If you took over East Midlands Trains, what would you do?

[Camden]

The proposed Liverpool to Leicester (possibly Corby/Kettering in my idea above) via Crewe and Stoke is additional to, rather than a replacement for, the Liverpool to Norwich.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't think that can be said. There are very few trains that currently run, on a line which had been closed for yonks, which is useless for commuting. Those three things together mean that there is nothing to be gleaned about the potential from current services.

Hourly Corby and Oakham to Leicester could potentially be very useful to develop commuter flows into Leicester, opening up more job opportunities and developing the regional economy. Effectively doubling the service between Kettering and Corby/Leicester would also do much to increase the viability of commuting by rail from there too. Oakham also is home to a decent school, which some families in Corby might be interested in sending their children to. Having both London and Leicester-bound connectivity would increase the viability/attractiveness of Corby as a place to live, which is part of a national objective of encouraging growth outside of London.

After a few years of operation, I would expect Corby station in particular to be well used for both directions. In future years, perhaps it might even help build the case for rebuilding/electrifying northwards to Peterborough.

In the first few years yes it would need to bed in. People don't start using things like this overnight, it takes time to build up the market. That is why I say joined-up thinking, in making it effectively an "add-on" to a Liverpool to Leicester service. This is something which is officially wanted, but having a unit idling at Leicester station is likely to be a stumbling block. It also needs to be diesel to traverse the route it needs to.

Not only would a Liverpool to Kettering via Leicester and Corby solve this issue, but it would also provide a head-start on building that southern end market by providing far better connectivity than Corby to Melton Mowbray as part of a service which on day one is likely to be hugely popular over over parts of the line. Reversing at Leicester to get to Corby might seem illogical, but it's exactly what happens further up north, and it provides a direct service. One small compromise for a lot of gain.

I gather you don't know Corby very well. !!

 

[DanTrain]

The proposed Liverpool to Leicester (possibly Corby/Kettering in my idea above) via Crewe and Stoke is additional to, rather than a replacement for, the Liverpool to Norwich.

Could even go Liv - Runcorn - Chester - Crewe - Stoke - Derby - Melton Mowbray - Oakham - Corby. It risks becoming an everywhere service though, it would already have to reverse at Derby, adding in Chester, Leicester and Notts all bring in another reversal (or we chuck them all in, it would end up facing the same direction!) Otherwise I think it’s a great idea if the demand (and the paths) are there

 

[Steveoh]

I would like to see an earlier train to Sheffield from East Midlands Parkway to open up journeys to the north. Currently the first train at 7:29 follows the Birmingham service to Edinburgh. If there was an earlier train or if the two paths could be swapped between Derby and Sheffield then there would be multiple extra journey opportunities. It would help me at least..

 

[Camden]

I gather you don't know Corby very well. !!

I know it well enough to know that it could do with a boost of connectivity to link its population with career opportunities in bigger cities.

 

[43074]

Could even go Liv - Runcorn - Chester - Crewe - Stoke - Derby - Melton Mowbray - Oakham - Corby. It risks becoming an everywhere service though, it would already have to reverse at Derby, adding in Chester, Leicester and Notts all bring in another reversal (or we chuck them all in, it would end up facing the same direction!) Otherwise I think it’s a great idea if the demand (and the paths) are there

How much money are you trying to make this service lose? No denying it there's a need for better links between the East Midlands and Manchester/the North West but for gods sake at least suggest something that might actually work.

Also, the people on here suggesting more services between Corby - Oakham - Melton clearly don't know the area, as long as connections are adequate to and with other services at Kettering, Leicester and/or Peterborough - which generally is the case - that is what is required. It's relatively sparsely populated around there so I'd suggest the only reason EMT run north of Corby is to maintain route knowledge for when the Mainline is shut. There are more important places to consider developing services in the Midlands, for instance I would implement a 90 minute journey time between Nottingham and London, a standard pattern timetable in Lincolnshire and a more frequent service between Leicester & Birmingham if I were running things in the area.

 

[B&I]

Liverpool to Norwich has been discussed to death in several threads, but I don’t think it’s speed (or lack of) is entirely down to the Sheffield reversal (that adds on 15 mins). Liverpool - Crewe - Derby - Notts is a nice idea tbh, but I doubt whether it would be much quicker than Liv - Norwich.

One idea for Liverpool - Norwich would be to split it, and sort of as suggested above, it could run Liverpool - Nottingham as a 4 or 6 car unit (ideally a 170/185) and then run Norwich to Leeds/Bradford, which would replace the current Nottingham to Leeds (or supplement it if the capacity is there).

There's no point trying to route anything else down the Hope Valley, it's at capacity, and any new capacity is slipping into the future and may well be nabbed by TPE, so I doubt a Manchester - London via Chesterfield service would ever make it past the crayon stage (and if it did it would have to call at Sheffield, otherwise it would only be providing Manchester to Derby and Leicster, which I doubt justifies a service on such congested lines).

It's not just the Sheffield reversal, I think. It's the whole journey to and from Sheffield, which seems to me much less direct than going via Crewe. The Loberpool-Norwich service as is shows what happens when you try to out too many eggs into one basket, service-wise.

Splitting the service at Nottingham seems to me the worst of both worlds - keepimg the current painfully slow route, adding on more time to the journey beyond there by requiring a change, and redcuing the number of places with a direct connection. Liverpool is already England's worst-connected city by size, after Bradford.

As for the capacity issues, well, one thing I would do if I was in charge of EMT (or any other franchise) is lobby for something to be done about them, so we have enough services to meet demand and encourage more people out of cars.

 

[Camden]

The existing Liverpool - Norwich route is alright in terms of Liverpool to Manchester, Manchester to Sheffield, Sheffield to Nottingham, and so on, and I agree there is little to be gained by splitting it.

An additional Liverpool to East Midlands via Crewe and Stoke would be to create a commuter line into Liverpool from Stoke, business connections to further afield, creating a faster route to the east midlands as well as a capacity relief.

I find the comment above about "more services between Corby - Oakham - Melton" interesting. At present, there are as good as none! Anyone would think we were talking about creating a metro, rather than one train an hour, connecting in the region of 700k people, tacked on to something which is already a good idea!

How much money are you trying to make this service lose? No denying it there's a need for better links between the East Midlands and Manchester/the North West but for gods sake at least suggest something that might actually work

I agree that the idea of going via Chester would be a bit much, especially given the purpose of the route, but to be clear also the route is Liverpool to Leicester via Stoke. Manchester doesn't come into it.

 

[mattmtfc]

1tph cleethorpes Grimsby town habrough barnetby market rasen Lincoln Newark Northgate Newark Castle Nottingham Beeston Long Eaton Derby Burton Tamworth Birmingham.

1tph Lincoln Hykeham Collingham Newark Castle Fiskerton Lowdham Carlton Nottingham Beeston East Midlands Parkway Loughborough Leicester Nuneaton Coventry.

1tph Lincoln hykeham swinderby Collingham Newark Castle rolleston fiskerton bleasby thurgarton lowdham Burton Joyce Carlton Nottingham.

1tph skeg Boston sleaford Nottingham Beeston Long Eaton Derby Burton Tamworth Birmingham.

1tph Skegness all stations to Nottingham.

1tph worksop cresswell shirebrook Mansfield workhouse Mansfield kirkby hucknall Nottingham.

1tph worksop to Nottingham all stations. 1tph Nottingham to Crewe.

1tph Nottingham to Birmingham via castle donnington. Matlock to Birmingham all stations.

Nottingham to Liverpool/Blackpool split at manchester.

 

[jhy44]

Delayed response to this, but:

XC aren't going to miss Derby out. It offers them more revenue and better connections to the wider network than serving Nottingham with a faster train. How, for instance do you pose to accommodate any passengers form SW of Birmingham wishing to go to Derby or points north?

Are you confused?
XC run three trains per hour between Birmingham and Derby, two per hour Bristol - Sheffield, one per hour Cardiff - Nottingham. Diverting the Cardiff-Nottingham away from Derby still gives people from SW of Birmingham 2tph to 'Derby and Points North'. So that is how I propose those passengers are 'accommodated for'.

Got you - your argument is that the suggested idea suits your needs and everyone else can go hang.

Again, not at all. No one from Derby or 'points heading north' who head south to Birmingham and beyond boards the Nottingham-originating service, as there is a much faster Sheffield-originating departing just minutes before.

I'm not the only Nottingham-Birmingham commuter, as the two largest cities in the Midlands, there are many, many people who make this journey on a regular basis, have you ever had to do this commute? Speak to some of the passengers and ask what they think of it. You're making out like this is some crazed non-sensical plan that only benefits me and would make the lives of every single other traveller horrendously inconvenient.

Based on your logic of everything having to stop at Derby for 'connectivity', and to hell with anyone wanting a fast journey, I suppose you'd also support every single Virgin WC train stopping at Rugby too? Who cares if people from Glasgow want a fast journey to London, or if Rugby already has enough fast trains to London, it's a 'major connectivity point' after all.

 

[DarloRich]

XC run three trains per hour between Birmingham and Derby, two per hour Bristol - Sheffield, one per hour Cardiff - Nottingham. Diverting the Cardiff-Nottingham away from Derby still gives people from SW of Birmingham 2tph to 'Derby and Points North'. So that is how I propose those passengers are 'accommodated for'.

they are often full already. I cant imagine reducing capacity further would be sensible. Where do you propose to put all the passengers displaced from your fast ultra important Nottingham service?

Again, not at all. No one from Derby or 'points heading north' who head south to Birmingham and beyond boards the Nottingham-originating service, as there is a much faster Sheffield-originating departing just minutes before.

no one? wow I guess those people I see boarding at Derby when I do are simply a mirage. No one? What about anyone heading to Wales like I was the other day? Another mirage? Personally i would try and force as many Derby only passengers onto the Nottingham services to give more room on the long distance ones. I would also try and make those Nottingham> Cardiff trains longer!

I'm not the only Nottingham-Birmingham commuter, as the two largest cities in the Midlands, there are many, many people who make this journey on a regular basis, have you ever had to do this commute? Speak to some of the passengers and ask what they think of it. You're making out like this is some crazed non-sensical plan that only benefits me and would make the lives of every single other traveller horrendously inconvenient.

that's exactly what it is - nonsensical. You are suggesting making lots of journeys more inconvenient to offer you a touch more convenience. I also wonder if the lost revenue would be covered by the good burghers of Nottingham travelling to Brum. BTW lets not talk about commuting. However many travel between Nottingham and Birmingham it will pale into insignificance compared to those travelling into London.

Based on your logic of everything having to stop at Derby for 'connectivity', and to hell with anyone wanting a fast journey, I suppose you'd also support every single Virgin WC train stopping at Rugby too? Who cares if people from Glasgow want a fast journey to London, or if Rugby already has enough fast trains to London, it's a 'major connectivity point' after all.

Now you are just being silly and obtuse. Rugby isnt a major connectivity point as I am sure you are aware. Derby offers an interchange between XC & EMT (both main line & local) services and between NE>SW cross country and Wales> Midlands XC services in a much easier manner than New Street.

 

[Starmill]

Are you confused?
XC run three trains per hour between Birmingham and Derby, two per hour Bristol - Sheffield, one per hour Cardiff - Nottingham. Diverting the Cardiff-Nottingham away from Derby still gives people from SW of Birmingham 2tph to 'Derby and Points North'. So that is how I propose those passengers are 'accommodated for'.

Actually, there are four services per hour between Derby and Birmingham. One from the South West to Scotland, one from Reading or Southampton to Newcastle, one from Cardiff Central to Nottingham and one from Birmingham New Street to Nottingham. If I remember correctly there used to be a 5th - it went to Matlock.

no one? wow I guess those people I see boarding at Derby when I do are simply a mirage. No one?

Clearly not nobody, that would be ridiculous. But not a lot of people. Imagine you're travelling from Derby to Birmingham, do you take the xx28 service that is just 35 minutes to Birmingham, or do you catch the train 9 minutes behind that has a 48 minute journey time to Birmingham?

What about anyone heading to Wales like I was the other day? Another mirage? Personally i would try and force as many Derby only passengers onto the Nottingham services to give more room on the long distance ones.

Derby to Newport and Cardiff passengers? Really? Does that flow have more traffic than Nottingham to Birmingham? I don't believe you.

 

[backontrack]

1tph London-Luton Airport Parkway-Kettering-Leicester-Loughborough-Long Eaton-Derby-Belper-Clay Cross-Chesterfield-Sheffield
1tph London-Leicester-Loughborough-East Midlands Parkway-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Barnsley-Wakefield Kirkgate-Leeds
(serving Normanton alternately with New Pudsey & Bradford Interchange, i.e. each gets 1tp2h)
1tph London-Market Harborough-Kibworth-Leicester-Lougborough-Beeston-Nottingham
(continuing every two hours to Hucknall, Sutton Parkway, Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Mansfield and Mansfield Woodhouse)
1tph London-St Albans-Luton-Bedford-Wellingborough-Kettering-Corby-Oakham-Melton Mowbray-Loughborough-East Midlands Parkway-Nottingham

I'd really like to run a service from London to Leicester, than alternate it between Kirkby Muxloe-Desford-Bagworth-Coalville-Ashby-Moira-Burton and South Wigston-Narborough-Hinckley.

 

[43074]

1tph London-Luton Airport Parkway-Kettering-Leicester-Loughborough-Long Eaton-Derby-Belper-Clay Cross-Chesterfield-Sheffield
1tph London-Leicester-Loughborough-East Midlands Parkway-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Barnsley-Wakefield Kirkgate-Leeds
(serving Normanton alternately with New Pudsey & Bradford Interchange, i.e. each gets 1tp2h)
1tph London-Market Harborough-Kibworth-Leicester-Lougborough-Beeston-Nottingham
(continuing every two hours to Hucknall, Sutton Parkway, Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Mansfield and Mansfield Woodhouse)
1tph London-St Albans-Luton-Bedford-Wellingborough-Kettering-Corby-Oakham-Melton Mowbray-Loughborough-East Midlands Parkway-Nottingham

I'd really like to run a service from London to Leicester, than alternate it between Kirkby Muxloe-Desford-Bagworth-Coalville-Ashby-Moira-Burton and South Wigston-Narborough-Hinckley.

Why would you reopen Kibworth and Clay Cross? That's a nice 5 minute time penalty at each one... Also London to Nottingham via Corby would be ridiculous, the focus should be on faster journey times not slowing them down!

 

[ashworth]

Clearly not nobody, that would be ridiculous. But not a lot of people. Imagine you're travelling from Derby to Birmingham, do you take the xx28 service that is just 35 minutes to Birmingham, or do you catch the train 9 minutes behind that has a 48 minute journey time to Birmingham?

I almost always do if I’m going away for a few days and travelling with a small case. I would much rather travel in reasonable comfort with my case close by, which will fit on the overhead rack on a 170. I’ve had experience of travelling on an overcrowded Voyager, sitting cramped up with my case on my knees. If I am travelling to the South West from Nottingham I try to travel at least as far as Cheltenham in comfort and also where I can see that my luggage is safe and secure.
When I travelled to Bristol a few weeks ago I did that by changing at Gloucester onto GWR 158 which also has useable overhead racks. It may take a bit longer but to me it’s worth it for a pleasanter and less stressful journey.

 

[backontrack]

Why would you reopen Kibworth and Clay Cross? That's a nice 5 minute time penalty at each one... Also London to Nottingham via Corby would be ridiculous, the focus should be on faster journey times not slowing them down!

Connectivity. And you could charge cheaper fares too.

 

[43074]

Connectivity. And you could charge cheaper fares too.

But the MML should be focussing on fast city to city connectivity, if you're in Kibworth you have the A6 or there are 4 buses an hour to Leicester and Market Harborough. Meanwhile Clay Cross is a tiny village near Chesterfield. If you were to reopen either you'd stop an all shacks local service there, not the main Sheffield/Nottingham to London services.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Why would you reopen Kibworth and Clay Cross? That's a nice 5 minute time penalty at each one... Also London to Nottingham via Corby would be ridiculous, the focus should be on faster journey times not slowing them down!

I can see justification for reopening both. But agree wouldn't want to stop London trains at them. Clay Cross, which is a town not a village, could be served by Northerns Nottingham to Leeds stopper. Clay Cross has a noticeable rural/ex mining hinterland and a station there would be of use locally for longer distance journeys ie Sheffield & Nottingham, which it has lost its through bus service to in both cases.

 

[muddythefish]

Wishlist and no doubt will be shot down in flames but here goes:

St Pancras - Manchester. 2 hourly. East Midlands - north west direct trains were a regular feature of the MML until the 1980s (?) but are non-existent now as far as I know.

St Pancras - Leeds/ Bradford. 2 hourly.

St Pancras - Glasgow / Edinburgh 2 each way per day via the S & C splitting at Carstairs? Boon for leisure travellers.

Reinstate half hourly service north of Bedford calling at all stations to Derby/Nottingham and speed up express services with fewer stops.

 

[43074]

East Midlands to North West is in dire need of more trains: the road links are pretty shabby so any service avoiding Sheffield would always be reasonably competitive: you could perhaps alternate that one with the Leeds service but realistically Manchester and Leeds are probably the only viable places off the core MML you would want to serve.

Meanwhile I don't get the obsession for through trains from the MML to the S&C, there's a reason the S&C almost closed in the 1980s, nobody used the through trains that ran then and it would be no different now!

 

[whhistle]

Wishlist and no doubt will be shot down in flames but here goes...

You're right
BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG... KABOOM... (flames).

All those trains would have connections from other London stations no more than half a mile away from St Pancras, with better journey times I bet.

More connections to the North West... just not required from London I think.

 

[DarloRich]

Actually, there are four services per hour between Derby and Birmingham. One from the South West to Scotland, one from Reading or Southampton to Newcastle, one from Cardiff Central to Nottingham and one from Birmingham New Street to Nottingham. If I remember correctly there used to be a 5th - it went to Matlock.

ok - apologies - they are still fairly busy whenever I use them ( which is at present several times a week) - my point remains: would removing the capacity offered between Birmingham and Derby by the Nottingham trains be sensible? if so what will replace these seats?

Clearly not nobody, that would be ridiculous. But not a lot of people. Imagine you're travelling from Derby to Birmingham, do you take the xx28 service that is just 35 minutes to Birmingham, or do you catch the train 9 minutes behind that has a 48 minute journey time to Birmingham?

most normal people will get the first direct train offered to them. Those in the know will use the one most likely to offer them a seat. I tend to aim for the Nottingham services to avoid having to use a Voyager but that is just me.

Derby to Newport and Cardiff passengers? Really? Does that flow have more traffic than Nottingham to Birmingham? I don't believe you.

I have no idea but suspect you are right. However, cutting Derby off these services does reduce your travel options from further afield. IF the benefit of offering a direct service to Nottingham outweighs that and offers more money to the operator than so be it.

 

[DarloRich]

Wishlist and no doubt will be shot down in flames but here goes:

St Pancras - Manchester. 2 hourly. East Midlands - north west direct trains were a regular feature of the MML until the 1980s (?) but are non-existent now as far as I know.

St Pancras - Leeds/ Bradford. 2 hourly.

St Pancras - Glasgow / Edinburgh 2 each way per day via the S & C splitting at Carstairs? Boon for leisure travellers.

Reinstate half hourly service north of Bedford calling at all stations to Derby/Nottingham and speed up express services with fewer stops.

prepare to fire! The first three are regular wibblefests for this board and almost pointless.

 

[IanXC]

The Crewe-Derby route idea might have other benefits actually. If the Liverpool went that way, then the existing service (if it were to continue doing at least NOT-SHF-MAN) could terminate at Piccadilly, removing an operator from the Oxford Road corridor, which, much as I hate to say it, would help should a Graylings 'digital signalling solution's come to pass.

 

[Starmill]

As it happens, connections at Derby could well be much better following the Derby resignalling and new platforms later this year. If an extra 'fast' service between Nottingham and Derby were introduced afterwards that could improve connections to CrossCountry services at Derby. I would be very surprised if services were regularly scheduled to avoid Derby though.

 

[backontrack]

Hmm.

1tph Doncaster-Finningley-Gainsborough-Saxilby-Skellingthorpe-Lincoln. I'd want to try to find paths between York and Doncaster to send a train up each way every two hours, and 1tp2h would continue to Peterborough.

1tp2h Nottingham-Netherfield-Bingham-Aslockton-Bottesford-Grantham-Ancaster-Sleaford-Heckington-Boston-Wainfleet-Skegness

1tp2h Nottingham-Netherfield-Bingham-Aslockton-Bottesford-Grantham-Rauceby-Sleaford-Pinchbeck-Spalding-Peakirk-Peterborough

1tp2h Skegness-Wainfleet-Boston-Heckington-Sleaford-Pinchbeck-Spalding-Peakirk-Peterborough

1tph Lincoln-Washingborough-Metheringham-Ruskington-Sleaford-Pinchbeck-Spalding-Peakirk-Peterborough (one of these services would be from Doncaster)

1tph Cleethorpes-all stations to Barton-upon-Humber

1tph Lincoln-Hykeham-Swinderby-Collingham-Newark Castle-all stations to Nottingham-Beeston-all stations to Derby-Duffield-all stations to Matlock

1tph Cleethorpes-Grimsby Docks-Grimsby-Habrough for Immingham-Barnetby-Caistor Road-Market Rasen-Lincoln-Hykeham-Collingham-Newark Castle-Fiskerton for Southwell-Lowdham-Carlton-Nottingham-Beeston-Loughborough-Leicester-Hinckley-Nuneaton-Coleshill Parkway-Birmingham New Street

1tp2h Cleethorpes-Grimsby Docks-Grimsby-Habrough for Immingham-Barnetby-Brigg-Kirton Lindsey-Gainsborough Central-Retford-Worksop-Kiveton Park-Woodhouse-Sheffield-Meadowhall (taking the route from Northern)

1tp2h Cleethorpes-Grimsby-Scunthorpe-Doncaster-Grantham-St Neots-Finsbury Park (sd/po only)-St Pancras

1tp2h Cleethorpes-Grimsby-Barnetby-Market Rasen-Lincoln-Newark Northgate-Grantham-St Neots-Finsbury Park (sd/po only)-St Pancras

1tp2h Birmingham-Coleshill Parkway-Nuneaton-Hinckley-Leicester-East Goscote-Oakham-Stamford-Peterborough-Whittlesea-March-Ely-Cambridge North-Cambridge-Whittlesford and Sawston Parkway-Audley End-Stansted Airport

1tp2h Birmingham-Nuneaton-Leicester-Oakham-Stamford-Peterborough-March-Ely-Lakenheath-Brandon-Thetford-Attleborough-Wymondham-Hethersett-Norwich-Brundall-Oulton Broad North-Lowestoft

1tp2h Liverpool-LSP-Widnes-Warrington Central-Birchwood/Irlam-Manchester Oxford Road-Manchester Piccadilly-Stockport-Chinley-Dore-Sheffield-Chesterfield-Nottingham-Grantham-Peterborough-March-Ely-Thetford-Norwich

1tp2h Liverpool-LSP-Widnes-Warrington Central-Birchwood/Irlam-Manchester Oxford Road-Manchester Piccadilly-Stockport-Chinley-Dore-Sheffield-Chesterfield-Ilkeston-Nottingham-Grantham-Peterborough-March-Ely-Cambridge North-Cambridge-Stansted Airport

1tph Chester-Crewe-Alsager-Kidsgrove-Stoke-all stations to Derby-Long Eaton-Nottingham

1tp2h Nottingham-Hucknall-Kirkby-Sutton-Mansfield-all stations to Worksop-Anston-Dinnington-Maltby-Tickhill-Doncaster

1tp2h Nottingham-Bulwell-Hucknall-Newstead-Kirkby-Sutton-Mansfield-Mansfield Woodhouse-Shirebrook-Warsop-Clipstone & Sherwood-Edwinstowe-Ollerton

1tph Burton-Moira-Ashby-Coalville-Bagworth-Desford-Kirkby Muxloe-Leicester-Syston-Sileby-Barrow-Loughborough-EMP-Nottingham

The stops at Dronfield, Alfreton, Langley Mill and others at Ilkeston would be subsumed into the Northern Bradford-Sheffield service. Northern would also operate a 1tph service between Leeds and Lincoln via Normanton and Sheffield.

 

[A0]

prepare to fire! The first three are regular wibblefests for this board and almost pointless.

I think no. 4 is as well - though the correct answer to that is get the Corby's every half-hour and ensure Kettering becomes the changeover point for passengers wishing to go to Leicester and beyond from between Luton & Kettering.

Kettering to have the half-hourly service to Leicester - perhaps enforced using pick up only (north) and set down only (south).

EMT's 'express' services i.e. from Leicester on only to stop at Kettering and Luton Airport parkway en-route to London.

 

[backontrack]

EMT's 'express' services i.e. from Leicester on only to stop at Kettering and Luton Airport parkway en-route to London.

I suggested that earlier - glad it's caught on

 

[A0]

I suggested that earlier - glad it's caught on

Well it makes sense - providing there's a sub-10 min wait at Kettering - which should be achievable within the constraints of the capacity on the route. Currently the xx:01 Corby stops at Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough arriving at Kettering at xx:59.

The xx:15 to Nottingham runs fast to Market Harborough and passes Kettering at xx:00, if that also stopped at Luton Airport Parkway, you could add 3 mins to the running time and there's your connection at Kettering.

 

[jhy44]

I understand your point about Derby being an important place to change; I'm not denying that, and if there weren't already 2tph to Cheltenham and 3tph to Birmingham then of course, keep the Nottingham stopping at Derby, but the fact there already are these connections means that passengers who need to make connections would still be very well served were the 1tph Nottingham-Cardiff diverted away from Derby.

no one? wow I guess those people I see boarding at Derby when I do are simply a mirage. No one? What about anyone heading to Wales like I was the other day? Another mirage? Personally i would try and force as many Derby only passengers onto the Nottingham services to give more room on the long distance ones. I would also try and make those Nottingham> Cardiff trains longer!

You're right, hoards do board at Derby, but they're not going to Birmingham or Cardiff; they're going to Burton & Tamworth.
I'm not claiming to have done surveys on the train; but using the service 6 times a week you get used to faces and boarding patterns. There are plenty of passengers who do Nottingham-Birmingham but the vast majority of people who board at Derby get off at Burton, with some staying on to Tamworth.

Seat reservation labels are also a good way of seeing the mix of journeys - the vast majority are Nottingham - Birmingham, I don't think I've ever seen one for Derby - Birmingham.

Yes, there will be some Derby - Newport/Cardiff flow, but it's just as quick to change at Parkway than it is to go direct. A 4/5 coach Voyager and then a HST is far less crowded than a 2 coach Turbo (even 3 coaches are a rarity now) which is packed out with local traffic. Any for anyone going West of Cardiff changing at Parkway is just as convenient as then you avoid changing at Cardiff.

In summary, my point is simply that Birmingham & Nottingham being the two largest cities in the Midlands, with a relatively large passenger flow, deserves a proper InterCity service like Birmingham-Bristol, Birmingham-Sheffield etc, the current service is effectively a local stopper which doesn't serve the market well, and I believe the following service change, rolling stock and station capacity permitting, would be an improvement to the Midlands' rail network that I would rate very highly indeed on a list of priorities:

2tph Birmingham-Nottingham local (run by WMR or EMT), creating a half-hourly local:
(Birmingham, Water Orton*, Wilnecote, Tamworth, Burton, Willington, Peartree* Derby, Spondon, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham)

1tph Cardiff-Nottingham express (run by XC):
(.... Birmingham, Tamworth, Burton, Nottingham)
*Subject to upgrade of the Castle Donington line, or a flyover junction south of Derby to allow the train to turn East on the existing line without needing to reverse in Derby station

And then an extension of the Crewe-Derby to Nottingham 1tph to further increase capacity on the Derby-Nottingham line.