How good could the London to Dublin connection be?

[greg321]

London to Dublin by train doesn't really compete with going by plane on time. There are very few direct trains to Holyhead and they don't seem to match up with the ferries. How good could it be? The only direct train still stops a lot in Wales (below) and takes 3hrs 45m. Was there a direct fast train in the past that stopped less? How fast did it go? How fast would the lines allow?

London Euston 09:02
Stafford 10:24
Crewe 10:45
Chester 11:13
Prestatyn 11:38
Rhyl 11:44
Colwyn Bay 11:55
Llandudno Junction 12:03
Bangor (Gwynedd) 12:20
Holyhead 12:47

Then how much time do you need to change onto the ferry? The fastest ferry crossings takes 2hrs 15m on the Dublin Swift.

 

[irish_rail]

London to Dublin by train doesn't really compete with going by plane on time. There are very few direct trains to Holyhead and they don't seem to match up with the ferries. How good could it be? The only direct train still stops a lot in Wales (below) and takes 3hrs 45m. Was there a direct fast train in the past that stopped less? How fast did it go? How fast would the lines allow?

London Euston 09:02
Stafford 10:24
Crewe 10:45
Chester 11:13
Prestatyn 11:38
Rhyl 11:44
Colwyn Bay 11:55
Llandudno Junction 12:03
Bangor (Gwynedd) 12:20
Holyhead 12:47

Then how much time do you need to change onto the ferry? The fastest ferry crossings takes 2hrs 15m on the Dublin Swift.

The connections off the service you list onto the ferry are fine. Gets you into Dublin for tea time. I don't think people choose the ferry over the plane for speed, and nor will they. They choose the ferry for a variety of reasons, including fear of flying, having lots of kids, enjoyment of the ferry experience, it can be much cheaper, and its more environmentally friendly.

 

[PsychoMouse]

it can be much cheaper

I'd be absolutely shocked if a train ferry combo from London is cheaper than flying. Looking now for in 2 weeks time you can get a return to Dublin for £30 on Ryanair

 

[JonathanH]

I'd be absolutely shocked if a train ferry combo from London is cheaper than flying. Looking now for in 2 weeks time you can get a return to Dublin for £30 on Ryanair

The cost of getting to the airport needs to be taken into account and any extra payments for luggage, but still probably cheaper all told.

 

[The Planner]

I'd be absolutely shocked if a train ferry combo from London is cheaper than flying. Looking now for in 2 weeks time you can get a return to Dublin for £30 on Ryanair

How much extra for some decent baggage allowance and the scam of being able to sit together? Bet its 3 or 4x the price.

 

[PsychoMouse]

The cost of getting to the airport needs to be taken into account and any extra payments for luggage, but still probably cheaper all told.

This is true but people would still need to pay to get to Euston too!

How much extra for some decent baggage allowance and the scam of being able to sit together? Bet its 3 or 4x the price.

'Scam' Lol.

An extra £20 if you want a large cabin bag and a selected seat or £30 if you need a completely unnecessary checked suitcase. So £70 return for a 40 minute flight rather than an 8 hour train/ferry (if they're not on strike) for £100+

Tough choice.

 

[Metro95]

London to Dublin by train also doesn't really compete with going by plane on convenience.

 

[irish_rail]

This is true but people would still need to pay to get to Euston too!



'Scam' Lol.

An extra £20 if you want a large cabin bag and a selected seat or £30 if you need a completely unnecessary checked suitcase. So £70 return for a 40 minute flight rather than an 8 hour train/ferry (if they're not on strike) for £100+

Tough choice.

Well thankfully not everyone thinks like that. Some people care about the planet. Some people don't enjoy the awful environment of the airport and the budget airliner and don't like the risk of weather/ strikes / ATC being shut , risk on airlines. For most people the day travelling will be much of the day whether they go by plane or not. So why not travel with a little extra comfort?

 

[Trainbike46]

I'd be absolutely shocked if a train ferry combo from London is cheaper than flying. Looking now for in 2 weeks time you can get a return to Dublin for £30 on Ryanair

From brfares:

London Euston to Dublin via Holyhead Stena Adult £54.90 child £27.45, bookable until 18:00 the day before travel. (£6/£3 extra if booked later)
London Euston to Dublin via Holyhead Irish Ferries Adult £48.80 child £24.40 , bookable until 18:00 the day before travel. (£6.10/£3.05 extra if booked later)
London Euston to Dublin via Holyhead IF SWIFT Adult £54.90 child £27.45, bookable until 18:00 the day before travel. (£6/£3 extra if booked later)

And remember, these can be discounted with railcards

So absolutely can be cheaper, especially for short-notice travel, or if you have a lot of luggage

This is true but people would still need to pay to get to Euston too!



'Scam' Lol.

An extra £20 if you want a large cabin bag and a selected seat or £30 if you need a completely unnecessary checked suitcase. So £70 return for a 40 minute flight rather than an 8 hour train/ferry (if they're not on strike) for £100+

Tough choice.

Firstly, these tickets are available for very similar prices from all uk railway stations, so unlikely to have massive costs in getting to a train station

Obviously, if travel time is your most important factor, flying wins. There is however other factors where the ferry wins, as Irish_Rail points out

Depending on people's reason for travel, luggage needs vary, so calling a checked bag "totally unnecessary" is a bit over the top

 

[Merioneth]

From brfares:

London Euston to Dublin via Holyhead Stena Adult £54.90 child £27.45, bookable until 18:00 the day before travel. (£6/£3 extra if booked later)
London Euston to Dublin via Holyhead Irish Ferries Adult £48.80 child £24.40 , bookable until 18:00 the day before travel. (£6.10/£3.05 extra if booked later)
London Euston to Dublin via Holyhead IF SWIFT Adult £54.90 child £27.45, bookable until 18:00 the day before travel. (£6/£3 extra if booked later)

And remember, these can be discounted with railcards

So absolutely can be cheaper, especially for short-notice travel, or if you have a lot of luggage


Firstly, these tickets are available for very similar prices from all uk railway stations, so unlikely to have massive costs in getting to a train station

Obviously, if travel time is your most important factor, flying wins. There is however other factors where the ferry wins, as Irish_Rail points out

Depending on people's reason for travel, luggage needs vary, so calling a checked bag "totally unnecessary" is a bit over the top

Interesting, but I cannot get your price, and no fares are shown for a railcard. What code do you use for Dublin?

 

[Magdalia]

Was there a direct fast train in the past that stopped less?

Yes. In the days before Ryanair there were Euston-Holyhead boat trains with few stops. But they took more than 4 hours because the WCML was not as fast then and the train had to change locos at Crewe.

 

[NLC1072]

I'd be absolutely shocked if a train ferry combo from London is cheaper than flying. Looking now for in 2 weeks time you can get a return to Dublin for £30 on Ryanair

Try booking for tomorrow, the rail fare doesn't change, the airline fares do! I'm currently typing this from the train doing the London to Rosslare journey.

 

[Falcon1200]

Some people care about the planet.

Is the rail/ship journey from London to Dublin actually much more environmentally-friendly than flying, given that (at present) the direct trains are diesel throughout between Euston and Holyhead, and the ships are also (I presume) diesel-powered?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the rail/ship journey from London to Dublin actually much more environmentally-friendly than flying, given that (at present) the direct trains are diesel throughout between Euston and Holyhead, and the ships are also (I presume) diesel-powered?

Voyagers in terms of CO2/seat aren't hugely better than flying if I recall. The ship is harder to judge - yes, ships are notoriously mucky, but foot passengers are incidental in their effect on CO2 emissions of a ship (an extra 100kg or so is incidental compared to many hundreds of tonnes of the ship and vehicles on it) and the ship's going to run anyway for cars and freight.

Of course the 805s will improve things a lot.

 

[NLC1072]

Voyagers in terms of CO2/seat aren't hugely better than flying if I recall. The ship is harder to judge - yes, ships are notoriously mucky, but foot passengers are incidental in their effect on CO2 emissions of a ship (an extra 100kg or so is incidental compared to many hundreds of tonnes of the ship and vehicles on it) and the ship's going to run anyway for cars and freight.

Of course the 805s will improve things a lot.

Also they voyager runs anyway, for people using intermediate stops and picks up along the way to Holyhead, for those that don't live near an airport and the sail and rail is then genuinely the quickest and cheapest way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also they voyager runs anyway, for people using intermediate stops and picks up along the way to Holyhead, for those that don't live near an airport and the sail and rail is then genuinely the quickest and cheapest way.

RailSail is cheap, but a taxi to the nearest airport (even if a fair way away) is almost certain to result in a quicker journey, even if you happen to live in North Wales and the taxi would be to Liverpool airport!

 

[NLC1072]

RailSail is cheap, but a taxi to the nearest airport (even if a fair way away) is almost certain to result in a quicker journey, even if you happen to live in North Wales and the taxi would be to Liverpool airport!

An hour in a taxi let's say, two hours at the airport and then 45 minutes on the plane, then the transfer from Dublin airport to Dublin is another hour of messing around... I'd say from north wales the ferry is faster! I do all the sail rails journiee quite often and fly when convenient and if say I split it about 50/50

 

[Trainbike46]

Interesting, but I cannot get your price, and no fares are shown for a railcard. What code do you use for Dublin?

For Stena: https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=EUS&dest=DPS&period=20230903
For Irish Ferries:https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=EUS&dest=DFP&period=20230903

Turns out I mixed up my sailrail tickets and this route doesn't offer railcard discounts, whereas the route to belfast via cairnryan does

 

[stuu]

Just checked. A single from my house to Dublin is £46. A single to Bangor is £186!

I shall bear this in mind if I never need to buy a train ticket to anywhere north of Birmingham

 

[fishwomp]

8h23 is the quickest service currently, to Dublin Ferryport (DFP) but you can get 7h07 on the return as the connection from ferry is better.

Journey time, even if you lived at Euston and wanted to go to Dublin docks, it would still be slightly quicker by plane and public transport..

It competes on journey time (and price) if you live nearer north Wales than to Manchester/Birmingham or Liverpool airports - and the combined train/ferry is so cheap compared to travel to airport and then the flight hidden costs.

There's been a sad gradual worsening of the rail experience - Dun Laoghaire route closed, with its direct DART connection; the Stranraer / Cairnryan swap; the move of Rosslare Harbour station to further from the ship; Dublin port, say no more. Holyhead and Fishguard are still good on UK side though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's been a sad gradual worsening of the rail experience - Dun Laoghaire route closed, with its direct DART connection; the Stranraer / Cairnryan swap; the move of Rosslare Harbour station to further from the ship; Dublin port, say no more. Holyhead and Fishguard are still good on UK side though.

That's just in line with people wanting to fly, though. If that was to change, e.g. for environmental reasons, it could be made friendlier.

Stranraer is a bit moot, as with enough demand it'd not be hard to do a connecting coach from Girvan, indeed one could argue that closing the railway south of Girvan, extending the wires to there, and providing a higher frequency coach connection from Girvan to Stranraer via Cairnryan as a "permanent RRB" with through ticketing and rail style rights like Delay Repay would be better than what's there now.

 

[Trainbike46]

That's just in line with people wanting to fly, though. If that was to change, e.g. for environmental reasons, it could be made friendlier.

Stranraer is a bit moot, as with enough demand it'd not be hard to do a connecting coach from Girvan, indeed one could argue that closing the railway south of Girvan, extending the wires to there, and providing a higher frequency coach connection from Girvan to Stranraer via Cairnryan as a "permanent RRB" with through ticketing and rail style rights like Delay Repay would be better than what's there now.

The bus currently goes from Ayr as Girvan has such an infrequent train service, but it is a scotrail branded permanent rail replacement bus. The main way I'd improve it would be to run it three times a day in each direction, to connect to the three most reasonable ferry departures/arrivals. I also think people should be made more aware of it existing, and steps should be taken to avoid them becoming non-bookable due to things like avanti not releasing reservations (though fortunately that seems to have gotten better)

I think there have been proposals to extend electrification to Girvan and increase services to there as part of ScotGov decarbonisation plans, if/when that happens it makes sense to move the station where the bus replacement connects into the train at Girvan.

The move stranraer to Cairnryan is a bit unfortunate from a railway connection point of view, but does genuinely make sense for the ferry and travel time did decrease even for railway passengers. The issue is that the long-term security of the bus staying around is lower, to so far it has stuck around

 

[dk1]

I use it every few years as don’t fly. Also very cheap for me as being ex-BR the train is free and only pay port tax for the Irish Sea crossing.

 

[Merioneth]

For Stena: https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=EUS&dest=DPS&period=20230903
For Irish Ferries:https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=EUS&dest=DFP&period=20230903

Turns out I mixed up my sailrail tickets and this route doesn't offer railcard discounts, whereas the route to belfast via cairnryan does

Thank you

 

[MattRat]

How does London to Dublin via Holyhead compare to London to Dublin via Liverpool? Since the train journey is faster via Liverpool, would it make up for the longer ferry route?

 

[RailWonderer]

British Airways fly at all times of day at decent prices and no Ryanair restrictions and hidden fees. The trains cannot compete nor do they try to.

 

[43096]

Well thankfully not everyone thinks like that. Some people care about the planet. Some people don't enjoy the awful environment of the airport and the budget airliner and don't like the risk of weather/ strikes / ATC being shut , risk on airlines. For most people the day travelling will be much of the day whether they go by plane or not. So why not travel with a little extra comfort?

I don’t like airports and all the security theatre that goes with them. But the budget airline will have more comfortable seats than the train.

I cannot believe a member of railway staff has the brass neck to talk about strikes when flying by air! Far more risk with the *^%#show that is the British rail system, including weather related disruption.

 

[irish_rail]

How does London to Dublin via Holyhead compare to London to Dublin via Liverpool? Since the train journey is faster via Liverpool, would it make up for the longer ferry route?

Id of thought Liverpool adds quite a lot of time on, it really isn't that close to Dublin , compared with Holyhead. Liverpool to Belfast certainly takes forever! Also the port isn't that close to Lime st.

 

[Trainbike46]

Id of thought Liverpool adds quite a lot of time on, it really isn't that close to Dublin , compared with Holyhead. Liverpool to Belfast certainly takes forever! Also the port isn't that close to Lime st.

Does the Liverpool-Dublin ferry take foot passengers? and if it does, will whatever replaces it after P&O closes soon?

Ferries typically operate around 25 mph at most, and often slower, so it will take longer than from Holyhead for sure

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Liverpool to Dublin is 8hrs and doesn't take foot passengers (not even with a bicycle). It leaves from Gladstone Dock in Bootle and a long way out of the city-centre.