[Hypothetical] Ticket inspections outside station premises/boundary?

[js1000]

Just curious and would be interested in hearing peoples' thoughts as to what powers (indeed, if any) RPI's have in relation to questioning or challenging a passenger who have left a station but on which they have been stopped or questioned on public land? By public land I mean not privately owned land (by Network Rail) and demonstrated on a Land Registry plan with a defined boundary. We do occasionally come across cases on here whereby the passenger in question says "they were followed out of the station and down the road" which usually receives criticism from posters on here.

I'm curious given that the British Transport Police have reduced powers outside of railway stations and infrastructure which must be justified. Also, I know there are occasional ticket inspections at larger stations with secondary exits to ground level (often defined as 'access' lifts for less mobile passengers) or footbridges (i.e. Sheffield). It's always struck me the legality of these are somewhat questionable. It appears the most they can do is ask "why have you not got a ticket and have travelled today?" and then offer a chance to purchase a ticket if they have travelled (which probably explains why they don't monitor lift as much as they perhaps should do because in many cases it is a grey area.) If there any difference in how TOCs tackle these problems when they encounter passengers using 'access' lifts without a ticket?

I note that the Penalty Fares Regulation state that:
4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.
(3) In paragraph (1) the reference to “an operator” is to the operator of—
(a)the train which the person in question is travelling by, present on or leaving;
(b)the station, where the person in question is present in or leaving a station, having left a train arriving at that station

If you're on public land, not "present in" then you would have been deemed to have already "left" the station and the Penalty Fares Regulations above cease to apply. It would therefore be a matter for investigation by the train company if they suspect wrongdoing/ticket evasion or the police and any attempt to charge a penalty fare would be void? If a member of railway staff attempted to follow or apprehend (in practice unrealistic even if the law states they can) a suspected fare evader who is on public land then this would have be classed under "citizens arrest" first and foremost?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just curious and would be interested in hearing peoples' thoughts as to what powers (indeed, if any) RPI's have in relation to questioning or challenging a passenger who have left a station but on which they have been stopped or questioned on public land? By public land I mean not privately owned land (by Network Rail) and demonstrated on a Land Registry plan with a defined boundary. We do occasionally come across cases on here whereby the passenger in question says "they were followed out of the station and down the road" which usually receives criticism from posters on here.

I'm curious given that the British Transport Police have reduced powers outside of railway stations and infrastructure which must be justified. Also, I know there are occasional ticket inspections at larger stations with secondary exits to ground level (often defined as 'access' lifts for less mobile passengers) or footbridges (i.e. Sheffield). It's always struck me the legality of these are somewhat questionable. It appears the most they can do is ask "why have you not got a ticket and have travelled today?" and then offer a chance to purchase a ticket if they have travelled (which probably explains why they don't monitor lift as much as they perhaps should do because in many cases it is a grey area.) If there any difference in how TOCs tackle these problems when they encounter passengers using 'access' lifts without a ticket?

I note that the Penalty Fares Regulation state that:
4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.
(3) In paragraph (1) the reference to “an operator” is to the operator of—
(a)the train which the person in question is travelling by, present on or leaving;
(b)the station, where the person in question is present in or leaving a station, having left a train arriving at that station

If you're on public land, not "present in" then you would have been deemed to have already "left" the station and the Penalty Fares Regulations above cease to apply. It would therefore be a matter for investigation by the train company if they suspect wrongdoing/ticket evasion or the police and any attempt to charge a penalty fare would be void.

I think the general rule is this. If the RPI etc. sees the person getting off a train that has just pulled in then I don't see why they need stop pursue them once they have left railway property, provided they did initially try to flag them down whilst they were still on railway property and saw it all happen.

If someone has merely left railway property - especially for those with public rights of way through the property - then I think it is highly questionable for RPIs to take on the matter if they do not attempt to do so before the person has left railway property, and/or if the person claims not to have travelled and the RPI did not actually see them leave a train (or have other evidence, e.g. CCTV, that there was no-one present before the arrival of a train).

Whether a particular taking of details, detainment, issuance of a Penalty Fare etc. was incorrect could ultimately only be determined by a Court or the Penalty Fare appeals body.

 

[scrapy]

Regarding BTP whilst their remit does not generally include policing away from the railway, I do not think they actually have reduced powers away from it. Their remit includes policing the railway and it's surroundings which are not clearly defined. I have certainly seen BTP actively patroling and using their powers off railway land for example on the street between the two Wigan stations and in City Square in Leeds. I also know they have gone round to non railway addresses to arrest wanted suspects.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Regarding BTP whilst their remit does not generally include policing away from the railway, I do not think they actually have reduced powers away from it.

They have full powers away from railway land if their activity is railway related. They also have conditional powers, meaning they can have full jurisdiction in certain circumstances. The two major ones I know of are anti-terror and cross-force joint operations. They can also use full powers in another Force's area of responsibility if requested by an officer of that force or authorised by it's Chief Constable.

For example, if they saw you walking out of tesco with arms full of shopping being chased by security, they have no powers of arrest (other than a citizens arrest I suppose.) If they're radioed by local plod and asked to help if they're nearby, they could.
Equally, if you did the same from the M&S on the station, they could chase you as far as required as the crime occurred on the railway.

 

[Bensonby]

They have full powers away from railway land if their activity is railway related. They also have conditional powers, meaning they can have full jurisdiction in certain circumstances. The two major ones I know of are anti-terror and cross-force joint operations. They can also use full powers in another Force's area of responsibility if requested by an officer of that force or authorised by it's Chief Constable.

For example, if they saw you walking out of tesco with arms full of shopping being chased by security, they have no powers of arrest (other than a citizens arrest I suppose.) If they're radioed by local plod and asked to help if they're nearby, they could.
Equally, if you did the same from the M&S on the station, they could chase you as far as required as the crime occurred on the railway.

Since the 2003 Railways and Transport Safety Act they can have “spontaneous jurisdiction” when needed outside of, and not in connection with, the railway.

See here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Transport_Police#Powers_and_status_of_officers

 

[PeterC]

They have full powers away from railway land if their activity is railway related. They also have conditional powers, meaning they can have full jurisdiction in certain circumstances. The two major ones I know of are anti-terror and cross-force joint operations. They can also use full powers in another Force's area of responsibility if requested by an officer of that force or authorised by it's Chief Constable.

For example, if they saw you walking out of tesco with arms full of shopping being chased by security, they have no powers of arrest (other than a citizens arrest I suppose.) If they're radioed by local plod and asked to help if they're nearby, they could.
Equally, if you did the same from the M&S on the station, they could chase you as far as required as the crime occurred on the railway.

Do they have restrictions on their powers of arrest different from any officer of a territorial force seeing a crime happen acros the county boundary? AIUI an officer of another force has full powers if s/he encounters an arrestable offence.

For a non BTP example a patrol on a dual carriageway may cross the county boundary to turn back at the next exit. While over the boundary they can't give you a speeding ticket but they can, for example, step in to stop a fight.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Do they have restrictions on their powers of arrest different from any officer of a territorial force seeing a crime happen acros the county boundary? AIUI an officer of another force has full powers if s/he encounters an arrestable offence.

For a non BTP example a patrol on a dual carriageway may cross the county boundary to turn back at the next exit. While over the boundary they can't give you a speeding ticket but they can, for example, step in to stop a fight.

I think I've been corrected above, reference to "spontaneous jurisdiction"

 

[Stigy]

Do they have restrictions on their powers of arrest different from any officer of a territorial force seeing a crime happen acros the county boundary? AIUI an officer of another force has full powers if s/he encounters an arrestable offence.

For a non BTP example a patrol on a dual carriageway may cross the county boundary to turn back at the next exit. While over the boundary they can't give you a speeding ticket but they can, for example, step in to stop a fight.

BTP have all the powers of a constable where ever they are (even dealing with road traffic act offences if they need to) and as far as I’m aware, an officer from any country force has full powers even out of their county. Naturally BTP will pass anything they need to to the respective county force to investigate if it comes to that, as the county force would do if they make an arrest on the railway. BTP also wouldn’t go out to deal with issues off the railway as the railway is their bread and butter, so why would they?. The exception to the rule I believe is the special constabulary, as specials only have powers within their force’s own county (or it was like this until very recently). The exception to this are BTP specials who obviously aren’t bound by county.

The exception to all of this is Scotland I believe, as they have different legislation which I believe restricts cross-border authority.

Regarding railway staff operating off railway land; there’s no restriction in their powers as long as the offence occurred on the railway of course, however in my view it’s not good practice to operate off railway land not least for their own safety (lack of CCTV and other staff support - if it goes pear shaped I’d imagine the company would wash their hands if the situation for example). Also, if uncertain if an offence had occurred, a member of the public could just deny ever travelling and walk off (do they know a person had travelled on a train? Surely even if they have, it’s feasible they threw their ticket away on the way out in to the public highway?).

 

[Llanigraham]

Do they have restrictions on their powers of arrest different from any officer of a territorial force seeing a crime happen acros the county boundary? AIUI an officer of another force has full powers if s/he encounters an arrestable offence.

For a non BTP example a patrol on a dual carriageway may cross the county boundary to turn back at the next exit. While over the boundary they can't give you a speeding ticket but they can, for example, step in to stop a fight.

Sorry, but they can and they do.

 

[Tom B]

The situation in Scotland is different in so far as that all the forces have merged into one. A few years ago I was talking to a BTP constable who was on a particular (then) NXEC service which apparently was known for rowdiness (1230 EDB-KGX). Apparently there are certain differences in the offences for which someone can be arrested between English and Scottish law, and on trains which are north of Berwick, Scottish laws apply.

 

[Stigy]

The situation in Scotland is different in so far as that all the forces have merged into one. A few years ago I was talking to a BTP constable who was on a particular (then) NXEC service which apparently was known for rowdiness (1230 EDB-KGX). Apparently there are certain differences in the offences for which someone can be arrested between English and Scottish law, and on trains which are north of Berwick, Scottish laws apply.

It’s not necessarily that all forces are one in Scotland now (in fact, BTP are no longer being amalgamated I believe?), it’s that Scottish legislation doesn’t allow much in the way of cross-border working.

 

[najaB]

in fact, BTP are no longer being amalgamated I believe?

That is correct.

 

[island]

In Scotland they have the all-purpose offence of breach of the peace.

 

[GEM08]

Surely the point here isn’t to do with their powers but more to do with an individuals legal obligation. If someone asks and individual who is not at a train station to provide a copy of their ticket the individual has no obligation to do so as I do not believe there is a legal requirement on someone to retain a ticket as soon as they have left a barrier / station.....or not as far as I am aware.

 

[talltim]

Are there any parallels between RPIs and shop security guards? I’ve seen them chase and apprehend shoplifters off their premises.

 

[najaB]

If someone asks and individual who is not at a train station to provide a copy of their ticket the individual has no obligation to do so as I do not believe there is a legal requirement on someone to retain a ticket as soon as they have left a barrier / station.....or not as far as I am aware.

Very strictly speaking, since a ticket remains the property of the railway you have an obligation to keep it safe until and unless the railway tells you that it no longer wants it.

 

[Stigy]

Are there any parallels between RPIs and shop security guards? I’ve seen them chase and apprehend shoplifters off their premises.

I’m no expert in shop security, however I’d imagine any arrests or detentions made in relation to shoplifting at done on the grounds of staff using their “any person powers” (formally citizen’s arrest) as theft would fall in to the category where this is allowed.

The railway uses its own legislation, separate to any person powers of arrest (RRA 1889 for example).

 

[Stigy]

Very strictly speaking, since a ticket remains the property of the railway you have an obligation to keep it safe until and unless the railway tells you that it no longer wants it.

Very strictly speaking indeed

I very much doubt any TOCs would want to test this in court

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Very strictly speaking, since a ticket remains the property of the railway you have an obligation to keep it safe until and unless the railway tells you that it no longer wants it.

So again very strictly speaking would that mean you may need to keep your phone clogged up with e-tickets ?

 

[najaB]

So again very strictly speaking would that mean you may need to keep your phone clogged up with e-tickets ?

Ah, that is a good question. I assume not because there's no physical object but IANAL.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Ah, that is a good question. I assume not because there's no physical object but IANAL.

Would it still not be their 'intellectual property' though, so to speak ?

Maybe they could send an e-mail authorising the deletion of the e-ticket once it has expired.

 

[MikeWh]

What about Oyster journey history? Are they satisfied with the 8-week limit provided by TfL? Could this be used as a guide for other types of tickets?

 

[najaB]

Would it still not be their 'intellectual property' though, so to speak ?

Not really. Intellectual property rights pertain to the *idea* contained within a digital file, rather than the file itself.

 

[island]

There is a danger in overthinking things

 

[MassDiscussion]

We have ticket inspectors (not sure which company they work for, they're not wearing SWR uniform) outside Southampton Airport Parkway, which has no barriers. If you're not familiar with the area, there is a multi-story car park on one side of the station and the airport is on the other side. Many airport staff park at the multi-story and cross the railway bridge to get to the airport. The ticket inspectors insist on seeing train tickets, whether you've travelled by train or not! These people are usually in plain clothes with a plain hi-viz jacket. I'm not sure what sort of authority they have, but I dread to think how many innocent people they've tried to fine for not having tickets.

 

[Stigy]

We have ticket inspectors (not sure which company they work for, they're not wearing SWR uniform) outside Southampton Airport Parkway, which has no barriers. If you're not familiar with the area, there is a multi-story car park on one side of the station and the airport is on the other side. Many airport staff park at the multi-story and cross the railway bridge to get to the airport. The ticket inspectors insist on seeing train tickets, whether you've travelled by train or not! These people are usually in plain clothes with a plain hi-viz jacket. I'm not sure what sort of authority they have, but I dread to think how many innocent people they've tried to fine for not having tickets.

These agency staff work for Adecco I believe and aren’t revenue staff therefore cannot Penalty Fare people anyway. Even if the people they’re stopping HAVE travelled by train, unless revenue are there they can’t do anything anyway, other than ask them to buy a ticket.

With an open station such as Southampton Airport Parkway, there’s not much anyone can do if somebody says they’re just crossing the bridge, unless staff have reasonable suspicions that somebody has travelled (and I don’t mean just because they think everybody is guilty) they could look at CCTV etc, but this is very resource intensive. Even with stations that are barriered, I’ve had people claim they haven’t travelled and to be honest, looking at the calibre of some agency staff, I wouldn’t be surprised if they hadn’t so take every instance on its merits.

 

[suzanneparis]

I am confused. Is the point being made that on railway premises RPIs have the same powers as BTP and can arrest passengers without a ticket? Furthermore, if RPIs challenge a passenger before they leave railways premises then RPIs can pursue and arrest a passenger without a ticket who has gone beyond the boundary of the railway premises?

 

[najaB]

Is the point being made that on railway premises RPIs have the same powers as BTP and can arrest passengers without a ticket?

Legally, yes RPIs are allowed to detain passengers who fail to give their name and address if they believe that the passenger is in breach of the law.

In practice they would not.

 

[suzanneparis]

That's interesting. I hadn't realised that they have those powers. Are they allowed to use force to detain a passenger in those circumstances?

 

[Stigy]

Legally, yes RPIs are allowed to detain passengers who fail to give their name and address if they believe that the passenger is in breach of the law.

In practice they would not.

Bit more specific than that in that they can only detain if a passenger refuses to give their name and address after not producing a ticket, rather than being in breach of the law in general. But yes, in reality they tend not to exercise this power, and TOCs would never endorse them using it.