Hst Damage Pic Any ideas

[MCR247]

A HST is T+T class 43 locos with 8 Mk3`s

so when you see cl37+load 12mk1`s+cl37 its a unit is it?

the class 43 is a loco and the HST is formed of 2 locos with 8 Mk3`s

the HST is not a loco its a set, the class 43 is a loco

for the 100000 time

Locos: Class 01-99
Units: Class 100+



Nor can a class 60 but its still a loco.

a unit has the same number at the frount as it does the rear apart from when they are connected together whos ever seen (e.g) 222002 on the frount and 222005 on the rear.

ive seen 43`s working LE but units cant do that

But the thingis, HSTs cant just be used with any old mark 3s.

 

[37401]

But the thingis, HSTs cant just be used with any old mark 3s.

I know I didnt say you could

When someone says HST they mean the 43 + Mk3`s + 43, the Class 43 is classed as a loco and Mk3`s as coaching stock

 

[MCR247]

So your expampe of a 37 with MK3s T&T, class 37s could be coupled to mark 2s aswell, HST mark 3s could not be coupled to a class 37.

Also, this is a question, could a HST PC just uncouple in a siding, like say a 67 could do with a rake of mark 1s?

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

Also, this is a question, could a HST PC just uncouple in a siding, like say a 67 could do with a rake of mark 1s?

Yea. You can uncouple a Powercar from a rake of Mk3s in a siding.

 

[37401]

So your expampe of a 37 with MK3s T&T, class 37s could be coupled to mark 2s aswell, HST mark 3s could not be coupled to a class 37.

Also, this is a question, could a HST PC just uncouple in a siding, like say a 67 could do with a rake of mark 1s?

you miss read my post

firstly I said class 37+ Mk1`s (not 3`s)

Cl37+ Load 12 Mk1`s +cl37

Class 37= loco
Mk1`s= Coaching stock

Cl43+ Load 8 Mk3`s +cl43

Cl43= loco
Mk3`s = Coaching stock

The class 43 is a type 4, only diesel locos come under the "Type system" (whatever its called)

how often do you see just the DMxx of a unit? try never

but with the 43: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3215/2665376050_b371a7980d.jpg

 

[starrymarkb]

Quite often... Lincolnshire is a good place to look...

Also See Class 121 and 122

Also see assorted Swiss Narrow Gauge where EMU motor coaches have cabs at each end and are used to haul stock... RhB, MGB (Luggage motor, much like an HST and numbered as a unit), BOB (pre-2005 - they have now bought some Driving trailers and run as fixed formation), ZB (where the SPATZ units can be seen hauling unpowered rakes in push pull form).

Here's a BOB Motor Coach hauling a rake

And are these Locos or units? They are used as locos and will run round the train at the terminus - yet have both First and Standard class seating...

And here is a Motor Baggage car of MGB - Its rather like an HST powercar and operates in a similar way (except for the top speed of about 50mph) - it is also classed as a Unit... but would you say so...

Now what the Bahns abroad class as is neither here nor there, but I thought it would give something to blur the unit/loco debate

 

[90019]

so when you see cl37+load 12mk1`s+cl37 its a unit is it?

No, because they are separate locos and can operate with other stock.

Nor can a class 60 but its still a loco.

So it can't haul any rolling stock at all then?
I should've worded what I said slightly differently; they cannot work with any other rolling stock, properly that is, if you see what I mean, (Only the specific HST Mk3s) or Loco/MU without prior modification.

a unit has the same number at the frount as it does the rear apart from when they are connected together whos ever seen (e.g) 222002 on the frount and 222005 on the rear.

No one, because they're fixed formation units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Locos: Class 01-99
Units: Class 100+

So, this is a class 57 loco and 52 loco working together then?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/156410_at_Nottingham.JPG
Because it has 57410 on the DMS and 52410 on the DMSL, and they're the same type of TOPS codes as on the HST DMB, so by your logic, this means that they're two locos.

And also according to your logic, this is a class 42:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Mark3tso.JPG
Because it has the 42XXX TOPS code on the side of it, and again it's the same TOPS codes as the DMB.

 

[TEW]

Class 43s have coach numbers, as do the coaches, funnily enough. Therefore it is just a rake of coaching stock.

 

[Lampshade]

A 153 doesn't really count, it was originally part of a DMU (155) and is now referred to as a single car DMU - it can work in multiple with other Sprinters.

 

[Dai.]

A 153 doesn't really count, it was originally part of a DMU (155) and is now referred to as a single car DMU - it can work in multiple with other Sprinters.

It also works with 170's

London Midland

 

[asylumxl]

By most definitions an HST set is a unit.

 

[Techniquest]

Why the obsession by so many to determine which it is or isn't?

A HST is a HST. Don't care if they can't work with other classes, why would they be designed to? Why would you want to design it to?

If you want to call the power cars locos, then do it. If you want to call HSTs units, then go for it. To me, they're neither. Why we have to have this debate every few weeks is beyond me!

 

[Lampshade]

I've reached a compromise, it's a loco-hauled DEMU

 

[Old Timer]

For God's sake there is SO much crap spouted on here by those who weren't even born when HSTs came into service :roll::roll::roll:

Listen up !

I TRAINED HSTs back in the 70s, so I speak from experience.


BR classified HSTs as DEMUs.

When the Power cars are detached from the sets they are treated as locomotives.

Power cars can be physically attached to ANY vehicle with a buckeye coupling but the can only provide ETS to HST vehicles, and cannot operate the braking system properly.

The braking system on a HST although air, is a modified duplicated two pipe system which means that if attached to Mk3 stock, the stock will only work Single Pipe.

If you do not understand the last paragraph then you should not be part of the debate.

Sorry but the point is made !

 

[90019]

Power cars are detached from the sets they are treated as locomotives.

Just out of curiosity, how does this work with the MLVs?
Are they considered locos in the same way when running on their own or are they still considered EMUs?
Although I would guess they're still considered EMUs.

 

[Old Timer]

I cannot really comment on MLVs as I have no experience on the Southern.

I would make an informed guess that they are treated by default as EMUs, in the same way that 4TCs were. Certainly they were never classified as locos under BR.

You would really need someone like SWT Driver to answer that one.

 

[37401]

No, because they are separate locos and can operate with other stock.

as is the Class 43, and it can work with other stock: Mk1 Barrier

saying "the class 43 is a unit because it cant work in multiple with other locos"

so it this a unit?

as it can only work with the same class
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, this is a class 57 loco and 52 loco working together then?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/156410_at_Nottingham.JPG
Because it has 57410 on the DMS and 52410 on the DMSL, and they're the same type of TOPS codes as on the HST DMB, so by your logic, this means that they're two locos.

And also according to your logic, this is a class 42:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Mark3tso.JPG
Because it has the 42XXX TOPS code on the side of it, and again it's the same TOPS codes as the DMB.

err no because im talking about the actual class of loco unit not the rolling stock. eg

Class 01-99 = Loco e.g: 37,97,50,55,52,60,56
Class 100+ = Unit e.g: 321 150 390

rolling stock it not class anything

try and find a unit thats knowen as a class xx and not class xxx

HST is a set neither Unit nor loco

Class 43 is a loco
HST mk3 is rolling stock

 

[bluebottle]

If an HST is a 253/4 unit surely it should carry a 253xxx/254xxx unit number, can anyone supply a current list of numbers? If not then they're loco + stock.

 

[theblackwatch]

I know I said I wouldn't get involved but my view of the argument hasn't come up!

Has anyone thought that a HST is neither? In train planning, there is: Units, Locos and HSTs.

In my view HSTs are HSTs and not Locos or Units.

I'm not fussed whether people share my views or not, but they're mine.

That'smy opinion too. Some people seem to insist they are one or the other. For those poeple who do think everything has to be a loco or unit, which of the 2 do you put a Track Machine or MPV as?

 

[flymo]

They did carry 253/254 unit numbers years ago but as power cars/locos/units {delete as you wish} could be swapped between sets you could have a different 253 or 254 number on each end. One of the reasons why they stopped putting them on there.

 

[xfileswilly]

What about 91s and Mk4s. there are similarity's there.

I know that 91s are classified locos but there can only operate with Mk4s?

 

[O L Leigh]

For God's sake there is SO much crap spouted on here by those who weren't even born when HSTs came into service :roll::roll::roll:

+1.

While I don't have OT's technical experience, the points that I made the last time this topic was hotly debated broadly mirror his.

To my simplistic railway brain, a loco can haul anything irrespective of type. Therefore, as a Cl91 has conventional drawgear and can be used just as successfully on a ballast train as at the pointy end of a rake of Mk4's. HST powercars cannot because of the restrictions imposed by their couplers and the braking system. Sure they can be made to have this capability, but only with major modifications. But then, as I have said before, the same could be said of any MU powercar, but it doesn't make a Cl321 motor coach a loco.

The same applies to HST trailers. We're not talking about just any old rake of Mk3's but a train with specific braking and electrical characteristics, as GC found out. If you want to move a train of HST trailers with a conventional loco you need a barrier/translator vehicle, the same as if you want to move an EMU or DMU with a loco. You can't just hook up a loco, plug in all the cables and hoses and be on your way.

The resistance to seeing HST's as MU's is down to these trains not running as a permanently formed set. Individual vehicles are swapped in and out of sets for maintenance purposes and the fleet becomes muddled up very quickly making set numbers meaningless. But then again, there are quite a few hybrid EMU's and DMU's out there too.

Then again, I think that folk are just resistant to the idea of HST's as MU's on the basis that it would be embarassing for them to admit to being interested in units.

O L Leigh

 

[yorkie]

Right, I can't be bothered with a long post, so I'll just list.

HSTs are units, always have been, always will be, and this is why;

No, they were classified as units but that error was corrected a long time ago.

• The powercars cannot work in multiple with any other train without prior modification (ie. when they were used as stand in DVTs)

• T stands for "trailer", that means not powered. While it is true that in the very early days of working with Class 91s, they were not powering that was soon rectified. There are video clips on Youtube where you can clearly hear both the 91 and the 43 powering, and I've read articles about the superb timings that they were able to achieve due to great acceleration.
  2x HST power cars together have formed the sleeper. No modification needed other than using a buckeye (see Old Timer's post above)

• They are semi-fixed formation DEMUs, classes 253/254, the reason for not using this is because they're semi-fixed, and the sets do not stay the same, so if they did use these, the numbers would be different at each end of the train. Would the DMS of a sprinter become a class 57 if they were semi-fixed, the sets changed around and the 156XXX codes on the front were no longer used?

They are not class 253/254 any more, this information is very out of date! They are no more fixed than any other fixed formation stock e.g. Class 91 and a rake of Mk4s, or Class 90 and a rake of Mk3s so this point is irrelevant.

• The powercars do contain passenger space, but in the form of luggage space. If you don't think this is the case, why is the 419 an EMU and not a loco?

That's not passenger space.

• The Mk3s within the HSTs are Trailers, ie. TS being Trailer Standard, as opposed to LHCS mk3s which are TSOs or Tourist Standard Open.

By that logic, DVT is a Driving Van Trailer, so any loco attached to the other end of one ceases to become a loco as it's part of a EMU/DMU?

If a HST is a unit for the above reasons, then so is a 91+Mk4s, or a 90+Mk3s, and even the top n tail Class 37s with through wiring that Arriva used. The Class 37s were used "in multiple" with both powering, in a fixed formation, no need to run round, the coaches were modified for this purpose. Of course it would be daft to say that if you detached the Class 37s from the train and ran them 'light' away from the coaching stock that they cease to become locos, but it is equally daft to suggest the same of Class 43s.

An HST is an HST, not a DMU. And they can operate seperately as locomotives and can haul other trains using the buckeye coupling and have hauled the sleeper on one or two occasions when a Class 57 was unavailable.

What about 91s and Mk4s. there are similarity's there.

I know that 91s are classified locos but there can only operate with Mk4s?

Class 91s can haul anything.

[youtube]oKRpAsTnOQY[/youtube]

Can those who claim HSTs are DMUs please explain what is in this video? (Don't say a 91 hauling a DMU because it clearly isn't, and if you turn your speakers up you can hear that it isn't).

 

[berwickspotter]

was the driver ok ???

 

[starrymarkb]

The plan there was for the 91 to haul a HST rake with the Powercar idling to provide hotel power (which the 91 couldn't do) - it was found that the powercar idling was killing the engine so they modified the TDM to allow the powercar to give power too. The Powercars were heavily modified to work with a 91 (gaining TDM and losing ATP)

In a similar way when the 442s were being built NSE needed a way to remove 4-REPs from traffic so that the motors and traction gear could be scavenged for use in 442s. Faced with less units then they needed someone came up with the idea of replacing a REP Driving Motor with a Class 73 - now is a Rep73 hybrid a unit or a loco?

 

[yorkie]

This must be a DMU according to some people

[youtube]wFEzLVmlRT0[/youtube]

 

[flymo]

Just love the sound of those 37s.

 

[37401]

The same applies to HST trailers. We're not talking about just any old rake of Mk3's but a train with specific braking and electrical characteristics, as GC found out. If you want to move a train of HST trailers with a conventional loco you need a barrier/translator vehicle, the same as if you want to move an EMU or DMU with a loco. You can't just hook up a loco, plug in all the cables and hoses and be on your way.

so your saying the Mk3`s are like a unit not the "power cars"?

as said a loco can not hook up to a unit it needs a barrier, but a loco (class 67) can hook up to another loco (class 43)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQqvmY7z1ak

 

[90019]

While it is true that in the very early days of working with Class 91s, they were not powering that was soon rectified. There are video clips on Youtube where you can clearly hear both the 91 and the 43 powering, and I've read articles about the superb timings that they were able to achieve due to great acceleration.

The powercars were modified further because having them just idling the whole time was bad for the engines.

2x HST power cars together have formed the sleeper. No modification needed other than using a buckeye (see Old Timer's post above)

Um, no, they had two powercars back to back and used the towbar.

They are not class 253/254 any more, this information is very out of date! They are no more fixed than any other fixed formation stock e.g. Class 91 and a rake of Mk4s, or Class 90 and a rake of Mk3s so this point is irrelevant.

They're semi-fixed formation, which is not the same as fixed formation, which is what most MUs are.

That's not passenger space.

So why are the 419s not locos then? They only have luggage space.

By that logic, DVT is a Driving Van Trailer, so any loco attached to the other end of one ceases to become a loco as it's part of a EMU/DMU?

Errm, how?
By your logic the DVT is a loco because it only has luggage space, but it's not, it's classed as coaching stock, as are the rest of the mk4s. The mk4s can also be hauled by other locos. HST Mk3s cannot without either prior modification or the use of a barrier vehicle (Which, if you're going to try and say that counts, is a specially modified piece of rolling stock to enable a loco to haul rolling stock that does not have compatible couplers).

Class 91s can haul anything.

[youtube]oKRpAsTnOQY[/youtube]

Can those who claim HSTs are DMUs please explain what is in this video? (Don't say a 91 hauling a DMU because it clearly isn't, and if you turn your speakers up you can hear that it isn't).

No, the HST DMB was modified so that it could be used as a stand in DVT and, IIRC, it was also to provide ETS to the Mk3s, hence at first was permenantly idling.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Then again, I think that folk are just resistant to the idea of HST's as MU's on the basis that it would be embarassing for them to admit to being interested in units.

By their logic these are all locos because they're powered, have been split and are not working in their original formations

 

[starrymarkb]

so your saying the Mk3`s are like a unit not the "power cars"?

as said a loco can not hook up to a unit it needs a barrier, but a loco (class 67) can hook up to another loco (class 43)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQqvmY7z1ak

Units with Autocouplers also have drawbars to enable them to couple to a Locomotive...