Rochdale and back to Manchester, where they disembark again...

 

[Blindtraveler]

That's certainly how I would do it as in service cleaning is not new anymore and I've even seen those operating on the likes of cross country. Wipe down tables and seat backs as well as litter pick under seats as long as no one sitting there or in the case of myself, I've offered to take a slow walk to the toilet and back while the cleaner cleans my area

 

[BogiePicker]

Moderator note: Split from

Lumo plans to carry additional 275,000 passengers between London and Newcastle

Lumo press release LUMO PLANS TO CARRY ADDITIONAL 275,000 PASSENGERS BETWEEN LONDON AND NEWCASTLE Extra service could also lead to new jobs for Newcastle-based train operator Published 19 Jan 2024 Here at Lumo we're exploring plans to operate an additional return journey every day between...

www.railforums.co.uk

Personally, I feel that Lumo should be concentrating on trying to obtain additional rolling stock, to either lengthen the existing sets or have some completely additional ones for strengthening purposes.

I don't imagine they get the volume of repeat customers that they might like, as once we've all experienced the Ryanair of railways with sardine class accommodation being the only type of available that most people decide it's not worth the effort.

And if they were to get additional carriages or further units how about some more luggage space, this is a problem. What would others change about the specification of the original fleet? The only redeeming feature for me are the seats

How do people find fully loaded IETs in general?

The Lumo IET is 2.74m wide.

Lumo's business model is of running high load factor trainsets.

The accepted maximum is 2.82. This is a 2cm increase per passenger. Is this adequate?

A 26m vehicle might struggle with this, even if heavily tapered at the ends, but a Eurostar-style train would not. Note the range of articulated modern EMUs, easier in this case because of a lower power requirement. I read that Stadler offered its 'SMILE' 250kph train to someone here.

Edit: I initially thought that an all-electric fleet would particularly favour the SMILE, then realised that Stadler offered a bimode version to Saudi Arabia on top of this.

Crosscountry has similarly high load factors and might also benefit.

Wonder if they also ran 1+2, and just marked up 33% to cover costs.

 

[YorkRailFan]

How do people find fully loaded IETs in general?

The Lumo IET is 2.74m wide.

Lumo's business model is of running high load factor trainsets.

The accepted maximum is 2.82. This is a 2cm increase per passenger. Is this adequate?

A 26m vehicle might struggle with this, even if heavily tapered at the ends, but a Eurostar-style train would not. Note the range of articulated modern EMUs, easier in this case because of a lower power requirement. I read that Stadler offered its 'SMILE' 250kph train to someone here.

Edit: I initially thought that an all-electric fleet would particularly favour the SMILE, then realised that Stadler offered a bimode version to Saudi Arabia.

Crosscountry has similarly high load factors and might also benefit.

Wonder if they also ran 1+2, and just marked up 33% to cover costs.

Better than a Voyager, perhaps because every carriage in a Voyager has a Wheelchair toilet compared to IETs having 1 in standard and 1 in First (in the case of LNER) meaning that in other carriages there's just the cubicle style toilet which gives more standing room.

 

[notadriver]

What if the additional capacity came in the form of older 100 mph emu sets such as class 365s or 333s obviously pathed to keep out of the way of 125 mph services as much as possible ?

 

[dk1]

What if the additional capacity came in the form of older 100 mph emu sets such as class 365s or 333s obviously pathed to keep out of the way of 125 mph services as much as possible ?

I don’t think the class 365 exists anymore. Are there any spare 333s?

It sounds like a nightmare to path a 100mph these days. The ECML is very busy indeed.

 

[Neptune]

What if the additional capacity came in the form of older 100 mph emu sets such as class 365s or 333s obviously pathed to keep out of the way of 125 mph services as much as possible ?

I don’t think the class 365 exists anymore. Are there any spare 333s?

No 333’s available for anyone to ‘borrow’. 365’s all scrapped except 3 preserved coaches.

 

[dk1]

No 333’s available for anyone to ‘borrow’. 365’s all scrapped except 3 preserved coaches.

Just what I thought.

 

[Trainbike46]

What if the additional capacity came in the form of older 100 mph emu sets such as class 365s or 333s obviously pathed to keep out of the way of 125 mph services as much as possible ?

impossible as stated above; in any case 110mph would be preferable (easier to path, faster) and more likely to be available (350s). Still unlikely

 

[notadriver]

What a great idea. An 8 car 350 formation able to run at 110 mph. GWR run 387s to Cardiff alongside IETs after all. The WCML mixes 110 mph units 350/397s with 125 mph pendolinos.

 

[Trainbike46]

What a great idea. An 8 car 350 formation able to run at 110 mph. GWR run 387s to Cardiff alongside IETs after all. The WCML mixes 110 mph units 350/397s with 125 mph pendolinos.

For clarity, I think it's a bad idea, and you'd still be very unlikely to get a london-Edinburgh 110mph path

 

[Neptune]

What a great idea.

It really is a terrible idea along a 393 mile mainly 2 track busy route.

An 8 car 350 formation able to run at 110 mph. GWR run 387s to Cardiff alongside IETs after all.

Timed and booked on a much shorter 144 mile route (just over a third of London - Edinburgh).

The WCML mixes 110 mph units 350/397s with 125 mph pendolinos.

Again timed and booked and neither does the full length of the route from London to Glasgow.

 

[ScotTrains]

I can see the Glasgow to Edinburgh services being very popular with people preferring lumo to scotrail especially since Scotrail removed the catering trolley.

The previous late morning XC Glasgow C to Edinburgh services were some of the busiest trains I have ever seen, with people being refused access at Motherwell due to overcrowding. I would say about half the passengers would disembark at Edinburgh so were clearly preferring the longer XC service to the shorter, more frequent Scotrail ones.

 

[tornado]

The timings of 42-48 mins from Queen St to Waverley don't seem particularly impressive considering they only stop at Falkirk High. Scot Rail services manage that already with several more stops.

 

[najaB]

The timings of 42-48 mins from Queen St to Waverley don't seem particularly impressive considering they only stop at Falkirk High. Scot Rail services manage that already with several more stops.

That does appear to include a dwell of 4.5 minutes at Falkirk High, and 4 minutes at Haymarket.

 

[frvic93]

It'll be unusual having trains that go to England from Glasgow Queen Street. When was the last time there was one of those?

 

[A S Leib]

It'll be unusual having trains that go to England from Glasgow Queen Street. When was the last time there was one of those?

Last night (the Sleeper), but I'm guessing you mean Queen Street High Level.

 

[najaB]

Last night (the Sleeper), but I'm guessing you mean Queen Street High Level.

If you really wanted to be pedantic and, around here, who doesn't?! - while the Sleeper stopped at Queen Street and then went forward to London, the stop is set-down only so isn't a "train [service] that goes to England from Queen Street".

 

[800001]

With the news that Arriva (Grand Central) having being bought from DB by a private company.

It got me thinking, maybe Lumo should attempt to buy Grand Central, as this would help them grow the business.

 

[takno]

With the news that Arriva (Grand Central) having being bought from DB by a private company.

It got me thinking, maybe Lumo should attempt to buy Grand Central, as this would help them grow the business.

There isn't any indication that Arriva's purchasers want to sell the business. In any case First through Lumo appear to be aiming to use their expertise in cheaply developing new OA operations. Buying a successful existing operator by contrast would be more capital-intensive in a way they can't afford, and would generate at best dull-but-predictable returns.

That's assuming of course that the competition authority chose to allow it.

 

[stevieinselby]

The timings of 42-48 mins from Queen St to Waverley don't seem particularly impressive considering they only stop at Falkirk High. Scot Rail services manage that already with several more stops.

And therein lies the problem. None of the stations on the line have passing loops, so a fast train will just catch up a stopping train and then have to follow it all the way, which makes it difficult to cut journey times. I don't know whether paths are still reserved for a 15 minute service on the ScotRail express but if so then it doesn't leave a whole lot of scope for faster running in between those paths.

 

[najaB]

And therein lies the problem. None of the stations on the line have passing loops, so a fast train will just catch up a stopping train and then have to follow it all the way, which makes it difficult to cut journey times. I don't know whether paths are still reserved for a 15 minute service on the ScotRail express but if so then it doesn't leave a whole lot of scope for faster running in between those paths.

Hence the 8.5 minutes of dwell time noted above.

 

[waverley47]

And therein lies the problem. None of the stations on the line have passing loops, so a fast train will just catch up a stopping train and then have to follow it all the way, which makes it difficult to cut journey times. I don't know whether paths are still reserved for a 15 minute service on the ScotRail express but if so then it doesn't leave a whole lot of scope for faster running in between those paths.

The paths do currently exist throughout the day given the expected return of these paths at some point in the future

 

[takno]

Having Lumo bid for those theoretical non-existent paths would certainly put paid to any remaining hopes of a Winchburgh station