Hull trains to St Pancras this Sunday, 3rd Dec

[mike57]

Due to engineering work on the ECML this Sunday Hull trains are running a reduced service into St Pancras. A few questions and thoughts:

Hull trains, as an open access operator obviously find it profitable to organise what is a major diversion rather than just give up or put everyone on buses...

The Doncaster call is omitted, I assume because of overcrowding concerns, even although the service still goes through Doncaster

Journey time is extended by about 40 minutes, which doesn't seem too bad.

The route takes the 'old road' avoiding Sheffield, is it quicker, or just easier to path

Will they be running as a doubled up 10 car to provivde capacity, can the MML platforms at St Pancras cope with a 10 car 800.

 

[43055]

Due to engineering work on the ECML this Sunday Hull trains are running a reduced service into St Pancras. A few questions and thoughts:

Hull trains, as an open access operator obviously find it profitable to organise what is a major diversion rather than just give up or put everyone on buses...

The Doncaster call is omitted, I assume because of overcrowding concerns, even although the service still goes through Doncaster

Journey time is extended by about 40 minutes, which doesn't seem too bad.

The route takes the 'old road' avoiding Sheffield, is it quicker, or just easier to path

Will they be running as a doubled up 10 car to provivde capacity, can the MML platforms at St Pancras cope with a 10 car 800.

Will be 5 car as St Pancras cannot take 10 car 802s as it would be too long for the platforms.

 

[eastwestdivide]

They also run via Thrybergh Junction and Toton centre for the track bashers. HT have done St Pancras diversions a few times previously.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hull trains, as an open access operator obviously find it profitable to organise what is a major diversion rather than just give up or put everyone on buses...

Grand Central, who aren't running any trains at all, take note...

 

[mike57]

Will be 5 car as St Pancras cannot take 10 car 802s as it would be too long for the platforms.

That would explain the lack of Doncaster call as HT are running 10 car on some services, they will pretty much be able to fill a 5 car from the East Yorkshire and Selby calls I imagine

 

[ainsworth74]

The route takes the 'old road' avoiding Sheffield, is it quicker, or just easier to path

I believe it's easier to path as Sheffield is quite congested. But open to correction.

 

[deltic]

How do they retain route knowledge?

 

[TheBigD]

How do they retain route knowledge?

On previous occasions they have had route conductors.

 

[800001]

Due to engineering work on the ECML this Sunday Hull trains are running a reduced service into St Pancras. A few questions and thoughts:

Hull trains, as an open access operator obviously find it profitable to organise what is a major diversion rather than just give up or put everyone on buses...

The Doncaster call is omitted, I assume because of overcrowding concerns, even although the service still goes through Doncaster

Journey time is extended by about 40 minutes, which doesn't seem too bad.

The route takes the 'old road' avoiding Sheffield, is it quicker, or just easier to path

Will they be running as a doubled up 10 car to provivde capacity, can the MML platforms at St Pancras cope with a 10 car 800.

It’s not that other operators ‘just give up’ or ‘put on buses’ as you say.

Even if LNER Could divert via Midland Mainline, there is not the capacity at St Pancras for them to have.

Also, as yet they don’t have access to London Liverpool Street. So LNER have no option but to terminate at Peterborough and St Neots.

Before the strike action was announced the plan was for buses from St Neots to Bedford, to connect in with GTR services to St Pancras, these are now not running, and EMR are running a severely reduced service.

Therefore LNER have now amended coaches to run to Cockfosters and then customers use Piccadilly like forward.

What would your suggestion be for the TOCs that you feel ‘just give up’.

LNER are actually one of the better TOcs for diverting, eg, via Cambridge, Durham Coast, Lincoln and Carlisle.

 

[mike57]

Grand Central, who aren't running any trains at all, take note...

It does bring into question some of the responses when this question is raised with other operators, and leads me to the conclusion that its 'Cant be bothered' in a lot of cases.

 

[800001]

Grand Central, who aren't running any trains at all, take note...

GC can’t even manage to run a normal timetable without attempting to run diverted services.
Even with the 221s still numerous cancellations.

 

[TheBigD]

GC can’t even manage to run a normal timetable without attempting to run diverted services.
Even with the 221s still numerous cancellations.

Indeed.
7 trains needed from their fleet of 10 x 180, plus the extra 2 x180 and 2 x 221 that they currently have. Just 50% availability needed and they still struggle.

 

[ainsworth74]

Also, as yet they don’t have access to London Liverpool Street.

Hopefully that does eventually come off as that'll be a novel diversion.

LNER are actually one of the better TOcs for diverting, eg, via Cambridge, Durham Coast, Lincoln and Carlisle.

Absolutely, LNER and their previous incarnations have done an excellent job in retaining strong diversionary options and not being afraid to use them at the drop of a hat either. I've been via thr Hertford loop a few times unplanned, via Leeds (when coming from York) on at least one occasion and I've seen them going via Lincoln, the Durham Coast and Carlisle when the mainline is unexpectedly unavailable. Can't fault them!

GC can’t even manage to run a normal timetable without attempting to run diverted services.
Even with the 221s still numerous cancellations.

Ha true! But this has been their approach for a long time. Even before their 180s were causing them the recent significant issues they would jack it in if Kings Cross wasn't available due to engineering.

 

[mike57]

It’s not that other operators ‘just give up’ or ‘put on buses’ as you say.

Even if LNER Could divert via Midland Mainline, there is not the capacity at St Pancras for them to have.

Also, as yet they don’t have access to London Liverpool Street. So LNER have no option but to terminate at Peterborough and St Neots.

Before the strike action was announced the plan was for buses from St Neots to Bedford, to connect in with GTR services to St Pancras, these are now not running, and EMR are running a severely reduced service.

Therefore LNER have now amended coaches to run to Cockfosters and then customers use Piccadilly like forward.

What would your suggestion be for the TOCs that you feel ‘just give up’.

LNER are actually one of the better TOcs for diverting, eg, via Cambridge, Durham Coast, Lincoln and Carlisle.

I understand about capacity St Pancras, but there other options, bus to Cockfosters and Piccadilly line is going to be pretty unpleasant. Even if LNER dont have Liverpool St access (why not?) could they terminate say one train per hour at Cambridge for a strengthened onward GA service, it is a Sunday, and perhaps run one train per hour into St Pancras.

More interestingly National Rail Enquiries are now stating that the engineering work is cancelled: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/engineering-works/potters-bar-20231203/

As for TOCs that 'just give up' in my experience (not just railways) the only way to change corporate behaviour is through financial penalties, companies will pay lip service to all sorts of things, but when that failure to address issues affects shareholders payout and senior manager bonuses then things change, and quickly. Yes its a blunt tool, and in a lot of cases you feel that it shouldn't have to get that far for the message to be received, but thats another topic completely.

 

[NSE]

Does anyone know if there is another date scheduled for the STP diversions. Busy Sunday otherwise I’d have done that.

 

[LowLevel]

Hull Trains have diverted into St Pancras for years, it is part of their track access contract.

The opportunity isn't available to other TOCs even if they wanted to take it up as they don't have the access rights HT have had for so long.

 

[mike57]

The opportunity isn't available to other TOCs even if they wanted to take it up as they don't have the access rights HT have had for so long.

Currently no, but the infrastructure exists and is suitable for 800s because thats what HT use, its about paper work and agreements. If there was a will it COULD be done. Maybe only 1tph, but better than nothing. Limit capacity by resticting calling points, in the same way as HT obviously did with the Doncaster call, probably concentrating on the further destinations.

 

[ainsworth74]

Does anyone know if there is another date scheduled for the STP diversions. Busy Sunday otherwise I’d have done that.

Few weekends in January including the Saturday and Sunday as it's a total block all weekend.

 

[JonathanH]

Currently no, but the infrastructure exists and is suitable for 800s because thats what HT use, its about paper work and agreements. If there was a will it COULD be done. Maybe only 1tph, but better than nothing.

Hull Trains taking 2 services into St Pancras using route conductors is a far cry from LNER diverting hourly Edinburgh services into St Pancras.

The option for passengers to do 'DIY diversions' using EMR from Sheffield or Nottingham and indeed Avanti from Scotland exists in any case.

 

[43066]

Will they be running as a doubled up 10 car to provivde capacity, can the MML platforms at St Pancras cope with a 10 car 800.

No, as noted above (this why EMR’s 810s will have shorter vehicles than the rest of the 8XX family).

Platforming is already a huge challenge at St Pancras (remember it’s only four platforms), as is capacity on the MML generally - especially South of Bedford

If there was a will it COULD be done. Maybe only 1tph, but better than nothing.

The infrastructure and capacity limitations mean it’s likely impossible anyway. Even ignoring these, you’re right there probably isn’t a will amongst OA to make it happen either, as it likely wouldn’t be commercially viable given how few would use a service with limited calling points, only running once per hour etc.

If it was felt desirable to run it for wider societal benefits these operators would need a commercial incentive to operate it, or at least their agreements would need to be structured and priced so that they didn’t lose money by being required to do so (as appears to be the case with HT into Pancras). That would cost £££ that isn’t likely to be forthcoming due to a lack of will from the government.

 

[LowLevel]

Currently no, but the infrastructure exists and is suitable for 800s because thats what HT use, its about paper work and agreements. If there was a will it COULD be done. Maybe only 1tph, but better than nothing. Limit capacity by resticting calling points, in the same way as HT obviously did with the Doncaster call, probably concentrating on the further destinations.

It could perhaps with a lot of messing about, but no one other than your good self appears to think it *should*, so it won't.

Hull Trains have an odd historical track access right. They use (or used, dunno if it is still them) West Coast RC route conductors.

 

[43066]

It could perhaps with a lot of messing about, but no one other than your good self appears to think it *should*, so it won't.

Hull Trains have an odd historical track access right. They use (or used, dunno if it is still them) West Coast RC route conductors.

That particular historical agreement is generally perceived as a pain in the backside in some quarters (especially if you speak to the staff on the ground trying to platform the trains). The much enhanced EMR service since the 360s launched has made this kind of thing a lot trickier to accommodate, especially as it runs on busy weekends when the ECML is shut.

With seemingly ever more Thameslinks running, and the route being incredibly congested, I wonder how long it will continue for. Surely we are approaching the point where the disbenefits/costs outweigh the advantages to a relatively small number of passengers.

 

[NSE]

Few weekends in January including the Saturday and Sunday as it's a total block all weekend.

Thank you, will keep an eye out

 

[ainsworth74]

I wonder how long it will continue for.

Presumably at least as long as their track access agreement runs as I believe that is where the rights for them to go to St Pancras come from!

 

[800001]

I understand about capacity St Pancras, but there other options, bus to Cockfosters and Piccadilly line is going to be pretty unpleasant. Even if LNER dont have Liverpool St access (why not?) could they terminate say one train per hour at Cambridge for a strengthened onward GA service, it is a Sunday, and perhaps run one train per hour into St Pancras.

More interestingly National Rail Enquiries are now stating that the engineering work is cancelled: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/engineering-works/potters-bar-20231203/

As for TOCs that 'just give up' in my experience (not just railways) the only way to change corporate behaviour is through financial penalties, companies will pay lip service to all sorts of things, but when that failure to address issues affects shareholders payout and senior manager bonuses then things change, and quickly. Yes its a blunt tool, and in a lot of cases you feel that it shouldn't have to get that far for the message to be received, but thats another topic completely.

Bus to Cockfosters is only happening due to industrial action by GTR on Thames link and limited EMR.
Bus to bedford on previous occasions then train forward has worked well before.

As for diverting even one LNER per hour to St Pancras that’s a whole new route for there drivers to learn and maintain that knowledge, it’s hard enough keeping the knowledge for the many diversion routes they have already.

As for diverting to Cambridge and then services forward, Kings Cross is closed completely, so all services would have to go to Liverpool Street.

LNER have taken the initiative lately and route proved an Azuma into Liverpool Street, the next process will be route learning at some point.

 

[43066]

Presumably at least as long as their track access agreement runs as I believe that is where the rights for them to go to St Pancras come from!

Quite possibly.

As for diverting even one LNER per hour to St Pancras that’s a whole new route for there drivers to learn and maintain that knowledge, it’s hard enough keeping the knowledge for the many diversion routes they have already.

Presumably they may do it by inbound drivers being met by route conductors and conducted in and out, as Southeastern did with their services into and out of the ex Waterloo International platforms a few years ago. Probably easier/cheaper than training and retaining competency on a rarely used diversion into a complex area.

 

[DarloRich]

In them olden days when both Hull Trains and GC ran with 180's they joined services at Doncaster to offer a joint service to avoid engineering works. I have some pictures somewhere....................

 

[ainsworth74]

In them olden days when both Hull Trains and GC ran with 180's they joined services at Doncaster to offer a joint service to avoid engineering works. I have some pictures somewhere....................

I thought they only tried that once and it did not go well...

 

[DarloRich]

I thought they only tried that once and it did not go well...

No idea: the train I saw coupled up and chugged off after a bit of faffing. Ok quite a bit of faffing but it worked eventually!

 

[The Planner]

Presumably at least as long as their track access agreement runs as I believe that is where the rights for them to go to St Pancras come from!

Depends if they are contingent rights though. If they are and its deemed there is no capacity it St Pancras, they will struggle.