The PPP was an exercise in lipstick applying to a pig. Some surface gloss but most deep underlying issues, mainly infrastructure, were pretty much untouched.
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Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair
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The other thing worth noting with PPP was the exercise of determining a real cost/benefit of facilities/enhancements/disruptions - bring them to life with real money changing hands.
TFL had a lot of lessons learnt WRT with contract writing and management (some infracos being tempted and taking advantage)
On a related subject, has anyone a view on the effectiveness of outsourcing of many of functions relating to cleaning (are the contractor being pressured regarding cleanliness levels)
TFL had a lot of lessons learnt WRT with contract writing and management (some infracos being tempted and taking advantage)
On a related subject, has anyone a view on the effectiveness of outsourcing of many of functions relating to cleaning (are the contractor being pressured regarding cleanliness levels)
announcements
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However, there was some unnecessary spending under Tubelines too - certain systems replaced for the sake of standardisation rather than because it was really required.
I'm getting a lot of videos recently on social media about the dirt on 'fabric' seating. People hitting them with shed loads of dust coming out, even got a video of cleaners cleaning Northern line seats. Comments often full debating why we don't have plastic seating. I hate plastic seats because I find them seriously uncomfortable, but would Italian/Dutch style (leather?) seating be better? The seats were never really a huge issue for me, but I used a Northern line train the other week and the seats were filthy, literally turning black.
As for air quality, I think this is a situation of once you notice it, you can't not notice it. Pre covid, I never really noticed road pollution, unless it was gridlock. Then the air quality cleared up as the roads were dead and as it's got back to normal now I'm constantly noticing it.
Considering the visit to the Siemens factory, I was disappointed that funding for the Bakerloo line fleet wasn't announced, but I imagine it can wait until the review because they're busy with building the Piccadilly fleet.
The fare rises will at least match the NR rise, but if bus fare is hiked 25p in one go that'll go down very badly, but of course that's better than £1 outside of London.
As for air quality, I think this is a situation of once you notice it, you can't not notice it. Pre covid, I never really noticed road pollution, unless it was gridlock. Then the air quality cleared up as the roads were dead and as it's got back to normal now I'm constantly noticing it.
Considering the visit to the Siemens factory, I was disappointed that funding for the Bakerloo line fleet wasn't announced, but I imagine it can wait until the review because they're busy with building the Piccadilly fleet.
The fare rises will at least match the NR rise, but if bus fare is hiked 25p in one go that'll go down very badly, but of course that's better than £1 outside of London.
Good news in the budget regarding the Government support for 2025/26 which should hopefully ease the TFL funding pressures/managed decline in the short term.
Ie it would seem that this will fund the committed Major projects leaving the other income to fund operation, maintenance, renewals/overhauls
Ie it would seem that this will fund the committed Major projects leaving the other income to fund operation, maintenance, renewals/overhauls
The Bakerloo Line Upgrade being mentioned in the letter makes me think it's on the cards but not in the current capital programme.
The fare rises on the buses and trams were by 10p last time and 15p before that so if it isn't a 25p increase then maybe increasing it to £1.90 would be a compromise.
Plastic seats would be nasty when it’s sauna temperatures!
The central government funding that was cut was replaced with TfL getting a greater share of business rates. The old grant was around £700m, the rates retention has recently been around £2bn. So if they’re struggling for cash, that’s not the reason.
The business rates retention isn't allowed to be used for day-to-day spending (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...t-funding-to-upgrade-londons-transport-system). Which I speculate might explain why TfL have had to cut back on things like tackling graffiti.
Regardless, being the only world-city that doesn't receive decent day-to-day funding from central government definitely doesn't help either investment in new stock, or maintenance of existing stock.
I assume you’re referring to the line
Which I read as referring only to the central government funding. I’ve not read anything saying there’s any limits on what the business rates can be used for.
Mikey C
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That could mean TfL buying the stock as well, or just taking back the depot and maintenance?
Russel
Established Member
From a visit on Friday, it's clear that cleaning and maintenance has certainly been cut, as already posted in this thread, the seats are disgusting and the external appearance of the fleet also leaves a lot to be desired... The LU livery is red, white and blue, on the 95 stock and S stock, the white is noticeably starting to turn yellow!
Credit to the teams that look after the 96 stock on the Jubilee though, they certainly look tidy in comparison to the rest of the network!
Credit to the teams that look after the 96 stock on the Jubilee though, they certainly look tidy in comparison to the rest of the network!
bramling
Veteran Member
I’d say this isn’t massively likely on the basis that the Alstom contract works fairly well from an operational point of view. The Northern Line fleet certainly performs better than the similar Jubilee fleet.
Yeah the 96 stock externally visually look better looked after than the S8 stock when I commute to work.
I expect the Altrom fleet contract is still performance based thus has strong financial incentive. Also more difficult for LUL to reduce the budget (as it is contracturally set?)
Whereas the "Inhouse" fleet budgets are just slashed, worker numbers reduced & left to do "what they can" and thus the outcome you are seeing.
Whereas the "Inhouse" fleet budgets are just slashed, worker numbers reduced & left to do "what they can" and thus the outcome you are seeing.
Perhaps because much less of the Jubilee line is open-air?
Yeah maybe, it’s a much simpler line as well in regards to services and branches.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
A belated welcome to the forum and thanks for posting. It is over 3 years since I have been on the London Underground. It did not seem too bad as far as I can remember.
It is sadly now markedly worse than it was three years ago.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
What changed? Does it all come down to money and the maintenance budget?
I think it is still pretty good and much better than most countries. The exteriors of the 72 and 73 stock are very tired which I can understand as they are due to be replaced soon and the 09 and S stock need new seat covers but I think that's due to age and intensive use.
There seems to be more graffiti generally (not just on the tube) so I think we are going through one of those phases unfortunately but still not as bad as many countries and I can't think when I have last travelled on a graffitied train in the UK (tube or mainline) but its common in Europe - especially Belgium for some reason
There seems to be more graffiti generally (not just on the tube) so I think we are going through one of those phases unfortunately but still not as bad as many countries and I can't think when I have last travelled on a graffitied train in the UK (tube or mainline) but its common in Europe - especially Belgium for some reason
Almost certainly. Plus more aggressive graffiti clowns.
boiledbeans2
Member
I've thought about a related topic. Is the CLIP so heavily delayed because it's done in-house? If it was contracted to an external party, the external party would be moving mountains to deliver on time, otherwise they would have to pay penalties.
Wasn't really thinking of project work in this discussion. I was thinking of the reduction of inhouse maintenance depot staffing/hours.
With regards to CLIP - I think much of the design was outsourced. I believe the delays have been complications with scope variation/indecision, integration & Testing plus key skills within the management team (as ever, key people have moved on/been diverted)
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This is one of the few things you view can view wholeheartedly through a political lens.
Mayor Khan has almost if not total control over the issue.
He holds the purse strings when it comes to non-routine cleaning, if lack of money is the reason tagged trains are being seen in service more often. He has the sole authority to direct TfL to take a tagged train out of service even if that leaves a gap in service, if that's the reason they're seemingly a more common sight. He even has the final say on livery and application, if there is a change to be had that might make it harder to tag a train and easier to clean it when it happens.
If the issue is a rise in the sheer flagrant disregard for the law by miscreants on station platforms, he has by far the greatest power of any local politician in the UK or even any Mayor in the (free) world, to direct and even fund specific policing to prevent/detect this crime. He even has ear of the Prime Minister, who seems to have no qualms about fast tracking the wheels of justice to send young offenders to prison to send a message. To say to the country that vandalizing a tube train, a crime that strikes at the heart of civil society and carries huge expense for the working people of London, is unacceptable.
Although not remotely comparable in terms of the severity and impact, I see parallels with London's failure to get to grips with knife crime, and what blame for that can be apportioned to Khan. Offenders form a small (tiny?) proportion of their socoio-economic demographic. It's a circle and activity that easily lends itself well to intelligence led policing and community based prevention. Preventing young people seeing this as cool, or at a minimum making sure the consequences outweigh the benefits to those seeking to be cool, is a far more effective and far cheaper (in the long run) approach.
In extremis, swift, public, and harsh justice, would have a powerful effect in terms of preventing and deterring, and might even lead to a whole host of other benefits, since it seems unlikely that these offenders aren't a burden to society in other ways. If you don't see tagging as wrong, or see it as an act of rebellion, what else are you up to?
And of course, offenders might not even be bad people doing things because they're bad. They might simply be people failed by society. A lack of opportunity, social mobility, a sense of exclusion, if not literally excluded. Nothing to do and nowhere to do it. No hope. That's easily fixed by someone with political influence and literal powers the Mayor of London can wield.
The Mayor is the custodian of the image of London. As well as being Londoner's literal custodian.
Mayor Khan has almost if not total control over the issue.
He holds the purse strings when it comes to non-routine cleaning, if lack of money is the reason tagged trains are being seen in service more often. He has the sole authority to direct TfL to take a tagged train out of service even if that leaves a gap in service, if that's the reason they're seemingly a more common sight. He even has the final say on livery and application, if there is a change to be had that might make it harder to tag a train and easier to clean it when it happens.
If the issue is a rise in the sheer flagrant disregard for the law by miscreants on station platforms, he has by far the greatest power of any local politician in the UK or even any Mayor in the (free) world, to direct and even fund specific policing to prevent/detect this crime. He even has ear of the Prime Minister, who seems to have no qualms about fast tracking the wheels of justice to send young offenders to prison to send a message. To say to the country that vandalizing a tube train, a crime that strikes at the heart of civil society and carries huge expense for the working people of London, is unacceptable.
Although not remotely comparable in terms of the severity and impact, I see parallels with London's failure to get to grips with knife crime, and what blame for that can be apportioned to Khan. Offenders form a small (tiny?) proportion of their socoio-economic demographic. It's a circle and activity that easily lends itself well to intelligence led policing and community based prevention. Preventing young people seeing this as cool, or at a minimum making sure the consequences outweigh the benefits to those seeking to be cool, is a far more effective and far cheaper (in the long run) approach.
In extremis, swift, public, and harsh justice, would have a powerful effect in terms of preventing and deterring, and might even lead to a whole host of other benefits, since it seems unlikely that these offenders aren't a burden to society in other ways. If you don't see tagging as wrong, or see it as an act of rebellion, what else are you up to?
And of course, offenders might not even be bad people doing things because they're bad. They might simply be people failed by society. A lack of opportunity, social mobility, a sense of exclusion, if not literally excluded. Nothing to do and nowhere to do it. No hope. That's easily fixed by someone with political influence and literal powers the Mayor of London can wield.
The Mayor is the custodian of the image of London. As well as being Londoner's literal custodian.
bahnause
Member
The mayor of London does not hold the purse strings. He has only limited influence regarding the income side. A big part of the budget relies on government funding. So if you, for example, happen to have a corrupt, incompetent, spiteful government that decides not to like a certain mayor and therefore cut funding for this city more then for other cities, you might get the result you see.