HS2 phase 2 cancellation: alternative projects which may take place

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The “network north” proposals did not survive their first contact with reality. Government credibility on transport policy is in tatters. Can Sunak even hold together an increasingly fractious party?

Against this backdrop, and the likelihood that there will be a new government or prime minister soon, the temptation for departmental foot dragging, or “accidentally-on-purpose” continuing to sign contracts for HS2 work and procurement, can only grow stronger. Especially as there will probably be legal or parliamentary challenges so nothing will be final till to use are upheld or dismissed.

Quite interesting, but the query that I raised in response to your earlier posting was concerning your comment that "the whole attempt to cancel HS2 north of Birmingham seems to have failed" and I have not seen any formal annoncement made that says that particular line section will now proceed in the form originally envisaged. If you can provide a link to the official about-turn, I would be most grateful.

 

[HSTEd]

The whole attempt to cancel HS2 north of Birmingham seems to have failed. The plan B is a bust already. There is bound to be a tsunami of litigation obliging the government to make good on its commitments to levelling up.

The purpose of the plan B was to stop Andy Street et al resigning on the spot.

Plan B has now served its purpose and can be safely abandoned as Andy Street's moment to make a statement has gone.
I'd say it has worked perfectly, HS2 is dead and Sunaks power in the party remains largely unchallenged.

 

[Fazaar1889]

The “network north” proposals did not survive their first contact with reality.

They've gone back on their words, instead of being projects that will replace HS2, they're just examples of what the money from HS2 could potentially be used for. Istg...

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Couldn't we have convinced our illustrious PM that HS stood for Helicopter Shuttle?

My guess is that there will be some sort of Liverpool to Manchester to Leeds improvements but what this ends up as is anyone's guess.

 

[BrianW]

For comparison Boris' restore your railway fund was a lot fairer as anyone could submit their local railway, rather than Rishi picking reopenings in marginal constituencies.

IIRC 'Boris' fund' required applications to be supported by local MPs, and it has been suggested that those selected as 'succesful bids' may have had a poltical dimension.

 

[Chris 76]

The purpose of the plan B was to stop Andy Street et al resigning on the spot.

Plan B has now served its purpose and can be safely abandoned as Andy Street's moment to make a statement has gone.
I'd say it has worked perfectly, HS2 is dead and Sunaks power in the party remains largely unchallenged.

The other purpose of Plan B was to get gullible local media all over the country (covering lots of red wall and other marginal constituencies) to put out stories about railways reopening in all sorts of unlikely places as if they were done deals and expected to happen. I'm thinking of BBC 'Midlands Today', which has sent reporters to Oswestry and Leek doing vox pops with pensioners saying how nice it would be if the trains returned to their towns.

 

[BrianW]

The other purpose of Plan B was to get gullible local media all over the country (covering lots of red wall and other marginal constituencies) to put out stories about railways reopening in all sorts of unlikely places as if they were done deals and expected to happen. I'm thinking of BBC 'Midlands Today', which has sent reporters to Oswestry and Leek doing vox pops with pensioners saying how nice it would be if the trains returned to their towns.

There should be laws against taking advantage of (susceptible) 'pensioners'- woke BBC taxpayers' money being wasted, etc, etc. If it sounds too good to be true .,..

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There should be laws against taking advantage of (susceptible) 'pensioners'- woke BBC taxpayers' money being wasted, etc, etc. If it sounds too good to be true .,..

What procedures do new laws have to go through, prior to receiving Royal Assent?

What are woke BBC taxpayers? I am now 78 and the only woke that recently has affected me is when I awake in the morning from a long sleep.

 

[squizzler]

I took it as saying the money was woke: as Gordon Gekko said “money never sleeps”.

 

[52290]

The other purpose of Plan B was to get gullible local media all over the country (covering lots of red wall and other marginal constituencies) to put out stories about railways reopening in all sorts of unlikely places as if they were done deals and expected to happen. I'm thinking of BBC 'Midlands Today', which has sent reporters to Oswestry and Leek doing vox pops with pensioners saying how nice it would be if the trains returned to their towns.

Well I for one am pretty pleased that they are going to extend Metrolink to Manchester Airport and while they're at it they might as well extend the Eccles line to the Trafford centre.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well I for one am pretty pleased that they are going to extend Metrolink to Manchester Airport and while they're at it they might as well extend the Eccles line to the Trafford centre.

When were you first aware of the aspirational extension through the existing Metrolink terminal stop through to other unserved parts of the Wythenshawe area. It has been on their "to do" list for quite a long period of time, but the new line to the Trafford Centre was the number one priority in those days. Then Covid came along with all its financial implications and matters of any new line extensions have been in limbo since that time.

If you look at the wall section at the terminus at Manchester Airport, where different blockwork is on view, that is where the extension line will pass through. Can someone confirm if there already exists some tunnel section on the other side of that wall and where the extension is scheduled to reach.

The matter of extending the Eccles line through to the Trafford Centre is problematical noting both the line disruption and times of no service affecting that particular line in recent times. The existing line to the Trafford Centre already passes close by the Media City complex and as such, that aspiration will be low on their list of priorities. There are currently adequate bus connections already from the bus station in Eccles to the Trafford Centre.

 

[Greybeard33]

I heard Ed Miliband being interviewed about Labour infrastructure policies on BBC Radio 5 Live this morning. Questioned about HS2, he declined to commit to reinstate Phase 2. He said that by the time Labour had won the election next year it would be too late and too costly. He also said that he did not believe Sunak's promises about alternative rail projects, so no commitment that Labour would fund those either.

In which case this thread seems rather pointless!

 

[squizzler]

It is funny that the government have adopted crank rhetoric on “15 minute cities”. I understand that this revolves around a belief the government are trying to restrict mobility to the elites and contain the lower orders to their neighbourhoods.

Does anyone else sense some projection going on here, from a government actually doing everything possible to remove our freedom of movement? Through disinvestment in projects that would increase mobility for anyone without their own jet.

 

[snowball]

It is funny that the government have adopted crank rhetoric on “15 minute cities”. I understand that this revolves around a belief the government are trying to restrict mobility to the elites and contain the lower orders to their neighbourhoods.

Does anyone else sense some projection going on here, from a government actually doing everything possible to remove our freedom of movement? Through disinvestment in projects that would increase mobility for anyone without their own jet.

They government fears it will lose the election badly and is looking around for ways to capture the far-right and crackpot vote from Farage et al.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

An article has appeared on the Rail Technology Magazine website which includes a low resolution map of Northern Powerhouse Rail; the heading of the article is 'Network North details start to take shape after HS2 cancellation', and the map COULD be of those which will be electrified if the collection of "might happen" schemes announced by the government are actually implemented.

It shows a route from Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington and Manchester Airport; Manchester is just shown as a single point without differentiating between the two main stations. The Hope Valley line is shown as going both via Stockport and Marple, and Sheffield to Hull via both Selby and Goole.

My understanding from what was published last week was that there would be line between Bradford and Huddersfield to improve connectivity between Bradford and Manchester/etc, but the map shows a line which partially parallels the TPU route, but then deviates from it somewhere west of Huddersfield; it misses Halifax.

The Sheffield - Leeds route includes two new stations; these are very difficult to read but my guess is that one is at Rotherham and the other to serve Barnsley. It does clearly miss Wakefield, and looks as if it could be following the old North Midland Railway alignment through Normanton

 

[Chris 76]

An article has appeared on the Rail Technology Magazine website which includes a low resolution map of Northern Powerhouse Rail

This article is no better informed and as speculative as other coverage about possible rail investment in the North. The map's interpretation of a new transpennine route doesn't match my reading of the Network North 'report' (polite word for it). The section of that report about Bradford refers to a new line which would enable a 12 minute journey time from Huddersfield to Bradford. So, the line would have to start somewhere on the existing Transpennine route north of Huddersfield, near Brighouse perhaps. North from there to Low Moor on the Halifax-Bradford line.
The Sheffield-Leeds route stations are Rotherham and Barnsley Dearne Valley (which could be a rebuilt Goldthorpe or Thurnscoe or a replacement for both?) Thanks for noticing that it misses Wakefield-interesting. Anything that could speed up cross-country services from the South and Midlands to Yorkshire and the North East (as well as Yorkshire region journeys) should be promoted. It's important that these services go through Leeds, but the Sheffield-Leeds-York section is tediously slow. A direct Leeds-Sheffield service in around 30 minutes or not much more would be great. I remember when some trains used the direct route through Pontefract Baghill, which seems overlooked in discussion of possible post-HS2 fast routes. Could it be upgraded to 100+ mph, or is there mining subsidence or other issue with that route?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm seeing a lot of buzz that London-Birmingham section needs to be redesigned following Sunak's involvement. What design changes need to be made?

Way too late for that except at Euston.

 

[snowball]

However there are credible reports that the government is pressing HS2 to shave costs wherever possible, even though it is under construction throughout the length of phase 1.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Don't worry everyone. The list of projects was just an "example" put together, not what's actually happening.

HS2: announced transport projects were just ‘examples’, says minister

Documents detailing projects to be funded with savings from scrapping HS2 deleted from government website

www.theguardian.com

Don't forget you are reading the Guardian the goverment isn't going to dictate what combine authorities waste their money on!

 

[Bald Rick]

However there are credible reports that the government is pressing HS2 to shave costs wherever possible, even though it is under construction throughout the length of phase 1.

They’ve been doing that for a decade! Which is part of the reason it’s in the mess it is. Constant change of requirements and scope is not conducive to delivering on time on budget.

 

[JamesT]

Although Rishi announced a 6 platform Euston, how plausible would it be to make the building large enough to fit more platforms in later?
Or is the land too valuable to leave empty like that? (I’m assuming development would mostly be over the top of the station).

 

[Halifaxlad]

He also said that he did not believe Sunak's promises about alternative rail projects, so no commitment that Labour would fund those either.

No commitment from Labour to fund Northern Powerhouse Rail... blimey

An article has appeared on the Rail Technology Magazine website which includes a low resolution map of Northern Powerhouse Rail

I havent seen it but is it this it by any chance ?

 

[Parjon]

It's this one, but it's not new it's from TfN from ages ago

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They’ve been doing that for a decade! Which is part of the reason it’s in the mess it is. Constant change of requirements and scope is not conducive to delivering on time on budget.

If the Conservatives are acting as stated, why on earth did they give so many millions to an outright Labour mayor as Andy Burnham in Greater Manchester to set up his own transport vision. I cannot recall any previous Conservative government freely handing out Treasury finance to any party in opposition.

 

[JKF]

The “network north” proposals did not survive their first contact with reality. Government credibility on transport policy is in tatters. Can Sunak even hold together an increasingly fractious party?

Against this backdrop, and the likelihood that there will be a new government or prime minister soon, the temptation for departmental foot dragging, or “accidentally-on-purpose” continuing to sign contracts for HS2 work and procurement, can only grow stronger. Especially as there will probably be legal or parliamentary challenges so nothing will be final till to use are upheld or dismissed.

The point of the ‘Network North’ list was just to give a positive spin for the press, to imply money was being ‘saved’ that could be spent elsewhere, and all the moaners could be happy. It served it’s purpose in this regard. The fact that they’ve backtracked isn’t making prominent headlines and most people will be unaware that these schemes simply aren’t going to happen. They know we know they’re lying, but most of the population who pay scant attention to Railway matters will believe things are still going to happen somewhere. This is how politics works these days, and they’ve pretty much got away with it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

"Network North" to me brings to mind a localised northern region TV news programme"

 

[Meerkat]

The point of the ‘Network North’ list was just to give a positive spin for the press, to imply money was being ‘saved’ that could be spent elsewhere, and all the moaners could be happy. It served it’s purpose in this regard. The fact that they’ve backtracked isn’t making prominent headlines and most people will be unaware that these schemes simply aren’t going to happen. They know we know they’re lying, but most of the population who pay scant attention to Railway matters will believe things are still going to happen somewhere. This is how politics works these days, and they’ve pretty much got away with it.

They have backtracked on the list (suspicion flunkeys gave a list of possibles, speechwriter turned it into definites???), they haven’t backtracked on the budget have they?

 

[snowball]

They have backtracked on the list (suspicion flunkeys gave a list of possibles, speechwriter turned it into definites???), they haven’t backtracked on the budget have they?

Neither have they stated how many centuries it is to be spent over.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Harper made a statement to HoC earlier to basically tell us what we already knew from Tory conference but referenced a number of projects

So, almost £20 billion will go to the North:

With Bradford, ignored under previous proposals, now getting a new station and faster rail connections to Manchester.

Northern Powerhouse Rail now extended to include Hull and Sheffield.

A separate £12 billion fund will better connect Liverpool and Manchester, and I have already spoken to the Mayors of Greater Manchester and the Liverpool City Region to kick start the work on this.

And West Yorkshire, thanks to £2.5 billion of funding, will finally get its mass transit system built in full.

Over 20 road schemes will be delivered.

And crucially, we’ll more than double the transport budgets of Northern Mayors, benefitting our largest cities and smallest towns.

Mr Speaker, we’re also investing in the Midlands, with almost £10 billion ensuring….

• the Midlands Rail Hub is completed in full
• increased mayoral budgets, including £1.5 billion for the new East Midlands City Region
• and councils – from Stoke on Trent to Lincolnshire –seeing long term transport funding settlements for the first time

Finally, the remainder of this transformational investment will be spread across the UK, including….

The hugely popular £2 bus fare cap, which we’re extending, and people will see the benefit of this just next month.

Delivering the Ely Junction project and North Wales Mainline electrification – benefitting both passengers and freight…

And dealing with the menace of potholes, with £8.3 billion in new funding to resurface roads up and down the country.

All told, Network North is a new vision for transport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They have backtracked on the list (suspicion flunkeys gave a list of possibles, speechwriter turned it into definites???), they haven’t backtracked on the budget have they?

What on earth are the "suspicion flunkeys"who gave the list of possibilities ?