IET coupling at Swansea

[Cheeseman]

So, apparently the reason IET sets keep running 5-carriage instead of 10 on the SWA-PAD is that there are certain points on the platform at SWA where the curvature prevents successful coupling of the sets. And this seems to have been going on for ages. Why are they not sorting this out by, in the short term, marking up where exactly the problematic stop points are/aren't so that drivers can line up for successful coupling? The consequences for overcrowding and seat reservations when running half sets are bloody annoying and they really don't seem to care.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why are they not sorting this out by, in the short term, marking up where exactly the problematic stop points are/aren't so that drivers can line up for successful coupling? .

Because it may cause the unit to be foul of points, stopped short, over TPWS grids, Over AWS magnets, or activating a track circuit. Probably other reasons too.

 

[Cheeseman]

Because it may cause the unit to be foul of points, stopped short, over TPWS grids, Over AWS magnets, or activating a track circuit. Probably other reasons too.

Why is it possible some days and not possible other days?
Given that the dimensions of each half-set are identical from day to day, as long as they line up on an agreed mark where there is no conflicting infrastructure then all should be fine.

Otherwise we have to put up with this until platforms are rebuilt. Is there really no reliable interim solution? Seems unlikely to me.

Time for the regulator to introduce a penalty for running short trains?

 

[ainsworth74]

Why is it possible some days and not possible other days?

I would suspect that it may be some platforms that are problematic not all. So when they're in a platform that works its fine and when they're not there's trouble. It could then keep happening as depending on platform allocations and occupations the relevant platforms may not always be available. To fix that will require some significant rejigging.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

This happened the other day (a Saturday) - to a bemused non railway user friend of mine ,I gather they did a shunt out to Maliphant sidings and the sets were successfuly coupled and left about 20 late ...just as well as the service South Wales to London was only hourly due to the Parkway blocks.

I got in in reverse as the 0930 down off Padd was a 5 car only - same problem some hours earlier....

 

[strawbrick]

Why was this problem not discovered earlier?

 

[Cheeseman]

I would suspect that it may be some platforms that are problematic not all. So when they're in a platform that works its fine and when they're not there's trouble. It could then keep happening as depending on platform allocations and occupations the relevant platforms may not always be available. To fix that will require some significant rejigging.

My suspicion too. In which case they need to organise the platform allocations to mitigate this known problem. It really isn't good enough that they haven't implemented a robust procedural work-around.

 

[Cheeseman]

Why was this problem not discovered earlier?

That too. And even if they didn't discover it, why have they not introduced procedures to deal with it?

 

[ainsworth74]

My suspicion too. In which case they need to organise the platform allocations to mitigate this known problem. It really isn't good enough that they haven't implemented a robust procedural work-around.

Oh yeah, assuming that this is the case, they need to try and sort that out. Be re-writing the platform allocation plan for a reasonably busy station like Swansea can take a bit of time. And that assume that the problem is definitely to do with the platform curvature and can definitely be fixed by using specific platforms!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Wasn't the coupling and decoupling of units at stations planned from the start though?
In which case I doubt the platforms have changed (apart from the ones that have had extensions added to them, which IIRC Swansea isn't one of them), so why on earth did we end up with trains that do not match what they were built to do?

ps - I don't want this to turn into an IET bashing thread, and I do think that a lot of the criticisms people put on the IET's are not really fair. But in this case, if the new trains cannot do something that was planned for them to do from day 1, then that is nuts.

 

[pdeaves]

why on earth did we end up with trains that do not match what they were built to do

I think the question is more 'why on earth did we end up with trains that were not built to do what they were required to do?'.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not uncommon for issues to be found out when operating starts ! (HST's were fixed formation and only spit / coupled on depots - and then with simple couplings and jumpers) - mechanical coupling of even the 15x/32x etc vehicles is fairly straightforward , but the electrical "stud" connections can be a bit sensitive - and this was discovered (even in Wales) when the 150's came in the mid 1980's.

Ergo IET introduction has thrown up issues , I am sure it can be sorted operationally , if not functionally....

 

[mmh]

Why do they couple / uncouple at Swansea?

 

[krus_aragon]

Why do they couple / uncouple at Swansea?

Presumably to swap between 5-car operation off-peak and 10-car operation during the peak?

 

[PHILIPE]

Why do they couple / uncouple at Swansea?

It is the Carmarthen services that join/split at Swansea

 

[Siemens Staines]

It can also occur when a down train from Paddington is a 5-car and a second unit from Maliphant (if one is available) is added to make the return train a 10-car. For example the 1345 from Paddington has just departed as a 5-car, so possibly a second unit will be added later for the 1729 Swansea - Paddington which is a busy train at Cardiff, but not if there is no spare unit or no spare driver.

 

[Envoy]

Surely, the eastward platforms would be the ones with the least curvature and therefore the ones that would be the most successful for couplings? I note that the west Wales to Manchester trains will eventually be 5 coaches east of Swansea but only 2 coaches west of Swansea. I sure hope that they make sure that the new trains can couple & un-couple efficiently on these curved platforms. (The reason for having shorter trains west of Swansea is because west Wales is less populated. They also need short trains due to the fact that west of Whitland you have 3 different branches). Swansea station:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.626029,-3.9397402,308m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

 

[Crossover]

Swansea also has the added complication that not all platforms have tanking facilities (for refresh of water supplies, that is) so that will presumably also be a deciding factor in some of the platforming decisions

 

[trebor79]

My guess is that they've been designed to modern standards which largely preclude curved platforms. So an (incorrect) design assumption may have been made that all coupling activity would take place on straight track. Perhaps someone forgot that most of the infrastructure isn't to modern standards.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Surely, the eastward platforms would be the ones with the least curvature and therefore the ones that would be the most successful for couplings? I note that the west Wales to Manchester trains will eventually be 5 coaches east of Swansea but only 2 coaches west of Swansea. I sure hope that they make sure that the new trains can couple & un-couple efficiently on these curved platforms. (The reason for having shorter trains west of Swansea is because west Wales is less populated. They also need short trains due to the fact that west of Whitland you have 3 different branches). Swansea station:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.626029,-3.9397402,308m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Tbh, maybe I am being naive, but those platforms do not look that curved. Certainly nothing compared to Temple Meads.

 

[jamesst]

I don't think there's a unit out there that doesn't occasionally have trouble coupling/ uncoupling on platforms with even slight curves

 

[fgwrich]

I suspect the next station we will see similar issues thrown up with the coupling / uncoupling of IETs could be Bristol Temple Meads - With the proposed splitting / joining of the Western services.

 

[Dhassell]

Tbh, maybe I am being naive, but those platforms do not look that curved. Certainly nothing compared to Temple Meads.

The planned splits on the Weston/Taunton bound trains also do not happen. Most of the time the PIS is telling people that the train is formed of 5 coaches, where in fact 5 will be locked out and all 10 will go onwards with all pax in the front 5.

 

[Crossover]

My guess is that they've been designed to modern standards which largely preclude curved platforms. So an (incorrect) design assumption may have been made that all coupling activity would take place on straight track. Perhaps someone forgot that most of the infrastructure isn't to modern standards.

As others have suggested, I don't think it is a new issue as such - I have seen issues with the likes of Pacers/Sprinters coupling at Leeds before now (on the curved sections of track)

 

[hwl]

As others have suggested, I don't think it is a new issue as such - I have seen issues with the likes of Pacers/Sprinters coupling at Leeds before now (on the curved sections of track)

Yep a very old problem with autocouplers especially with electrical connections.

 

[Greenback]

Mrs Greenback and I went for my first train trip since my illness a few months ago. It was just a little Sunday jaunt to Swansea and back. To my delight, a new IEP 10 carriage train turned up for the return journey. We were instructed to board the front five coaches and when we alighted at Llanelli there were 5 coaches. So it is definitely possible

 

[PHILIPE]

Mrs Greenback and I went for my first train trip since my illness a few months ago. It was just a little Sunday jaunt to Swansea and back. To my delight, a new IEP 10 carriage train turned up for the return journey. We were instructed to board the front five coaches and when we alighted at Llanelli there were 5 coaches. So it is definitely possible

Nice to see you back in the fold following your illness and hoping for an improvement in your health.

 

[Roger100]

Yep a very old problem with autocouplers especially with electrical connections.

Possibly the same at Hartlepool. The first train of the day from Newcastle is a pair of Pacers (or a Pacer and Sprinter) which divides and the rear half goes back north again. They seem to do this well up the platform rather than the usual place that the 2-car trains stop,

 

[Pacerpilot]

A couple of points to note.

You can't change the coupling point on the platform. The 10 car IET only just fits at Swansea and movement further back and you'd be starting beyond the signal.

The units spilt/attach at Swansea as 9/10 sets do not fit at Carmarthen.

You're limited to Platforms 1,2 and 3 for IETs. P4 is restricted to 3 car units Max in passenger service due to the state of the platform surface. It's being rebuilt shortly.

The coupling reliability has increased massively of late. The coupling procedure has been modified for Swansea and there are Hitachi engineers present at the time of coupling to assist with any faults

 

[krus_aragon]

A couple of points to note.

You can't change the coupling point on the platform. The 10 car IET only just fits at Swansea and movement further back and you'd be starting beyond the signal.

The units spilt/attach at Swansea as 9/10 sets do not fit at Carmarthen.

You're limited to Platforms 1,2 and 3 for IETs. P4 is restricted to 3 car units Max in passenger service due to the state of the platform surface. It's being rebuilt shortly.

The coupling reliability has increased massively of late. The coupling procedure has been modified for Swansea and there are Hitachi engineers present at the time of coupling to assist with any faults

Informative and interesting, thank you.

I'd be interested to know what underlying issues were at fault, and/or what modifications have been made to overcome the issue if you're able to share.