Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair

[Silent]

if it is managed decline it is manged decline without malice. Is this not what happens to public services when you have 15 years of Tory rule? Funding is cut ( and/or politicised) so to keep the show on the road other things are reduced or dispensed with. You end up having to make "can kicking" decisions because the funding to fix issues/invest in improvements just isn't available.

I am sure staff morale and goodwill is also pretty low so people just wont go the extra mile. They just cant be bothered because they feel so unloved.

It reminds me of old 80’s tube station clips I’ve seen, Bank in particular, although I’m sure it’s not as bad. It will be if the managed decline is continued for a decade or so I imagine.

 

[sh24]

It reminds me of old 80’s tube station clips I’ve seen, Bank in particular, although I’m sure it’s not as bad. It will be if the managed decline is continued for a decade or so I imagine.

I remember the late 80's tube and we are currently a long way from that position. The 72 and 92 stock look tired but nothing like the exhausted state of 59 and 72mk1 stock on the Northern circa 1988.

 

[Silent]

I remember the late 80's tube and we are currently a long way from that position. The 72 and 92 stock look tired but nothing like the exhausted state of 59 and 72mk1 stock on the Northern circa 1988.

I wasn’t born then so only have the video to go off of.

72mk1 stock would be around the same age as the 09 stock is now then. But I think maybe in the late 80’s train design evolved more which might have made it like visually more outdated than an 09 stock is, although aesthetically s and 09 stock look very mid/late 00’s to me.

 

[bramling]

After a heavy trip on the Underground yesterday, travelling on the Circle, H&C, Central, Northern and Bakerloo lines. I interestingly concluded that despite the Bakerloo 1972TS age and vandalism, it sill seemed in better condition than the other lines. These trains have seen many modifications recently with new LED lights and various other mods, I travelled from Willesden Junction to Charing Cross with a enthusiastic fast driver who had just got the technique spot on! The train I was on really performed well and accelerated quickly and smoothly, and also experienced a few Westinghouse break applications at Kilburn Park and Maida Vale. Apart from the rather persistent HTB tag, and the severely scratched windows these trains still seem in good condition! with their lovely seat comfort a bonus compared to the likes of the 1995, 1996, 1973 and 1992TS.

The 1992TS just seems neglected and knacked in every respect. Apart from the very low down though not worn seats) the departure is riddled with screeches now at every station, also the doors do not seem tight enough and the partitions shake ominously when the train stops. The door chimes are barely audible and at one point they stuck on between Bond Street and Marble Arch, For some reason the dwell time at each station was oddly long at 13:00 hours and the train emitted strange forced hissing noises at regular intervals. When we arrived at Oxford Circus Eastbound the was our train to Hainault Via Newbury Park, followed by an Epping train six minutes after followed by a Loughton train nine minutes after. Considering this is the Central Line at midday the service provision is scandalous!

I travel on the Northern Line often and I always notice is just how rough and jerky the 1995TS is, departing every station the train jerks frantically in to life and the same when decelerating. Could this be due to the extra strain on the motors that the ATO entails? Because it never used to be this bad five or six years ago. I understand that the 1996TS may have the same trouble. The 1995TS interiors are looking dreadful in dire need of some TLC, the seat moquette from 2013 just looks awfully worn and faded, nor is the any padding, you are just sitting on some metal with a thin worn fabric around it! The trains seem to still do their job well but are looking rather sorry for themselves.

The S Stock also is very rough riding especially in the Kings Cross-Edgware Road area, also the seating is vile. Of the trains I travelled on most of the seats where threadbare and worn. Also the whole of the Victoria Line from previous visits to London is looking awful, the 2009TS just looks faded and worn in every respect, the stations seem stuffy, sweaty and unbreathable the air quality on that line seems very bad compared to other lines. Has any one noticed how dimly lit stations are nowadays? I am sure stations were better lit five to ten years ago!

A couple of points,

The jerkiness of the 95 stock is generally down to the ATO software. They have never really managed to get the Thales system to drive the trains smoothly, though to be fair there have been improvements from when the system first came in.

As regards station lighting, a lot of this will be because lighting nowadays tends to be diffused, which relies on keeping the diffusers clean. This is why for my years LU used exposed fluorescent tubes. But of course at some point someone knew better.

But in general I agree with the points made, LU is in a state at the moment, and has been for some while. I wouldn’t attribute it all to managed decline though - some is due to lack of management focus, and some is because a lot of shoddy stuff was done during the PPP years (often at significant cost) and the flaws of that are now starting to show.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For some reason the dwell time at each station was oddly long at 13:00 hours and the train emitted strange forced hissing noises at regular intervals. When we arrived at Oxford Circus Eastbound the was our train to Hainault Via Newbury Park, followed by an Epping train six minutes after followed by a Loughton train nine minutes after.

You've answered your own question about the dwell time, clearly they were trying to regulate the service.

I travel on the Northern Line often and I always notice is just how rough and jerky the 1995TS is, departing every station the train jerks frantically in to life and the same when decelerating. Could this be due to the extra strain on the motors that the ATO entails? Because it never used to be this bad five or six years ago.

The Northern Line has been like that ever since ATO was introduced. It used to be a lot worse when the system first came in. The fact is the ATO system isn't as delicate as a human driver would be, it's the same on all the ATO lines.

if it is managed decline it is manged decline without malice. Is this not what happens to public services when you have 15 years of Tory rule? Funding is cut ( and/or politicised) so to keep the show on the road other things are reduced or dispensed with.

On another thread we had someone talk about "Sadiq Khan't's TfL" having to be "bailed out". That person clearly had neither the intelligence nor the understanding to appreciate that TfL were heavily reliant on fare revenue (about 70% of their revenue came from fares in 2019) and that Covid completely trashed their income. At one point in 2020 they had seen a 95% drop in passenger journeys on the tube, from 100m a month to 5m a month.

But the "bail out" had strings attached and we are seeing the effects of those strings. Major capital investment has just about been forthcoming for the new Siemens tube trains but, beyond that, everything that could be cut had to be cut. And that was after Boris Johnson had spent years cutting staff- both public-facing in ticket offices and back office staff- to cover the costs of both PPP and his own hubris. Everything has been stripped to the bone; of course it all looks knackered.

 

[whoosh]

I'm sure I read they are spending £100,000 per week keeping the Bakerloo trains running.

The dust is a visible hazy cloud in some locations, and must surely affect the lighting.

The system is much busier than in the 1980s, (the population of London reduced in 70s and 80s) with associated higher amounts of dust produced from people's skin cells, hair and clothing, and a lot hotter also. The Victoria Line trip I made one evening in April was boiling, and the Train Operator had rightly elected to wear issued ear defenders.

It's certainly got issues.

 

[greyman42]

Am I the only person who thinks the air quality on the tube just feels so thick and unbreathable nowadays? I always feel wheezy when I have just travelled on it. Do other people share this view and has it really got worse? You do worry for the drivers and the people, who have to be exposed to that vile air for many houres daily, really quite worrying.

I have never noticed any problems with the air quality. Perhaps you could explain "thick and unbreathable". Is it only on certain lines?

 

[Silent]

I have never noticed any problems with the air quality. Perhaps you could explain "thick and unbreathable". Is it only on certain lines?

There are videos that show the air pollution on the tube is very bad

 

[announcements]

The jerkiness of the 95 stock is generally down to the ATO software. They have never really managed to get the Thales system to drive the trains smoothly, though to be fair there have been improvements from when the system first came in.

It's surely also about the track kinks/ alignment too? For instance, the section between Oval and Stockwell really shakes and chucks standing passengers around - you have to cling on for dear life!

 

[350401]

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for this, but the budget provided a reasonable capital settlement for TFL - "£485 million for Transport for London (TFL)’s capital renewals programme in 2025-26. This includes funding for rolling stock on the Piccadilly and Elizabeth Lines." - will this be enough to also allow for a start on the procurement of the new trains for the Bakerloo line?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/672232d010b0d582ee8c4905/Autumn_Budget_2024__web_accessible_.pdf

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's surely also about the track kinks/ alignment too?

Some of it is, but I think that's also a consequence of the ATO. I used the Northern Line every day whilst they were installing the system and travel through the junctions at Camden Town was noticeably more jerky and jolty after ATO came into use. I suspect that it's another area where human drivers can be a lot more delicate and nuanced than ATO can ever be.

I'm sure it's far more nuanced than it appears, but as a passenger the Thales system almost feels binary sometimes with things like acceleration- it's either giving it full beans or it isn't giving it any power. It certainly felt like that when it was first installed, although they have softened it a bit you still notice it on longer straight runs such as between Archway and Highgate.

 

[whoosh]

I'm sure it's far more nuanced than it appears, but as a passenger the Thales system almost feels binary sometimes with things like acceleration- it's either giving it full beans or it isn't giving it any power.

On. Off.
On. Off.
Oonnnn. Off.
On. Off.
On. Off.
On. Off.
Oonnnn. Off.

It has similarities with the worst taxi ride I've experienced.

 

[The exile]

There are videos that show the air pollution on the tube is very bad

And of course with a few exceptional hot spots the air that you’re coming from (outside) is probably cleaner than it has been at any time for centuries (bar 2020 of course)

 

[markle]

It reminds me of old 80’s tube station clips I’ve seen, Bank in particular, although I’m sure it’s not as bad. It will be if the managed decline is continued for a decade or so I imagine.

BBC's 1989 documentary Heart of the Angel gives a great insight into the condition of the tube in the late 80s. You can watch online at:

BBC Two - 40 Minutes, Heart of the Angel

Forty-eight hours in the life of Angel tube station in the days before its refurbishment.

www.bbc.co.uk

Whilst there are problems - we are a long, long way away from the state of the tube back then.

 

[Bikeman78]

I do think if you compare it to other cities like New York or Paris, the graffiti on rolling stock is probably similar. Just the consequence of living in a busy city.

There is hardly any graffiti on the Subway anymore. The trains are spotless but the stations are very run down.

 

[Dstock7080]

There is hardly any graffiti on the Subway anymore. The trains are spotless but the stations are very run down.

Indeed, as the Clean Car Program of the late-1980s rid the trains of graffiti, except for those due for imminent withdrawal.
Whereas London continued the spiral downward during that time.

 

[Silent]

BBC's 1989 documentary Heart of the Angel gives a great insight into the condition of the tube in the late 80s. You can watch online at:

BBC Two - 40 Minutes, Heart of the Angel

Forty-eight hours in the life of Angel tube station in the days before its refurbishment.

www.bbc.co.uk

Whilst there are problems - we are a long, long way away from the state of the tube back then.

Although the infrastructure looks worse I think the customer service might have been better looking at the show. More interactive. But also less politically correct I guess. Just saw an old women who wasn’t able to use the stairs after the lift broke down and all that was said was “Well their is no other way.”

Office lifts really used for a train station???

 

[markle]

Although the infrastructure looks worse I think the customer service might have been better looking at the show. More interactive. But also less politically correct I guess. Just saw an old women who wasn’t able to use the stairs after the lift broke down and all that was said was “Well their is no other way.”

Office lifts really used for a train station???

Each person values different things, I guess. For me, my priority is a fast, reliable, frictionless service.

I'm not particularly interested in a chat with anyone, and honestly I view the need to go and talk to a member of staff as a sign of a service failure somewhere.

I'd suggest though that staff nowadays are a little bit helpful in a disruption than the staff in the documentary - in part because they now have better access to service information.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Office lifts really used for a train station???

No, the old Angel had similar lifts to those lifts at places like Goodge Street and Covent Garden. And it is a long way to the street level from the platform at Angel, as evidenced by the escalators in the ‘new’ station.

 

[Silent]

No, the old Angel had similar lifts to those lifts at places like Goodge Street and Covent Garden. And it is a long way to the street level from the platform at Angel, as evidenced by the escalators in the ‘new’ station.

That's what a staff member on the show Markle linked was saying I wondered if he was exaggerating or something.

Each person values different things, I guess. For me, my priority is a fast, reliable, frictionless service.

I'm not particularly interested in a chat with anyone, and honestly I view the need to go and talk to a member of staff as a sign of a service failure somewhere.

I'd suggest though that staff nowadays are a little bit helpful in a disruption than the staff in the documentary - in part because they now have better access to service information.

True, a staff member was saying he didn't know what was wrong because no one ever tells him when their was a service disruption. I think I meant customer service in a way where the staff seem more approachable or familiar to passengers than them providing information.

 

[Recessio]

No, the old Angel had similar lifts to those lifts at places like Goodge Street and Covent Garden. And it is a long way to the street level from the platform at Angel, as evidenced by the escalators in the ‘new’ station.

If I remember correctly, only some of the lifts at Angel were 80s so-called "office" lifts, I think there was at least one much older one?

 

[announcements]

Yes -- in Heart of Angel, new slightly smaller, squared-off lifts had been installed, except one of them that still had the trapezoidal shape complete with bostwick gates. I wonder if that one was on the cusp of being replaced, or by then then they knew Angel was to receive escalators in the near future and so didn't bother replacing it?

Interestingly the lifts still had operators in them sitting on a wooden stall. It may just be a coincidence that they were under manual control during filming, or perhaps they hadn't made the lift operators redundant by that point and so they had to work the new ones!

 

[Thirteen]

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for this, but the budget provided a reasonable capital settlement for TFL - "£485 million for Transport for London (TFL)’s capital renewals programme in 2025-26. This includes funding for rolling stock on the Piccadilly and Elizabeth Lines." - will this be enough to also allow for a start on the procurement of the new trains for the Bakerloo line?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/672232d010b0d582ee8c4905/Autumn_Budget_2024__web_accessible_.pdf

I think the money for the extra 345s and possibly the Piccadilly 2024 stock was already ringfenced so not new money per se.

 

[JJmoogle]

A big problem with a lot of recent tag graffiti I see is the growth in the use of incredibly strong acids in the paint or markers so that even if it's cleaned off it either looks an absolute filthy mess or it straight up eaves the original work clearly visible because it's stripped the actual train paint down to the metal after it's cleaned.

 

[Silent]

^Yep, I notice this on one s8 stock train. It’s as if the graffiti consisted of scraping the trains paint off.

 

[sh24]

Although the infrastructure looks worse I think the customer service might have been better looking at the show. More interactive. But also less politically correct I guess. Just saw an old women who wasn’t able to use the stairs after the lift broke down and all that was said was “Well their is no other way.”

Office lifts really used for a train station???

The customer service if anything was worse. I can remember some impressively rude employees.

Also worth bearing in mind that passenger journeys are 50%+ higher v the late 80's (from memory, can't find the stats).

Today's tube isn't perfect but it is still really good.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes the inadequate government funding for TfL is clearly a major factor, but the many years of fares freeze can't be ignored. How much cleaning and graffiti removal would the lost revenue have paid for?

 

[bramling]

The customer service if anything was worse. I can remember some impressively rude employees.

Also worth bearing in mind that passenger journeys are 50%+ higher v the late 80's (from memory, can't find the stats).

Today's tube isn't perfect but it is still really good.

The problem is that there has been a quite conspicuous decline from what was being offered a few years ago, despite the fact that having enjoyed a lot of investment during the PPP years we should be on the receiving end of significant improvements now.

Just looking at some of the Tube lines. The Jubilee Line has been resignalled and has mid-life trains, yet the fleet is becoming a problem child and the service suffers as a result. The Northern Line seems to be up the wall very much more regularly than a decade ago, and even when running “normally” the service is gappy. We have the Piccadilly Line that nowadays doesn’t even want to attempt going above 30 mph in the open during the autumn months, and the Central Line’s fleet (and increasingly infrastructure) issues are well documented. Even the Victoria Line isn’t as consistent as it was a few years ago, whilst the Bakerloo bumbles on.

How much is due to funding issues is debatable, but one has to question whether recent generations of management have been as competent and effective as they might have been in terms of making the best of what they have, especially in terms of staffing issues. The “fit for the future” stations programme in particular seems to have been a disaster.

 

[Ethano92]

if it is managed decline it is manged decline without malice. Is this not what happens to public services when you have 15 years of Tory rule? Funding is cut ( and/or politicised) so to keep the show on the road other things are reduced or dispensed with. You end up having to make "can kicking" decisions because the funding to fix issues/invest in improvements just isn't available.

I am sure staff morale and goodwill is also pretty low so people just wont go the extra mile. They just cant be bothered because they feel so unloved.

I was surprised this hasn’t been mentioned yet. Since Johnson cut government funding to TFL (at least in the way it was during his time as mayor) TFL became the only capital city public transport system in Western Europe to not be heavily, yet alone partly, reliant on central government funding. Of course they were never heavily reliant on it but between 1/4 to 1/3 of your income lost is significant. There never seems to be a focus on this but rather a focus on the fare freeze and bus hopper which has had enormous social benefit as more and more communities are out priced out of their own city. It’s no surprise to me that TFL might not currently be in a position to focus on train and station aesthetics, but rather everyday running with an increasingly cripplingly old and/or unreliable fleet on many lines.

TfL can hardly afford to replace Bakerloo, central and W&C line trains within the next 10 years. I’m sure someone in their offices has recognised that this causes an issue as they’ll need to start considering Northern and Jubilee replacement within the next 10-20 years. Otherwise they’ll end up in another sorry state where they’re spending insane amounts to keep ancient trains running like the 72s. That’s before you begin to consider network expansion with significant benefit like Thamesmead, Lewisham, Overground expansion, Northern Line separation or Crossrail 2. These aren’t just nice-to-have projects but rather projects which will allow London’s transport to keep up with its fast growing population.

 

[Thirteen]

Fare rises are going to happen as part of the funding deal, Sadiq Khan froze single fares for 2024 but one has to wonder if we'll see bigger increases in single fares like on the buses and Trams? It's currently £1.75 but perhaps it needs to go to £2.

In the letter from Louise Haigh to Sadiq Khan, it seems like there is possibly more money coming in late Spring as part of the Spending Review so we could the Bakerloo Line stock replacement being announced during the period. The tram replacement order is likely coming out of this new funding deal since the cost of the fleet is nowhere near as high as the Bakerloo order plus it's a smaller order.