How fast could the Calder Valley get?

[30907]

I think with a bit of tweaking they could run a clock-face half-hourly pattern, with a mix of semi-fasts and stoppers to serve all markets:

I think that's over-generous; I'd go for something more modest.

• 2ph all-stop Manchester to Rochdale Todmorden
  
  
• 2ph Manchester to Bradford, calling Rochdale, Tod, Hebden and Halifax only (this would be a definite improvement - starting back at Chester/Airport?)
  
  
• 1ph semi-fast to Todmorden, then all stops to Blackburn Leeds via Bradford
• 1ph semi-fast to Todmorden, then all stops to Sowerby, continuing to Leeds via Dewsbury
  
  
• 1ph semi-fast Blackpool to York
• 1ph semi-fast Preston to Hull, both calling at Sowerby Br and Mytholmroyd (trade-off the slower journey against the doubled frequency)
• 1ph all-stop Huddersfield to Leeds via Bradford (Hudds to Halifax is just too slow to generate the traffic for 2tph)
• 2ph all-stop Bradford to Leeds, potentially continuing on to York/Selby

 

[willgreen]

This does seem to have the hallmarks of being yet another "Solution in search of a problem". At least 'speculative discussion' is the best place for this.

More that I was travelling on the Calder Valley yesterday and was struck once again by how slow bits of it are.. but yes totally speculative.

I think that's over-generous; I'd go for something more modest.

• 2ph all-stop Manchester to Rochdale Todmorden
  
  
• 2ph Manchester to Bradford, calling Rochdale, Tod, Hebden and Halifax only (this would be a definite improvement - starting back at Chester/Airport?)
  
  
• 1ph semi-fast to Todmorden, then all stops to Blackburn Leeds via Bradford
• 1ph semi-fast to Todmorden, then all stops to Sowerby, continuing to Leeds via Dewsbury
  
  
• 1ph semi-fast Blackpool to York
• 1ph semi-fast Preston to Hull, both calling at Sowerby Br and Mytholmroyd (trade-off the slower journey against the doubled frequency)
• 1ph all-stop Huddersfield to Leeds via Bradford (Hudds to Halifax is just too slow to generate the traffic for 2tph)
• 2ph all-stop Bradford to Leeds, potentially continuing on to York/Selby

So only 1tph from Leeds beyond Halifax?

 

[Manutd1999]

• 1ph semi-fast to Todmorden, then all stops to Blackburn Leeds via Bradford

This is similar to what happens now. The problem is there is no service from Littleborough/Walsden to Halifax and Bradford, which is why I proposed to send both stoppers to Leeds (1x via Bradford, 1x via Dewsbury)

• 1ph semi-fast Preston to Hull, both calling at Sowerby Br and Mytholmroyd (trade-off the slower journey against the doubled frequency)

Calling at Sowerby yes, but Mytholmroyd is probably too small to justify another service. It would have 2ph under my plan to send both stoppers to Leeds.

 

[cle]

• 2ph all-stop Bradford to Leeds, potentially continuing on to York/Selby

shouldn't these just extend from your 2tph Bradford?

Halifax, Hebden, Rochdale - those folks overwhelmingly needs Leeds connections over Bradford ones.

 

[YorksLad12]

The Pudsey Greenside loop, without the Low Moor section, creates a passing place for fast and slow trains, either at Greenside station itself, which unlike New Pudsey is well sited within walking distance of most housing and the town centre, but after using the station, New Pudsey should absolutely close with the line only used by the fast EMUs from Leeds to Bradford and all services from Bramley running via Greenside. What is the further use for the car park without the station, for mass transit?

Use of the car park as a Masst Transit Park and Ride site & station instead of a heavy rail one...?

I knew someone would bring up the Greenside Loop. I think parts of it have been filled in, parts have been built upon, and it doesn't connect with the 'right' places today. Public transport should be accessible (so not in a cutting), and connect people and places. As other forumites will quickly say, having had a heavy rail line in the past doesn't mean you should have one now.

 

[507020]

This is similar to what happens now. The problem is there is no service from Littleborough/Walsden to Halifax and Bradford, which is why I proposed to send both stoppers to Leeds (1x via Bradford, 1x via Dewsbury)

It isn’t that difficult to change at Todmorden or Hebden Bridge. I tend to do that anyway to avoid changing at Manchester Victoria.

Use of the car park as a Masst Transit Park and Ride site & station instead of a heavy rail one...?

I knew someone would bring up the Greenside Loop. I think parts of it have been filled in, parts have been built upon, and it doesn't connect with the 'right' places today. Public transport should be accessible (so not in a cutting), and connect people and places. As other forumites will quickly say, having had a heavy rail line in the past doesn't mean you should have one now.

I’m aware that merely the past existence of a railway doesn’t automatically qualify it for reopening, but the situation where Pudsey Greenside has been replaced with New Pudsey is the most egregious example I have ever seen.

Pudsey Greenside was centrally located within walking distance of most of the town and was supplemented by the equally well sited Lowtown.

New Pudsey simply serves a car park on a dual carriageway, a 40+ minute walk away from most housing for able bodied people and this is often the fastest way to get there - there are no through buses from the station and the local roads are unsuitable for everyone to drive to the station without causing gridlock traffic.

With demand now for non-stop services from Leeds to Bradford included in the IRP, with the potential to reduce calls at New Pudsey anyway, the line should be diverted back through the populated area of Pudsey, shouldn’t it?

 

[Manutd1999]

• 2ph all-stop Bradford to Leeds, potentially continuing on to York/Selby

shouldn't these just extend from your 2tph Bradford?

Halifax, Hebden, Rochdale - those folks overwhelmingly needs Leeds connections over Bradford ones.

In my original suggestion Halifax would still get 4ph to Leeds, Rochdale 2ph.

The 'fast' trains to Bradford could continue to Leeds, but I think there are long-term benefits of splitting this service at Bradford. Post electrification of the Bradford to Leeds section, the stopper could then be flighted and the faster trains from Blackpool and Preston could skip Pudsey/Bramley.

You would end up with something like this between Halifax and Leeds:

2ph (Blackpool/Preston) - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds - (continuing to Preston/York)
1ph (Huddersfield) - Halifax - Low Moor - Bradford - Pudsey - Bramley - Leeds
1ph (Victoria) - Halifax - Low Moor - Bradford - Pudsey - Bramley - Leeds
2ph Bradford - Pudsey - Bramley - Leeds - (maybe continuing to York)

 

[WAO]

The Calder Valley (and Rochdale Canal) route suffered from Beeching in being downgraded in favour of the assessed primary route via Diggle, between Manchester and Leeds. This went too far, as did much outside of the South East. Major population centres can merit multiple routes between them because of intermediate traffic, like Glasgow and Edinburgh (and Liverpool and Manchester).

The L&Y route, described in Nock's "Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway" is a much better route across the Pennines, mostly with gentle gradients of c1:300 (and at one time water troughs!), except for a modest climb to Castleton and descent from Summit Tunnel. It is an early George Stevenson line with gentle curves so should be capable of upgrading to 100/125mph. However it is only two track and must provide for the sizable settlements spaced along the route. Faster trains would need to be able to overtake. Rochdale and Halifax would have helped but they have been cut back savagely in a way that BR and DfT would never have dared, South of Watford.

While I would not suggest this as an alternative to the TP upgrade, surely the aim should be to get the best out of what this line can offer, particularly for Bradford's sake.

The detailed service other posters are advocating would be thus enabled.

WAO

 

[YorksLad12]

Pudsey Greenside was centrally located within walking distance of most of the town and was supplemented by the equally well sited Lowtown.

New Pudsey simply serves a car park on a dual carriageway, a 40+ minute walk away from most housing for able bodied people and this is often the fastest way to get there - there are no through buses from the station and the local roads are unsuitable for everyone to drive to the station without causing gridlock traffic.

With demand now for non-stop services from Leeds to Bradford included in the IRP, with the potential to reduce calls at New Pudsey anyway, the line should be diverted back through the populated area of Pudsey, shouldn’t it?

New Pudsey was designed as a parkway / Park & Ride station. You'd have to replace that functionality if you use the Pudsey Loop - which, as I said, has been partly built over and filled in anyway.

I'm willing to bet as well that New Pudsey sees more passengers daily than Greenside and Lowtown combined ever did. That's why I think Mass Transit on a route near by is a better solution than attempting to reopen the former heavy rail route or reuse the alignment.

 

[Bantamzen]

New Pudsey was designed as a parkway / Park & Ride station. You'd have to replace that functionality if you use the Pudsey Loop - which, as I said, has been partly built over and filled in anyway.

I'm willing to bet as well that New Pudsey sees more passengers daily than Greenside and Lowtown combined ever did. That's why I think Mass Transit on a route near by is a better solution than attempting to reopen the former heavy rail route or reuse the alignment.

I think the ideas of a Bradford avoiding route, be it via Bowling or via Pudsey Greenside firmly belong in the "why would you even" category. Why would NR spend a considerable amount of money re-instating one or the other to avoid the biggest destination between Leeds and Manchester on the Calder Valley route? As you note the Greenside route has a considerable amount of development over some of it's former alignment, and even the route through East Bowling does to an extent. There already is a different route out of the Calder Valley, albeit with the not inconsiderable challenge of then having to path along the North TP route, so a second one is just not needed.

Mass transit may eventually be the solution for Pudsey, but even that will probably have to wait until long after Leeds & Bradford have been directly joined by one, which isn't likely to be for at least another decade, if at all.

 

[Halifaxlad]

With demand now for non-stop services from Leeds to Bradford included in the IRP, with the potential to reduce calls at New Pudsey anyway, the line should be diverted back through the populated area of Pudsey, shouldn’t it?

Alternatively you could have a tram/tram train since the line to just West of Bramley was 4 tracks potentially being wholy segregated from the existing line.

 

[willgreen]

I think the ideas of a Bradford avoiding route, be it via Bowling or via Pudsey Greenside firmly belong in the "why would you even" category.

Because Bowling would save ten minutes - with that and other linespeed improvements you could get a Leeds-Manchester service in under an hour, not too dissimilar to via Huddersfield. I'm not suggesting we do it but if the equation is 'getting people from Leeds to Manchester' then whether it goes via the Calder Valley or via Huddersfield is essentially moot, and if the equation is 'getting people from Leeds to Manchester as quickly as possible' then Bradford does not feature. Of course there are other equations involving demand, politics, operability, cost etc. but the thread is framed in terms of speed.

 

[JonathanH]

Because Bowling would save ten minutes - with that and other linespeed improvements you could get a Leeds-Manchester service in under an hour, not too dissimilar to via Huddersfield. I'm not suggesting we do it but if the equation is 'getting people from Leeds to Manchester' then whether it goes via the Calder Valley or via Huddersfield is essentially moot, and if the equation is 'getting people from Leeds to Manchester as quickly as possible' then Bradford does not feature. Of course there are other equations involving demand, politics, operability, cost etc. but the thread is framed in terms of speed.

It isn't moot at all because essentially if you are going to spend money to build a line via Bowling, that money could be spent on the Dewsbury route instead, which with some element of four tracking will enable faster journeys between Leeds and Manchester.

 

[willgreen]

It isn't moot at all because essentially if you are going to spend money to build a line via Bowling, that money could be spent in the Dewsbury route instead, which with some element of four tracking will enable faster journeys between Leeds and Manchester.

I don't think four-tracking will by itself provide a faster route - there is some four-tracking being provided already from Huddersfield, and four-tracking itself is pretty hugely expensive and disruptive - I can't imagine a Bowling diversion costing anywhere near (it's about a mile long, junction at each end plus disruption, maybe £40mil?)

 

[Gaz55]

Increasing trains through Mytholmroyd to 2ph would be helpful. The York to Blackpool North is very busy as the only service through there on a Sunday, I dread to think what it will be like in the summer.

 

[30907]

Increasing trains through Mytholmroyd to 2ph would be helpful. The York to Blackpool North is very busy as the only service through there on a Sunday, I dread to think what it will be like in the summer.

There are 2tph already, surely? One via Bradford, one via Dewsbury.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It isn't moot at all because essentially if you are going to spend money to build a line via Bowling, that money could be spent on the Dewsbury route instead, which with some element of four tracking will enable faster journeys between Leeds and Manchester.

The amount it would cost to four-track between Leeds and Ravensthorpe would make Bradford Crossrail look cheap by comparison. There's Morley tunnel and quite a few two-track viaducts you'd need to widen or rebuild.

I don't think the Bowling curve is worth reopening though- the reversal at Interchange isn't the problem that some make it out to be, and you'd need to save way more than ten minutes to justify skipping a major traffic source.

 

[JonathanH]

The amount it would cost to four-track between Leeds and Ravensthorpe would make Bradford Crossrail look cheap by comparison. There's Morley tunnel and quite a few two-track viaducts you'd need to widen or rebuild.

Yes, I was in no way implying that the line between Ravensthorpe and Leeds should be four-tracked, more trying to point out that money is already being spent to speed up the Dewsbury route, such that it would still be quicker than going via Bowling.

 

[Gaz55]

There are 2tph already, surely? One via Bradford, one via Dewsbury.

There are 2tph Monday to Saturday. There is only 1tph on Sundays, York to Blackpool North.

 

[Bantamzen]

Because Bowling would save ten minutes - with that and other linespeed improvements you could get a Leeds-Manchester service in under an hour, not too dissimilar to via Huddersfield. I'm not suggesting we do it but if the equation is 'getting people from Leeds to Manchester' then whether it goes via the Calder Valley or via Huddersfield is essentially moot, and if the equation is 'getting people from Leeds to Manchester as quickly as possible' then Bradford does not feature. Of course there are other equations involving demand, politics, operability, cost etc. but the thread is framed in terms of speed.

You could probably save more time by using the existing route via Brighouse and running a semi-fast without having to spend a single penny on infrastructure. But the question would be why would you? Its still going to be faster to travel between Leeds and Manchester via the North TP route. There would be practically no benefit whatsoever to reintroduce the Bowling curve just to avoid one of the biggest destinations on the Calder Valley route. Please file under "Solution looking for a problem".

 

[willgreen]

You could probably save more time by using the existing route via Brighouse and running a semi-fast without having to spend a single penny on infrastructure.

Could that be pathed via Dewsbury without infrastructure spending?

 

[Bantamzen]

Could that be pathed via Dewsbury without infrastructure spending?

Well there is already the Leeds - Wigan service that runs via Brighouse and Manchester Victoria, so yes in theory it would be possible to turn that path into a semi-fast. However there really isn't a very good case for it at all.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well there is already the Leeds - Wigan service that runs via Brighouse and Manchester Victoria, so yes in theory it would be possible to turn that path into a semi-fast. However there really isn't a very good case for it at all.

Doing so would deprive Mirfield and Batley (and Morley) of their second train per hour, which wouldn't go down too well with West Yorkshire's Metro Mayor...

Back onto the topic of speeding up the Calder Valley, what's the realistically quickest turnaround you could achieve at Bradford Interchange? With some Mersey Railway-style stepping back of crews you could probably be in (and ready to depart) within 2-3 minutes.

 

[Bantamzen]

Doing so would deprive Mirfield and Batley (and Morley) of their second train per hour, which wouldn't go down too well with West Yorkshire's Metro Mayor...

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way proposing this. I was just making the point that if there were a desire for a Bradford avoiding faster service it would be far easier, and way cheaper to run it via Brighouse than spend tens of millions re-opening the Bowling curve.

Back onto the topic of speeding up the Calder Valley, what's the realistically quickest turnaround you could achieve at Bradford Interchange? With some Mersey Railway-style stepping back of crews you could probably be in (and ready to depart) within 2-3 minutes.

Many services have a 2 minute turnaround, and providing there isn't a conflicting movement this is usually achievable. So an avoiding line through Bowling would save barely a few minutes at best, miss out on the biggest intermediate area on the line & cost an eye-watering amount to do so.

 

[willgreen]

Many services have a 2 minute turnaround, and providing there isn't a conflicting movement this is usually achievable. So an avoiding line through Bowling would save barely a few minutes at best, miss out on the biggest intermediate area on the line & cost an eye-watering amount to do so.

The thing is the painfully slow curve round to BDI and the painfully slow station throat. The latter could probably be remodelled to speed things up but the whole process of stopping at Interchange takes probably ten minutes. Even if Bradford is the biggest intermediate market.

 

[D6130]

The thing is the painfully slow curve round to BDI and the painfully slow station throat. The latter could probably be remodelled to speed things up but the whole process of stopping at Interchange takes probably ten minutes. Even if Bradford is the biggest intermediate market.

You can't do much about the St Dunstan's curve on the Leeds line....but the station throat was remodelled a few years ago to allow for (slightly) faster arrivals and departures in the Halifax direction, plus an additional arrival line giving greater flexibility for parallel moves.

 

[xotGD]

One of the primary functions of the Calder Valley route is to transport passengers between Bradford and Manchester. Anything that interferes with that is a bad idea.

Trains not actually stopping at Bradford is therefore an extremely bad idea.

Speed up the trains yes, but not if this inconveniences a significant chunk of the passengers.

 

[willgreen]

One of the primary functions of the Calder Valley route is to transport passengers between Bradford and Manchester. Anything that interferes with that is a bad idea.

Trains not actually stopping at Bradford is therefore an extremely bad idea.

Speed up the trains yes, but not if this inconveniences a significant chunk of the passengers.

What if any Leeds-Manchester services were additional to the current offering? I'm not suggesting cutting services to Bradford

You can't do much about the St Dunstan's curve on the Leeds line....but the station throat was remodelled a few years ago to allow for (slightly) faster arrivals and departures in the Halifax direction, plus an additional arrival line giving greater flexibility for parallel moves.

Yes, it went in around the same time as Low Moor didn't it? It's still not exactly quick to traverse though

 

[JonathanH]

What if any Leeds-Manchester services were additional to the current offering? I'm not suggesting cutting services to Bradford

That isn't going to justify the cost of the curve. At a rational level, no one would use the Calder Valley route to travel throughout from Leeds to Manchester. The only reason people do so at the moment is for a slightly cheaper fare. Offering cheaper fares doesn't justify spending money on infrastructure.

 

[Bantamzen]

That isn't going to justify the cost of the curve. At a rational level, no one would use the Calder Valley route to travel throughout from Leeds to Manchester. The only reason people do so at the moment is for a slightly cheaper fare. Offering cheaper fares doesn't justify spending money on infrastructure.

To be fair currently another reason to use Northern between Leeds and Manchester are actually running and fairly reliable...

But seriously there is more chance of Colne to Skipton reopening than the Bowling curve reopening to shave a few minutes off the Calder Valley services.