Hydroflex - testing

[Bald Rick]

Hydrogen-powered train makes UK maiden journey

The Hydroflex made a 25-mile round-trip in Warwickshire, reaching speeds of up to 50 mph.

www.bbc.co.uk

A hydrogen-powered train has travelled on Britain’s rail network for the first time.

The prototype, called the Hydroflex, made a 25-mile round trip through Warwickshire and Worcestershire, reaching speeds of up to 50 mph.

Its next phase is to move the hydrogen tanks, fuel cell and battery out of a carriage and stash them underneath the train.

The aim is for the train to start carrying paying passengers by the end of 2021.

Particularly enjoyed the lead engineer saying “This is cutting edge technology”, whilst on something that to all intents and purposes is a Class 319 squealing through some track work.

Anyway, it’s out testing on the main line.

 

[rd749249]

Anything that emits only water has to be a good thing. Very encouraging.

 

[iknowyeah]

Whilst it's progress, the motor/hydrogen tank/converter takes up a whole carriage, and it barely made 50mph. A while yet before it's feasible in service

 

[Bald Rick]

Anything that emits only water has to be a good thing. Very encouraging.

But where does the hydrogen come from?

 

[Bob Price]

I remember seeing the Japanese one a few years ago on Japan Railway Journal, the converter took up a large space as well. Some work to do to get beyond the hype and into a real system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hydrogen-powered train makes UK maiden journey

The Hydroflex made a 25-mile round-trip in Warwickshire, reaching speeds of up to 50 mph.

www.bbc.co.uk

Particularly enjoyed the lead engineer saying “This is cutting edge technology”, whilst on something that to all intents and purposes is a Class 319 squealing through some track work.

And wowing about 50mph - what year is it again?

Whilst it's progress, the motor/hydrogen tank/converter takes up a whole carriage, and it barely made 50mph. A while yet before it's feasible in service

I believe there's a technology, been around for years but a bit forgotten, that involves having a separate vehicle at the end of the train that contains the fuel and the means of processing it into movement. Can anyone think what that is? It'd be ideal.

You could even have an EMU onto which you could add one if it was necessary, designed to couple automatically and be controlled from the EMU.

 

[ABB125]

I rather like the BBC's statement that it ran on a 25 mile trip through Warwickshire: remind me, which county is Evesham in?
Had I not moved to Birmingham for university, I would have gone out to see it. I think that's the first time I've seen Evesham station on the news!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Whilst it's progress, the motor/hydrogen tank/converter takes up a whole carriage, and it barely made 50mph. A while yet before it's feasible in service

Not sure there is scope for more than 50mph on the route used - the branch is only 20mph, and Honeybourne-Evesham is only 5 miles of 75mph.
Evesham will not be impressed at being told it's in Warwickshire, either.

 

[BRX]

Are these units testing something that's substantially different from the German entirely newbuild units that seem to be already in service, or nearly in service? Because at first sight, it seems like it's a technology that's already been developed further elsewhere.

 

[hwl]

Are these units testing something that's substantially different from the German entirely newbuild units that seem to be already in service, or nearly in service? Because at first sight, it seems like it's a technology that's already been developed further elsewhere.

1) Showing it can be done in the UK with different gas safety rules (the non fuel cell hydrogen engineering challenges are large)
2) Someone other than the Alstom/Ballard partnership
3) A big part of the challenge is actually getting the battery and non hydrogen power systems right and tailored to routes /stopping patterns.
4) Beating Eversholt/Alstom and their PR machine to a first run in the UK, it shows the converted Breeze 321s aren't the only option.

Whilst it's progress, the motor/hydrogen tank/converter takes up a whole carriage, and it barely made 50mph. A while yet before it's feasible in service

It is an R&D project, they have only fitted a small set of fuel cells to avoid spending a whole lot of money on the first iteration, the idea to to examine all the challenges and gather understanding /learnings before service capable one is built. e.g. understanding battery management and software. (All Hydrogen MUs are Battery MUs with a Hydrogen powered charger, that charges at substantially less than the maximum traction power requirement with the rest coming from the batteries)

 

[BRX]

1) Showing it can be done in the UK with different gas safety rules (the non fuel cell hydrogen engineering challenges are large)

Are they more restrictive in the UK?

 

[hwl]

Are they more restrictive in the UK?

Some differences and then there is all the UK specific paperwork sign off, working out the steps in the certification process for Hydrogen is also part of the learning experience. Hydroflex is a learning experience rather than a product in the current iteration.

 

[grangergranger]

The Hydroflex has so much potential and it is a great step for decarbonisation.

But then you look at the class 769s and how long the delays with the engines took. How much more with the new hydrogen equipment.

Doesn't look promising production wise

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Interesting to hear this news. (and that Evesham has moved counties.)

 

[DerekC]

Good progress - I know how much hard work has gone into this. Yes, there is a long way to go, but at least we have started! the University of Birmingham's press release is a bit more informative on some aspects, including "the ambition for Tees Valley to become a trailblazing Hydrogen Transport Hub".

Not sure about trailblazing and hydrogen together in the same sentence! However:

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/l...ure-as-transport-hub-and-train-announced.aspx

UK embraces hydrogen-fuelled future as transport hub and train announced
Posted on 30 Sep 2020
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The first ever hydrogen powered train will run on the UK mainline today (Sept 30) as part of a major project in partnership with the University of Birmingham – signalling a big step forward towards the UK’s net zero targets.

Today’s trials of the train, known as HydroFLEX, which have been supported with a £750,000 grant from the Department for Transport, follow almost two years’ development work and more than £1million of investment by both the University of Birmingham and Porterbrook.

Unlike diesel trains, hydrogen-powered trains do not emit harmful gases, instead using hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity, water and heat. The ground-breaking technology behind the trains will also be available by 2023 to retrofit current in-service trains to hydrogen helping decarbonise the rail network and make rail journeys greener and more efficient.

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps, who met yesterday (Sept 29) with leading rail experts from the University of Birmingham’s Birmingham Centre for Railway Research and Education (BCRRE) onsite to see first-hand HydroFLEX on the mainline, has also today announced the ambition for Tees Valley to become a trailblazing Hydrogen Transport Hub .........

The BBC did make a bit of a blooper over the geography. Turns out the county boundary is at the Long Marston gate, so pretty much all the trip was in Worcestershire! Anyway they did interview the engineers before the inevitable politician, so I will forgive them.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I'm convinced now more than ever before the DfT is run by crows (not of the Bob type) with an obsession for shiny things.

 

[ABB125]

Good progress - I know how much hard work has gone into this. Yes, there is a long way to go, but at least we have started! the University of Birmingham's press release is a bit more informative on some aspects, including "the ambition for Tees Valley to become a trailblazing Hydrogen Transport Hub".

Not sure about trailblazing and hydrogen together in the same sentence! However:

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/l...ure-as-transport-hub-and-train-announced.aspx



The BBC did make a bit of a blooper over the geography. Turns out the county boundary is at the Long Marston gate, so pretty much all the trip was in Worcestershire! Anyway they did interview the engineers before the inevitable politician, so I will forgive them.

Is it just me, or does that picture look like Grant Shapps has been photoshopped in?

 

[Bald Rick]

It has limited potential.

Firstly, for decarb, the hydrogen must be at least ‘blue’ ie generated by electrolysis from the Grid, and preferably ‘green’ ie generated from 100% renewable sources.

Secondly, various studies have shown that battery technology is much cheaper and easier than hydrogen in most applications. (Compare the number of battery vehicles on the roads to hydrogen vehicles).

Hydrogen’s use will be limited to lightly used, longer branch lines, and potentially some freight applications.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

"the ambition for Tees Valley to become a trailblazing Hydrogen Transport Hub".

Not sure about trailblazing and hydrogen together in the same sentence! However:

"the ambition for Tees Valley to become a trailblazing Hydrogen Transport Hub". I think Informed sources 10th law applies here

INFORMED SOURCES LAWS

Tenth Law ‘If something has to be claimed as declared “world-beating” ( trailblazing) it almost certainly isn’t’

 

[102 fan]

Am I alone in being wary of hydrogen as a fuel, regarding safety in a crash scenario?

 

[Bald Rick]

Am I alone in being wary of hydrogen as a fuel, regarding safety in a crash scenario?

Not alone, but possibly misplaced. Much better to be in a crash with hydrogen fuel (lighter than air) than diesel (heavier).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

It has limited potential.

Firstly, for decarb, the hydrogen must be at least ‘blue’ ie generated by electrolysis from the Grid, and preferably ‘green’ ie generated from 100% renewable sources.

Secondly, various studies have shown that battery technology is much cheaper and easier than hydrogen in most applications. (Compare the number of battery vehicles on the roads to hydrogen vehicles).

Hydrogen’s use will be limited to lightly used, longer branch lines, and potentially some freight applications.

Annoyingly, I reckon some of those lightly used, longer branch lines would be more cheaply served with full electrification. I think there's an unfortunate but understandable tendency to budget electrifying some branch lines with conventional UK Master Series catenary, when a more bespoke, lower cost electrification system might be best utilised.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I did think it was funny when she said "we now need to find a way to get the hydrogen tanks underneath the train so we can have room for passengers inside!"

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I did think it was funny when she said "we now need to find a way to get the hydrogen tanks underneath the train so we can have room for passengers inside!"

Hydrogen tanks on the roof or inside the passenger saloon collision cell are fine, underfloor mounted tanks aren't. How many diesel tanks and air reservoirs/air pipework have we had ruptured or ripped off by broken rails, points, sleepers or debris during derailments or when impacting fallen trees etc ?

I'll be interested to see the protection (and its weight) needed to protect the hydrogen tanks and pipework from an errant switch blade...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Not alone, but possibly misplaced. Much better to be in a crash with hydrogen fuel (lighter than air) than diesel (heavier).

However in the scenario of a crash/derailment in a long tunnel I would be more worried.

 

[Harpers Tate]

But where does the hydrogen come from?

I can't speak specifically for this hydrogen, but a hydrogen refuelling unit not far from here runs solely from a windmill on the site.

 

[High Dyke]

Geographical error now corrected by the BBC

The prototype, called the Hydroflex, made a 25-mile round trip through Warwickshire and Worcestershire, reaching speeds of up to 50 mph.

 

[43096]

Annoyingly, I reckon some of those lightly used, longer branch lines would be more cheaply served with full electrification. I think there's an unfortunate but understandable tendency to budget electrifying some branch lines with conventional UK Master Series catenary, when a more bespoke, lower cost electrification system might be best utilised.

In that case we should get the wires up and not pursue costly hydrogen options.

 

[ABB125]

In that case we should get the wires up and not pursue costly hydrogen options.

For a moment I thought this was a comment made by GRALISTAIR!
Sensible idea though.

 

[102 fan]

Not alone, but possibly misplaced. Much better to be in a crash with hydrogen fuel (lighter than air) than diesel (heavier).

I'd take diesel over hydrogen any day. Remember Hindenburg?