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Hydroflex - testing

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oglord

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The BBC did make a bit of a blooper over the geography. Turns out the county boundary is at the Long Marston gate, so pretty much all the trip was in Worcestershire! Anyway they did interview the engineers before the inevitable politician, so I will forgive them.
I won't. The boundary to which you refer is an administrative boundary. Long Marston itself is in Gloucestershire, then the line to Evesham enters Worcestershire. At no part is it in Warwickshire!
 
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Northhighland

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Posting opinions as facts - which is what you have done - doesn’t make me definitively wrong.


I feel you haven’t a clue as to what I think. Electrification is the answer wherever possible as it is fuel source independent: as long as we can generate electricity from whatever source, an electric railway can operate. As for Inverness, if the Germans can make a case for Munich-Lindau wiring, north of Perth ought to be justifiable.

We live in the UK not Germany. The economics are different for a start. If we can't deliver value for money electrification projects already live projects then hard to see how you think Perth to Inverness stands much of a chance.

My point is why write off a new technology still being developed when it clearly has the potential to be part of the solution on decarbonisation.
 

Domh245

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No one's really mentioned freight. There are many built up areas that see not insignificant numbers of diesel hauled freight trains travel through even though the lines themselves may be fully electrified. I've often wondered what impact this has on local air quality.

The TDNS rules out the prospect of hydrogen for freight, primarily because there aren't any existing examples. The 'endgame' is for freight to be all electric, possibly with battery last-mile

Freight can't(/won't) switch away from diesel until there's enough of the network electrified
 

Bringback309s

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Whats happening with the 321 / class 600 project and now the class 314 project? Mucking about with a 314 seems a bit daft when there are acres of 321's coming up and more likely to see hydrogen conversions long term. Do we need three separate hydrogen projects, would it not be better for everyone to plough their expertise into just one big project?
 

reddragon

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What I have learnt from transitioning towards a CO2 free life, is that you take on the easy wins and best financial returns first and wait for the bigger challenges to become smaller ones.

The latest Million mile LPF batteries could convert most DMU services in the UK to electric / battery hybrids easily. We are just dragging our feet.

Freight locos are a no go for now by battery or Hydrogen. Hydrogens calorific value, explosiveness and challenges will never go away, but batteries are doubling in watts per Kilo every 18 month and the price for kWh halves. Realistically we would have to go to freight multiple units to convert.
 

43096

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It takes 3-4 times as much energy to create Hydrogen than it does to charge a battery.
Hydrogen has a much lower energy density that oil
So hydrogen is low efficiency and batteries have a short range (albeit improving).

Neither are going to make a significant contribution to de-carbonisation as they are at the margins of usefulness on the railway. Keep saying it, but by far the best solution is electrification, not whichever flavour of bionic duckweed is currently in vogue.

Get the wires up.
 

Philip Phlopp

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My point is why write off a new technology still being developed when it clearly has the potential to be part of the solution on decarbonisation.

There are small performance gains to be made in hydrogen systems, but unless I'm mistaken, there's a hard physical limit to how much electricity you can make those little hydrogen molecules make when they're in a fuel cell, and there's a similar hard physical limit as to how much energy you need to put into water when undertaking electrolysis, to split those hydrogen molecules from the oxygen molecules. It's further complicated by the argument on what pressure do you store your hydrogen at, 350bar or 700bar, because there's efficiency losses (heat, at least) as you pump to ever higher pressures, but that's potentially offset by other gains.

It's the same hard physical limits you have with batteries - there is only so much electricity 1kg of a battery electrode can hold.

With regards to Perth to Inverness electrification, on much firmer ground here, it's a relatively easy project and will be relatively inexpensive per stkm - only point of concern at this early stage would be around Killiecrankie and some of those odd structures like Tilt Viaduct which might need a little fettling.
 

reddragon

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So hydrogen is low efficiency and batteries have a short range (albeit improving).

Neither are going to make a significant contribution to de-carbonisation as they are at the margins of usefulness on the railway. Keep saying it, but by far the best solution is electrification, not whichever flavour of bionic duckweed is currently in vogue.

Get the wires up.

Batteries DO work already and are economical where diesel trains run under the wires with short excursions away and on low use rural lines.

OLE will always win on busy lines, long distance and heavy use trains even if only on parts of that route.

It's the same hard physical limits you have with batteries - there is only so much electricity 1kg of a battery electrode can hold.

Agree, but we are some way off of that battery density limit, whereas there is nowhere for Hydrogen to go as its energy density is rather fixed
 

D7666

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Whats happening with the 321 / class 600 project and now the class 314 project? Mucking about with a 314 seems a bit daft when there are acres of 321's coming up and more likely to see hydrogen conversions long term. Do we need three separate hydrogen projects, would it not be better for everyone to plough their expertise into just one big project?


314 is a test rig.

It was the available stock at the time. 321s were not - and at the moment still are not - available. They need to get on a trial things now.

All they are doing is prototyping the gubbins, in what is on hand now, for possible use in any type of future conversion, it's not a plan to create a squadron of 314H2s, or any other Pep type unit - e.g. 315s go for scrap.

As for three different projects, you need competiton for innovation.
 

43096

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Batteries DO work already and are economical where diesel trains run under the wires with short excursions away and on low use rural lines.
Although for short excursions beyond the wires we should be looking at the relative benefits of carting around batteries under the wires (and the additional cost of doing so) and the cost of battery fitted micro-fleets versus the cost of putting up the wires on the extra mileage.
 

reddragon

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Although for short excursions beyond the wires we should be looking at the relative benefits of carting around batteries under the wires (and the additional cost of doing so) and the cost of battery fitted micro-fleets versus the cost of putting up the wires on the extra mileage.

Class 800/802s and 755s already cart around diesel power trains most of the time, and many DMUs cart the it around all the time under wires!
 

BRX

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The TDNS rules out the prospect of hydrogen for freight, primarily because there aren't any existing examples. The 'endgame' is for freight to be all electric, possibly with battery last-mile

Freight can't(/won't) switch away from diesel until there's enough of the network electrified
They seem to be attempting a hydrogen loco in Poland

 

GRALISTAIR

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As a proving exercise of fitting a hydrogen fuel cell into a train, this is certainly interesting. Generation and utilisation processes will get far more efficient with time...

As far as storage on-board goes and safety - tanks would doubtless be mounted on the roof rather than in a raft on the underside. This dewign was used on hydrogen powered buses - and having worked with and handled similar storage tanks containing pure oxygen (trust me, you really don't want that leaking) they take a hell of a lot of punishment.

Surely then you would be back to raising bridges and lowering track in tunnels - so might as well electrify if you are going to do that anyway.
 

reddragon

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They seem to be attempting a hydrogen loco in Poland


So, they are producing Hydrogen in an oil refinery . . . . . . . let that sink in, and replacing diesel tanks with hydrogen tanks with significantly less range!

So unless there is a serious tax dodge, the fuel costs 4x as much per mile!
 

DerekC

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I won't. The boundary to which you refer is an administrative boundary. Long Marston itself is in Gloucestershire, then the line to Evesham enters Worcestershire. At no part is it in Warwickshire!

Entirely off the point (sorry mods) and not worth a thread - but interestingly the Wikishire map you linked to shows what I think must be the pre-1933 boundaries, when Long Marston was indeed in Gloucestershire. A little manipulation of the ONS map you linked to brings up the current boundaries which are per the OS map I consulted and confirm that Long Marston is now in Warwickshire! Doesn't excuse the BBC, however!!
 

norbitonflyer

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Indeed it was actually conceived as as Helium ship, but the Americans (as holder of most of the world’s supply) wouldn’t sell it to the Germans.
The intention, as I read it, was to use an inner gas bag of hydrogen and an outer one of helium. The hydrogen, being cheaper, would be vented as required to adjust height. The conversion to use only hydrogen required it to be ballasted to compensate for the extra lift.

The Hindenburg was not the world's deadliest airship disaster. The R101 cost 48 lives, and the USS Akron, (a helium filled airship) crashed in a storm, killing 73 servicemen.

the Wikishire map you linked to shows what I think must be the pre-1933 boundaries,

Older than that, as not only does it show Middlesex, but that county extends all the way to Blackwall and the Isle of Dogs (no County of London), making it pre-1889
 
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reddragon

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But the fuel produces no CO2 when burnt, you capture the carbon at the refinery where it is easy to do so..

Ignoring the fact that nobody has yet successfully done so!

But materials to contain it, fire protection systems et cetera have changed. I doubt an hydrogen train would have big floppy gas bags on it like a zeppelin.
Ha ha, but still a complex system and tanks that hold less fuel, that currently takes a whole coach
 

birchesgreen

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Ha ha, but still a complex system and tanks that hold less fuel, that currently takes a whole coach

True i'm not saying its the future (yet) but i do find it interesting technology. There is going to be a lot of development into hydrogen as a motor fuel this decade so the sort of gains made by batteries could also happen there too.
 

Class 170101

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So, they are producing Hydrogen in an oil refinery . . . . . . . let that sink in, and replacing diesel tanks with hydrogen tanks with significantly less range!

So unless there is a serious tax dodge, the fuel costs 4x as much per mile!

But the fuel produces no CO2 when burnt, you capture the carbon at the refinery where it is easy to do so..

But unless I am being thick here surely the idea is to stop burning fossil fuels including oil - which itself produces CO2....
 

Fincra5

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But unless I am being thick here surely the idea is to stop burning fossil fuels including oil - which itself produces CO2....

Yes but in the meantime might as well try and use a (sort of) by-product of the Oil Refining process to power a train or similar...

Worth remembering Oil is used in a lot besides fuel.. so using actual Oil isn't going away anytime soon...

I'm sure in the end the idea is to get Hydrogen as cleanly as possible.
 

DerekC

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So hydrogen is low efficiency and batteries have a short range (albeit improving).

Neither are going to make a significant contribution to de-carbonisation as they are at the margins of usefulness on the railway. Keep saying it, but by far the best solution is electrification, not whichever flavour of bionic duckweed is currently in vogue.

Get the wires up.

It wires were cheap there wouldn't be any argument, but they aren't - that's the whole point. And by the way, Roger Ford should have patented bionic duckweed because microbial biomass conversion is a serious long term possibility.
 

kieron

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Older than that, as not only does it show Middlesex, but that county extends all the way to Blackwall and the Isle of Dogs (no County of London), making it pre-1889
I don't think that map is drawn to reflect any particular date. It's just whatever made sense to the person compiling it. If you want to check something, a map from the relevant period is likely to be more reliable. For Long Marston, Vision of Britain gives it as having been in Gloucestershire continuously between 1801 (when their records start) and 1974.
 

THC

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I won't. The boundary to which you refer is an administrative boundary. Long Marston itself is in Gloucestershire, then the line to Evesham enters Worcestershire. At no part is it in Warwickshire!

Long Marston has not been a part of Gloucestershire since 1931 when it was transferred to Warwickshire. I suspect you know that already.


THC
 

reddragon

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Kingspanner

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Ignoring the fact that nobody has yet successfully done so!


Au Contraire. Developments in Carbon Capture and Storage can be obtained from the horse's mouth here http://www.ccsassociation.org/. This is the website of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association, which you won't be surprised to learn represents players in that industry. Their weekly newsletter is an interesting read.
 

158756

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A lot of 'hope' driven by the fossil industry?

Its recent low-emissions technology statement forecast the cheapest way to produce it in the short-term might be to use gas or “coal gasification” with carbon capture and storage (CCS).

A desperate attempt by the Australian coal industry to remain relevant.

Why do we need hydrogen? With the amount of electricity needed to produce 'green' hydrogen you'd be better off just using it to charge batteries, even before thinking about the lack of infrastructure and safety concerns.
 

reddragon

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Au Contraire. Developments in Carbon Capture and Storage can be obtained from the horse's mouth here http://www.ccsassociation.org/. This is the website of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association, which you won't be surprised to learn represents players in that industry. Their weekly newsletter is an interesting read.

Surprise surprise, all oil, gas & mining interests!

But again reading more independent sources are far less enthusiastic about it!
 
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