Improving rail links to Watford

[Verulamius]

Well I mean its a small branch line so thats quite expected. Maybe if the Abbey Line had a direct connection to Euston maybe there would come more riders.

There is one passenger train a day mid afternoon from Euston to St Albans Abbey. It is used to switch the train on the branch each day.

 

[cle]

It would be a good location to 'string of pearls' a lot of housing development, close to the railways - and if that increased population / commuting demand, it might be more viable to get to 2tph at minimum, and see from there. Might be for St Albans and Watford jobs, but equally could be London/elsewhere too, as the former might be car/bus/bike.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Where, though?

From StA Abbey station to St A centre and the other station, Hatfield, Hertford and then terminating at Harlow bus station (having passed by Harlow Town).

I realise that this is more of a regional light rail scheme and will cost a lot of money, but we need a decent alternative to the M25/A414 for north of London orbital travel, and the Abbey Line could play a useful part in connecting the new tram/light rail line to a major rail interchange.

 

[Verulamius]

It would be a good location to 'string of pearls' a lot of housing development, close to the railways - and if that increased population / commuting demand, it might be more viable to get to 2tph at minimum, and see from there. Might be for St Albans and Watford jobs, but equally could be London/elsewhere too, as the former might be car/bus/bike.

This report from the Centre for Cities think tank on 10 December 2024 proposed various sites for urban development around London. https://www.centreforcities.org/rea...g-iii/identifying-sites-for-urban-extensions/

The area between Watford and St Albans is identified as a potentially developable site.

The model works on the assumption that new settlements need to have good access to jobs and should therefore be within commutable distance by public transport. Train stations within a 30-minute travel time (45-minutes for London) from an ‘entry station’ in the centre of the city are identified.20 Land within a 2-kilometre radius (roughly a 15-minute cycle) of the train station is considered commutable.


This approach takes a static view of the UK’s public transport system. There may be other locations which could be made commutable if train or metro networks were expanded. It also doesn’t account for what train line upgrades may be required in each place to cope with increased demand created by additional housing.

 

[Bald Rick]

From StA Abbey station to St A centre and the other station, Hatfield, Hertford and then terminating at Harlow bus station (having passed by Harlow Town).

If you can identify how to get a segregated light rail system from St Albans Abbey to St Albans City via the city centre (through a conservation area), well you deserve a knighthood.

Such a system to Harolw would be the thick end of £3bn. And I’m afraid people will still drive due to the distributed nature of the economy in Hertfordshire and NW Essex.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you can identify how to get a segregated light rail system from St Albans Abbey to St Albans City via the city centre (through a conservation area), well you deserve a knighthood.

Such a system to Harolw would be the thick end of £3bn. And I’m afraid people will still drive due to the distributed nature of the economy in Hertfordshire and NW Essex.

Tunnel starting just before StA Abbey station, with underground premetro stations in the tunnel, which would run as far as a tunnel portal on the old StA to Hatfield line alignment.
As you pointed out, it wouldn't be cheap, but I claim that knighthood you were offering.

Such a system would be very expensive, but what are the realistic alternatives? A large swathe of the population will never voluntarily set foot on a bus, no matter how much you dress it up with swanky articulation or tram-like bodywork. Guess it means a new road then!

 

[Mgameing123]

There is one passenger train a day mid afternoon from Euston to St Albans Abbey. It is used to switch the train on the branch each day.

But that one runs nonstop from Euston to Watford Junction. I mean an hourly stopper service calling at Bushey, Harrow & Wealdstone & Wembley Central. It could also be an extension of the Croydon service.

 

[Bald Rick]

but what are the realistic alternatives?

The status quo. Which is of course what will happen.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But that one runs nonstop from Euston to Watford Junction. I mean an hourly stopper service calling at Bushey, Harrow & Wealdstone & Wembley Central. It could also be an extension of the Croydon service.

It sounds nice but I'm afraid I still can't see that working. Let's say you have somehow found the money to build a flyover at Watford Junction to get the service onto the LNWR lines at Watford Junction without causing conflicts there, and you've also found an extra path on those lines from Watford to Euston, with sufficient slack to stop at all those stations without delaying the faster LNWR services. Now you have the problem that you're going to want to run at least 8/10 car trains because anything less going into Euston would be a complete waste of badly needed capacity. That means more work on the Abbey line to lengthen the platforms. And are there enough passengers on the Abbey line to run trains that long? Well, I agree that through trains to London would attract more passengers, but if @Bald Rick's statement that current passenger levels would fit on a bus is correct, then you'd need a LOT more passengers. The trouble is you're still only running an hourly service, and that's never going to make the line attractive. AND by running to London, you're potentially importing delays from the WCML onto a what's basically a 6 mile long siding that has little ability to cope with any disruption.

I think you'd get much greater benefit from keeping it a separate line but adding the passing loop necessary to run a half-hourly service and get more passengers from having a more attractive frequency instead.

 

[Mgameing123]

It sounds nice but I'm afraid I still can't see that working. Let's say you have somehow found the money to build a flyover at Watford Junction to get the service onto the LNWR lines at Watford Junction without causing conflicts there, and you've also found an extra path on those lines from Watford to Euston, with sufficient slack to stop at all those stations without delaying the faster LNWR services. Now you have the problem that you're going to want to run at least 8/10 car trains because anything less going into Euston would be a complete waste of badly needed capacity. That means more work on the Abbey line to lengthen the platforms. And are there enough passengers on the Abbey line to run trains that long? Well, I agree that through trains to London would attract more passengers, but if @Bald Rick's statement that current passenger levels would fit on a bus is correct, then you'd need a LOT more passengers. The trouble is you're still only running an hourly service, and that's never going to make the line attractive. AND by running to London, you're potentially importing delays from the WCML onto a what's basically a 6 mile long siding that has little ability to cope with any disruption.

I think you'd get much greater benefit from keeping it a separate line but adding the passing loop necessary to run a half-hourly service and get more passengers from having a more attractive frequency instead.

Alright fine then just extend the Southern service from Croydon to St Albans Abbey. It already has a conflict at Watford.

 

[mr_jrt]

...and indeed, uses the original Abbey line platform!

 

[RT4038]

Alright fine then just extend the Southern service from Croydon to St Albans Abbey. It already has a conflict at Watford.

Are there lots of people wanting to go from How Wood and Park Street to Clapham Junction and Croydon then?

 

[Richardr]

Are there lots of people wanting to go from How Wood and Park Street to Clapham Junction and Croydon then?

And equally are there lots that want to go from such stations to Euston who would take a stopper going all the way as opposed to being willing to change at Watford Junction? Watford Junction is as straight forward as any other station to change platform.

 

[Mgameing123]

And equally are there lots that want to go from such stations to Euston who would take a stopper going all the way as opposed to being willing to change at Watford Junction? Watford Junction is as straight forward as any other station to change platform.

The idea is not for people wanting to go Central London because then it's better to take Thameslink. It's more for people travelling to places like Harrow, Wembley, Westfield etc.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

...and indeed, uses the original Abbey line platform!

I didn't realise it did that. And actually I see Google maps even shows a train in that platform (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/London/@51.6640989,-0.3891401,507a,35y,270h,39.32t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x47d8a00baf21de75:0x52963a5addd52a99!8m2!3d51.5072178!4d-0.1275862!16zL20vMDRqcGw?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDExMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw==).

Didn't that service use to run through to Milton Keynes? Why does it terminate at Watford now, causing a conflicting move there in the process?

 

[A S Leib]

Didn't that service use to run through to Milton Keynes?

Yes; cut back to Hemel post-Covid, then down to two trains per day to Hemel then nothing north of Watford Junction since the last timetable change. I can't remember why it doesn't go further north; reliability?

 

[Mgameing123]

Yes; cut back to Hemel post-Covid, then down to two trains per day to Hemel then nothing north of Watford Junction since the last timetable change. I can't remember why it doesn't go further north; reliability?

My guess is money & rolling stock. Much cheaper and requires less rolling stock to run a train to Watford Junction.

 

[cle]

It was a waste of paths north of Watford, it's not a truly mid distance service. Watford-Croydon is fine, frankly Watford-Clapham Junction would be fine too.

It does match up well re lines/platforms at Watford - although really it should be 8 cars which aren't doable on the Abbey.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It was a waste of paths north of Watford, it's not a truly mid distance service. Watford-Croydon is fine, frankly Watford-Clapham Junction would be fine too.

That makes sense. I would think more useful from a passenger perspective would be half-hourly Watford-Clapham, which then provides a very convenient way to get from Watford/Harrow/Wembley to South London. But I'm not sure how doable that is, since that service must cause a lot of conflicts with other busier lines. I note the timetable is already not quite clockface and some of the services take forever between Wembley Central and Shepherd's Bush, which I assume is because of some of the conflicts.

 

[Bald Rick]

Alright fine then just extend the Southern service from Croydon to St Albans Abbey. It already has a conflict at Watford.

But there isnt enough time to get the train to the Abbey and back to meet the return path.

And let’s be clear, we don’t want s train stood at Watford South blocking the Down Slow waiting for the previous late running one off the branch.

 

[Mgameing123]

But there isnt enough time to get the train to the Abbey and back to meet the return path.

And let’s be clear, we don’t want s train stood at Watford South blocking the Down Slow waiting for the previous late running one off the branch.

Alright just adjust the train times a bit. Is there really that limited paths?

 

[Bald Rick]

Alright just adjust the train times a bit. Is there really that limited paths?

If only it were that simple. That train terminates at East Croydon in a specific slot surrounded by other services, then the Brighton Main line (almost at capacity), in a specific slot amongst another dozen trains an hour or so, threads through the Clapham Jn complex of juctions (Falcon Junction, Latchmere Junctions) along the West london Line (at capacity), then onto the WCML slows at Wembely, also almost at capacity. It’s a nightmare in the timetable, and the sort of service that transmits delays around the network liek a virus.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If only it were that simple. That train terminates at East Croydon in a specific slot surrounded by other services, then the Brighton Main line (almost at capacity), in a specific slot amongst another dozen trains an hour or so, threads through the Clapham Jn complex of juctions (Falcon Junction, Latchmere Junctions) along the West london Line (at capacity), then onto the WCML slows at Wembely, also almost at capacity. It’s a nightmare in the timetable, and the sort of service that transmits delays around the network liek a virus.

Out of interest, would it help from that point of view if the service just ran Watford Junction-Clapham Junction? Since then I think it would be the only service using platforms 16-17 at Clapham Junction and would have no interaction with other Southern services. (You would need to find a way to turn it round at Clapham though)

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of interest, would it help from that point of view if the service just ran Watford Junction-Clapham Junction? Since then I think it would be the only service using platforms 16-17 at Clapham Junction and would have no interaction with other Southern services. (You would need to find a way to turn it round at Clapham though)

It might help. But not much.

 

[cle]

Out of interest, would it help from that point of view if the service just ran Watford Junction-Clapham Junction? Since then I think it would be the only service using platforms 16-17 at Clapham Junction and would have no interaction with other Southern services. (You would need to find a way to turn it round at Clapham though)

Do the foundation works and reinstate p1, and turn it at the Overground side.

Or make it an Overground service, while you’re at it, and interwork with short turns at Clapham. Doesn’t need to hit line speed with Wembley, Harrow and Watford calls.

 

[Mgameing123]

Do the foundation works and reinstate p1, and turn it at the Overground side.

Or make it an Overground service, while you’re at it, and interwork with short turns at Clapham. Doesn’t need to hit line speed with Wembley, Harrow and Watford calls.

Well do you think 15 minutes would be enough time for the Clapham train to run between Watford and Harrow & Wealdstone with only a call at Bushey?

If only it were that simple. That train terminates at East Croydon in a specific slot surrounded by other services, then the Brighton Main line (almost at capacity), in a specific slot amongst another dozen trains an hour or so, threads through the Clapham Jn complex of juctions (Falcon Junction, Latchmere Junctions) along the West london Line (at capacity), then onto the WCML slows at Wembely, also almost at capacity. It’s a nightmare in the timetable, and the sort of service that transmits delays around the network liek a virus.

Ok so what would be the best solution if we REALLY wanted through services that calls at London LNWR Local stops?

 

[Bald Rick]

Ok so what would be the best solution if we REALLY wanted through services that calls at London LNWR Local stops?

A flyover at Watford, and more infrastructure on the branch. Good luck!

 

[Richardr]

The thread is labelled improving rail links to Watford. To me the question that needs to be answered before answering that specific question is where is the additional demand for rail links to or from Watford. Maybe there is some on the St Albans Abbey line, although I doubt if there is that much additional demand to or from St Albans itself. Watford is pretty well connected to London, what with the main line, the Overground, and the Underground.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I do actually think Watford could do with a better service to London. Ideally I'd like to see LNWR departures every 10 minutes, as well as all-stops departures on the DC line every 10 minutes (either Lioness or Bakerloo). And certainly if you built the flyover and infrastructure on the Abbey Line to provide a half-hourly London-Watford-St Albans service, that would give you the extra required Watford-London trains. But at the same time I'd like money spent on infrastructure to actually give new services, and I'd worry about spending a huge amount of money rebuilding Watford Junction to provide a flyover if all that's going to achieve is save people changing trains without actually providing anything else new. Also I'm not sure whether Euston can handle the extra trains or whether work would be needed there.

btw in this scenario, I'd probably also build LNWR platforms at Willesden Junction to provide Overground connections. Possibly that would allow getting rid of the Watford-Croydon service. And make the standard LNWR stopping pattern Euston-Willesden-Harrow-Watford (scrapping the Bushey calls which wouldn't really be necessary if there are DC line trains every 10 mins and good connections at Harrow and Wealdstone)

 

[Verulamius]

The thread is labelled improving rail links to Watford. To me the question that needs to be answered before answering that specific question is where is the additional demand for rail links to or from Watford. Maybe there is some on the St Albans Abbey line, although I doubt if there is that much additional demand to or from St Albans itself. Watford is pretty well connected to London, what with the main line, the Overground, and the Underground.

What about the demand from the west in the Amersham direction?