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Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair

Meerkat

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14 Jul 2018
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Target a small number of culprits, give the police serious tech support and the threat of proper jail time and lots of community service cleaning graffiti, and offer sentence reductions and rewards for grassing culprits who can then be watched and caught in the act.
Proper punishment, knowledge that they are a target for people with wide resources, and the fear of grasses, is the way to squash most problems.
A bit of international co-operation is needed to identify the travelling culprits - the bar for banning entry to the country is much lower than that for conviction AIUI?
 
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Mawkie

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17 Feb 2016
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Proper punishment, knowledge that they are a target for people with wide resources, and the fear of grasses, is the way to squash most problems.
I think the forum underestimates the notoriety graffiti artists enjoy in their own community (and seemingly wider community too). Daniel Halpin famously served time for his dreadful tags, and went on to sell his 'art' and join up with others to form exhibitions for further financial gain. So the conviction did nothing at all to stop him.


A bit of international co-operation is needed to identify the travelling culprits - the bar for banning entry to the country is much lower than that for conviction AIUI?
Surely this is a joke? You can't possibly think there is going to be some kind of Interpol exercise for some tags?
 

Horizon22

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Well something is broken in the funding system then. TOCs have to pay a fortune for graffiti cleaning, but they fund BTP in the most part.
I was actually thinking there's a gap in the market for a private investigations firm to be paid by the train maintenance companies (like Hitachi for example) who have train maintenance contracts with the TOCs. They could do an investigation and the do private prosecutions. Similar to what supermarkets are now doing for shoplifting.

You could argue the “funding system” for the railway has been broken for years but I fear that will be wildly off topic!
 

Meerkat

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I think the forum underestimates the notoriety graffiti artists enjoy in their own community (and seemingly wider community too). Daniel Halpin famously served time for his dreadful tags, and went on to sell his 'art' and join up with others to form exhibitions for further financial gain. So the conviction did nothing at all to stop him.
Clearly the punishment wasn’t enough, and the monetisation needs to be stopped.
Surely this is a joke? You can't possibly think there is going to be some kind of Interpol exercise for some tags?
Why not, if they are doing enough damage and there are teams working on it anyway they may as well cooperate.
 

mrmartin

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17 Dec 2012
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Just because a handful of people have done time and didn't stop doesn't mean there is a very significant deterrent effect to others. And tbh repeat offenders should be the easiest to catch; you have their details, you know what their tag looks like, should be pretty trivial. Especially when they do interviews with national newspapers confessing to continuing!

From my reading of various things the UK used to be seen as a very "harsh" country for graffiti punishments, but it seems to me over the last decade or so the police have given up trying to catch people.

And to be clear; I'm not suggesting we divert all of BTP to catching taggers. I strongly believe a group of 5-10 officers could make enormous headway in it given it is so few people committing so much damage.

Unless the courts are prepared to give these graffiti vandals actual prison time, I fear there is little to be gained by catching them in the act.

What is really shocking is it's often the same locations over and over again where trains are getting vandalised; it must be worth investing in a higher level of security at those locations.

I definitely agree that rolling stock thus vandalised should be pulled from service and cleaned immediately, even at the expense of a higher number of cancellations. It should also be made clear exactly what the reason for the cancellation is - it would help generate some pressure in society against such acts in the first place.

Any pictures published online of the results of such vandalism should have the details blurred out - that way we can see the extent of the damage without giving the individual vandals the publicity for their scrawlings that they seek.
The thing is the courts WILL give them serious prison time (and used to regularly, but it seems the police have stopped catching them).


Graffiti like this is in the highest category of culpability - it's pre planned and by nature tries to do the most damage as possible. It's also probably in the highest level of harm because of the value and the economic and social impact of the offense (taking trains out of service etc).

As such the sentencing guidelines state 6months minimum prison - 4 years jail time, with the starting point being 1 year 6 months. Given that a lot of the aggravating factors will apply it is actually very difficult for the judge to not give serious prison time for this kind of stuff.
 
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Gostav

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14 May 2016
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515
Just because a handful of people have done time and didn't stop doesn't mean there is a very significant deterrent effect to others. And tbh repeat offenders should be the easiest to catch; you have their details, you know what their tag looks like, should be pretty trivial. Especially when they do interviews with national newspapers confessing to continuing!
These active people and groups generally have a high level of knowledge and means to avoid anything from appearing as evidence, such as in public videos, where any parts that can show physical features are covered. After each operation, they will dispose of all clothes and shoes to ensure that individuals cannot be tracked and always wear gloves when handling spray paint cans to ensure that no fingerprints are left. Basically, their experience on Reddit is that it is difficult to locate them personally unless they are caught in the act.

These measures make it difficult for the police to obtain solid evidence or even confirm their identities, and if they return to continental Europe immediately, it will make the investigation impossible.
 

Pegpilot

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26 Mar 2020
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So sad to read this thread. I was part of LUL's efforts to combat graffiti in the early 90s and it seems we've learned nothing. We engaged back then with our friends in New York where, in the 80's, graffiti was out of control and definitely impacted seriously on ridership as the local population perceived the network to be effectively lawless. The MTA took a hard line approach and refused to release "bombed" cars for service (denial of the oxygen of publicity) and slowly clawed back the network. Check out the book "Subway Art" which explains the psyche of the "artists" in great detail. But an effective response requires leadership and commitment, and right now that seems in short supply - I was saddened at the state of 09 stock on my last visit to the capital in November.
 

Meerkat

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These active people and groups generally have a high level of knowledge and means to avoid anything from appearing as evidence, such as in public videos, where any parts that can show physical features are covered. After each operation, they will dispose of all clothes and shoes to ensure that individuals cannot be tracked and always wear gloves when handling spray paint cans to ensure that no fingerprints are left. Basically, their experience on Reddit is that it is difficult to locate them personally unless they are caught in the act.

These measures make it difficult for the police to obtain solid evidence or even confirm their identities, and if they return to continental Europe immediately, it will make the investigation impossible.
That’s why you need informers and tracking. Catch them on site.
Re interior tagging - is any of the Underground onboard CCTV live linked to a control room?
 

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