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Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair

Meerkat

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14 Jul 2018
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9,174
Target a small number of culprits, give the police serious tech support and the threat of proper jail time and lots of community service cleaning graffiti, and offer sentence reductions and rewards for grassing culprits who can then be watched and caught in the act.
Proper punishment, knowledge that they are a target for people with wide resources, and the fear of grasses, is the way to squash most problems.
A bit of international co-operation is needed to identify the travelling culprits - the bar for banning entry to the country is much lower than that for conviction AIUI?
 
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Mawkie

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17 Feb 2016
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Proper punishment, knowledge that they are a target for people with wide resources, and the fear of grasses, is the way to squash most problems.
I think the forum underestimates the notoriety graffiti artists enjoy in their own community (and seemingly wider community too). Daniel Halpin famously served time for his dreadful tags, and went on to sell his 'art' and join up with others to form exhibitions for further financial gain. So the conviction did nothing at all to stop him.


A bit of international co-operation is needed to identify the travelling culprits - the bar for banning entry to the country is much lower than that for conviction AIUI?
Surely this is a joke? You can't possibly think there is going to be some kind of Interpol exercise for some tags?
 

Horizon22

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Well something is broken in the funding system then. TOCs have to pay a fortune for graffiti cleaning, but they fund BTP in the most part.
I was actually thinking there's a gap in the market for a private investigations firm to be paid by the train maintenance companies (like Hitachi for example) who have train maintenance contracts with the TOCs. They could do an investigation and the do private prosecutions. Similar to what supermarkets are now doing for shoplifting.

You could argue the “funding system” for the railway has been broken for years but I fear that will be wildly off topic!
 

Meerkat

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9,174
I think the forum underestimates the notoriety graffiti artists enjoy in their own community (and seemingly wider community too). Daniel Halpin famously served time for his dreadful tags, and went on to sell his 'art' and join up with others to form exhibitions for further financial gain. So the conviction did nothing at all to stop him.
Clearly the punishment wasn’t enough, and the monetisation needs to be stopped.
Surely this is a joke? You can't possibly think there is going to be some kind of Interpol exercise for some tags?
Why not, if they are doing enough damage and there are teams working on it anyway they may as well cooperate.
 

mrmartin

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17 Dec 2012
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Just because a handful of people have done time and didn't stop doesn't mean there is a very significant deterrent effect to others. And tbh repeat offenders should be the easiest to catch; you have their details, you know what their tag looks like, should be pretty trivial. Especially when they do interviews with national newspapers confessing to continuing!

From my reading of various things the UK used to be seen as a very "harsh" country for graffiti punishments, but it seems to me over the last decade or so the police have given up trying to catch people.

And to be clear; I'm not suggesting we divert all of BTP to catching taggers. I strongly believe a group of 5-10 officers could make enormous headway in it given it is so few people committing so much damage.

Unless the courts are prepared to give these graffiti vandals actual prison time, I fear there is little to be gained by catching them in the act.

What is really shocking is it's often the same locations over and over again where trains are getting vandalised; it must be worth investing in a higher level of security at those locations.

I definitely agree that rolling stock thus vandalised should be pulled from service and cleaned immediately, even at the expense of a higher number of cancellations. It should also be made clear exactly what the reason for the cancellation is - it would help generate some pressure in society against such acts in the first place.

Any pictures published online of the results of such vandalism should have the details blurred out - that way we can see the extent of the damage without giving the individual vandals the publicity for their scrawlings that they seek.
The thing is the courts WILL give them serious prison time (and used to regularly, but it seems the police have stopped catching them).


Graffiti like this is in the highest category of culpability - it's pre planned and by nature tries to do the most damage as possible. It's also probably in the highest level of harm because of the value and the economic and social impact of the offense (taking trains out of service etc).

As such the sentencing guidelines state 6months minimum prison - 4 years jail time, with the starting point being 1 year 6 months. Given that a lot of the aggravating factors will apply it is actually very difficult for the judge to not give serious prison time for this kind of stuff.
 
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Gostav

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14 May 2016
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516
Just because a handful of people have done time and didn't stop doesn't mean there is a very significant deterrent effect to others. And tbh repeat offenders should be the easiest to catch; you have their details, you know what their tag looks like, should be pretty trivial. Especially when they do interviews with national newspapers confessing to continuing!
These active people and groups generally have a high level of knowledge and means to avoid anything from appearing as evidence, such as in public videos, where any parts that can show physical features are covered. After each operation, they will dispose of all clothes and shoes to ensure that individuals cannot be tracked and always wear gloves when handling spray paint cans to ensure that no fingerprints are left. Basically, their experience on Reddit is that it is difficult to locate them personally unless they are caught in the act.

These measures make it difficult for the police to obtain solid evidence or even confirm their identities, and if they return to continental Europe immediately, it will make the investigation impossible.
 

Pegpilot

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26 Mar 2020
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So sad to read this thread. I was part of LUL's efforts to combat graffiti in the early 90s and it seems we've learned nothing. We engaged back then with our friends in New York where, in the 80's, graffiti was out of control and definitely impacted seriously on ridership as the local population perceived the network to be effectively lawless. The MTA took a hard line approach and refused to release "bombed" cars for service (denial of the oxygen of publicity) and slowly clawed back the network. Check out the book "Subway Art" which explains the psyche of the "artists" in great detail. But an effective response requires leadership and commitment, and right now that seems in short supply - I was saddened at the state of 09 stock on my last visit to the capital in November.
 

Meerkat

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9,174
These active people and groups generally have a high level of knowledge and means to avoid anything from appearing as evidence, such as in public videos, where any parts that can show physical features are covered. After each operation, they will dispose of all clothes and shoes to ensure that individuals cannot be tracked and always wear gloves when handling spray paint cans to ensure that no fingerprints are left. Basically, their experience on Reddit is that it is difficult to locate them personally unless they are caught in the act.

These measures make it difficult for the police to obtain solid evidence or even confirm their identities, and if they return to continental Europe immediately, it will make the investigation impossible.
That’s why you need informers and tracking. Catch them on site.
Re interior tagging - is any of the Underground onboard CCTV live linked to a control room?
 

Mrwerdna1

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18 Jul 2018
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62
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The Continent
So sad to read this thread. I was part of LUL's efforts to combat graffiti in the early 90s and it seems we've learned nothing. We engaged back then with our friends in New York where, in the 80's, graffiti was out of control and definitely impacted seriously on ridership as the local population perceived the network to be effectively lawless. The MTA took a hard line approach and refused to release "bombed" cars for service (denial of the oxygen of publicity) and slowly clawed back the network. Check out the book "Subway Art" which explains the psyche of the "artists" in great detail. But an effective response requires leadership and commitment, and right now that seems in short supply - I was saddened at the state of 09 stock on my last visit to the capital in November.
I think you make some excellent points, a sad state of affairs, indeed.

I haven't engaged on this forum for quite some while now, but I was searching the web for any reaction to the current state of the tube. I have to say that on my two recent visits to the UK (I live on the continent right now), I was quite taken aback by how run down the Bakerloo Line Stock in particular seemed and I was also struck by how much graffiti there appeared to be. Stations and platforms seemed more or less similar to a few years back, if perhaps a bit grimier than before. But the difference in the rolling stock was truly staggering. I hadn't travelled on the Bakerloo line (or Tube for that matter) for quite some years before then. In fact, it may have been as far back as 2019, but I certainly don't remember much in the way of grafitti back then. The Tube may never have been as pristinely clean and tidy as the Vienna or Oslo Metro, but I do remember trains being a lot cleaner and in better nick pre-Covid, particularly around 2012/2013. So things do appear to have got a lot worse in the past few years and, it would seem, increasingly so.

Having read through the replies on this thread (pages 1 through 9), I thus conclude the following:

  • The Tube is generally in a worse state now than just 5-10 years ago (i.e. pre-Covid). Hard to say when it may have had its heyday in terms of state of repair & cleanliness, but perhaps somewhere around the early 2010s, would be my speculative guess.
  • The Tube is still in no way as bad as it has been in the past, for instance in the late 80s, but it is seemingly getting progressively worse.
  • The reasons for this gradual decline are somewhat complex, but appear to be a combination of:
    • bad management - the available funding is not allocated as well as it could be and, despite budget constraints, there seems to be little attention given to prioritising cleanliness and proper maintenance, particularly combatting graffiti, over other matters. Various posters have pointed out that given various rolling stock is either in need of constant repair (1972 stock) or in the process of refurbishment (1992 stock), this may warrant prioritising service levels over combatting grafitti, from the perspective of the operator. I wholeheartedly disagree, however. I believe that it is precisely this permissive attitude, a definitive slip in standards, that is, in addition to foolish social media trends, driving and further enabling vandalism to spread like wildfire. I don't think this is a matter of politics either. It is simply a case of observing what works and what doesn't and as had been pointed out, proper and decisive action is the only way forward. Moreover, failure to do so can have serious negative impacts on ridership, as the public, rightly or wrongly, may start to perceive the Tube to be increasingly a place of lawlessness, much like they did in the 80s.
    • lack of funding - fundamentally driven by succesive governments' ideological fixation on keeping subsidy low - but further exacerbated by disastrous changes to the funding model brought about by the previous conservative government, combined with the loss of most operating income for a prolonged period of time during the pandemic, without proper - functional - compensation by central government, have no doubt crippled Tfl's ability to make urgent long-term investments in proper maintenance and day-to-day operations.
    • bad governance structure and decisions - "managed decline" - particularly a string of flawed PPP projects that extracted profits from a supposedly publicly run system but culminated in worse overall service and particularly maintenance, including many bad decisions, seemingly insignificant at the time but whose negative knock-on effects would first rear their ugly head years down the line - that time unfortunately being now.
Fixing this whole mess seems far from straight forward, but I suspect a combination of thoroughly shaking down the management tree, coupled with a boost in funding could work wonders. More importantly though, the public, that being Londoners and visitors to the capital alike, need to make their dissatisfaction known and demand the government and Tfl take action.
 

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