Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair

[SynthD]

There are lawful graffiti artists, and no good way to tell them apart from the unlawful.

Disproportionate sentencing doesn’t solve anything.

 

[Meerkat]

There are lawful graffiti artists, and no good way to tell them apart from the unlawful.

Disproportionate sentencing doesn’t solve anything.

There is - do they do unlawful stuff!
You don’t think deterrence sentencing works?!

 

[43066]

You don’t think deterrence sentencing works?!

Can you point to some evidence that it does?

Extremely long prison sentences, and even the death penalty, don’t seem to be doing a good job of deterring crime in the USA.

 

[Gostav]

Can you point to some evidence that it does?

Extremely long prison sentences, and even the death penalty, don’t seem to be doing a good job of deterring crime in the USA.

I think there are some misunderstandings here, the general public has a persistent impression of graffiti artists as lower class people who paint at night or as far away from other people as possible. In this case, people are more or less sympathetic to the actions of these "artists", and any long prison sentences and high fines seem too much for them.

But a large number of biographies and YouTube videos show a completely different reality: graffiti artists act in an organized manner; they have all sorts of expensive equipment—spray cans, cameras, drones; they can afford to travel across countries; bombing trains - stopping trains in motion and completely graffitiing the cars - without any regard for delays and damage; some groups are highly aggressive and threaten anyone who tries to stop them, and there are even videos showing physical conflicts with passengers and employees; destroying surveillance cameras and protective nets.

In this case, punitive felonies do serve to deter most opportunists - they do not want into trouble and lose their high or middle standard of living.

1UP artists in hard work.

Of course, they produced videos, books, biographies for their meagre rewards. For example, https://www.unfade.eu/p/sabe-still-around-special-edition-2/

Hardcover books – from 15€ to 50€ or even 240€ and 675€ for special edition. All have ISBN number, which shows that they value their copyright of their hard work very much.

 

[Ghostbus]

Can you point to some evidence that it does?

Extremely long prison sentences, and even the death penalty, don’t seem to be doing a good job of deterring crime in the USA.

If anything, it is crimes being committed in a pre-planned manner and with zero reason for doing them other than the thrill of it, where punitive sentences are most effective.

That and the fact this is a very small section of society. It wouldn't take many many jail cells for it to be noticed among the tagger community that their choices have consequences. If your best mate is currently doing a year in a Category A prison, and the worst crime he or you have ever done is criminal damage, are you really grabbing your backpack and going tagging without any pause for thought? Not to be too crude, but these pretty young middle class men have a lot to fear from hardened criminals inside.

And unlike say knife crime, I doubt anyone can seriously say peer pressure (as in fear of fatal injury or even death at the hands of your peers) is driving them to make choices they would otherwise not make.

And if these people are operating as criminal gangs for whom tagging is just the tip of the iceberg, which I really doubt, then there is even more reason to exploit their stupidity and use the mountain of evidence they leave in tagging expeditions, to identify, prosecute and jail them.

 

[Meerkat]

Can you point to some evidence that it does?

Extremely long prison sentences, and even the death penalty, don’t seem to be doing a good job of deterring crime in the USA.

Depends on the crime. Lower level crime is more likely to be discouraged by harsh penalties, and harsh penalties are needed to make up for a low likelihood of getting caught.

If you got rid of the points and just had fines I’m pretty sure speeding would significantly increase, and the loss of licence is a massive deterrence to drink driving.

 

[Deepgreen]

Public Private Partnership

Yes, but as someone who endured it in my career (and who predicted its failure), 'P*ss Poor Policy' is at least as accurate!

 

[43066]

I think there are some misunderstandings here, the general public has a persistent impression of graffiti artists as lower class people who paint at night or as far away from other people as possible. In this case, people are more or less sympathetic to the actions of these "artists", and any long prison sentences and high fines seem too much for them.

But a large number of biographies and YouTube videos show a completely different reality: graffiti artists act in an organized manner; they have all sorts of expensive equipment—spray cans, cameras, drones; they can afford to travel across countries; bombing trains - stopping trains in motion and completely graffitiing the cars - without any regard for delays and damage; some groups are highly aggressive and threaten anyone who tries to stop them, and there are even videos showing physical conflicts with passengers and employees; destroying surveillance cameras and protective nets.

In this case, punitive felonies do serve to deter most opportunists - they do not want into trouble and lose their high or middle standard of living.

No misunderstanding - I agree that graffiti should not he tolerated where it is on public property. However the most effective measure to prevent this is swift removal. This is something LU seem incredibly good at, despite the thread title. Partly this is because their depot locations are fewer in number and better protected than the mainline, of course.

On the other hand I don’t think “deterrent sentencing” works - it relies on the person being caught, for one thing, which is highly unlikely in the case of tagging.

Depends on the crime. Lower level crime is more likely to be discouraged by harsh penalties, and harsh penalties are needed to make up for a low likelihood of getting caught.

If you got rid of the points and just had fines I’m pretty sure speeding would significantly increase, and the loss of licence is a massive deterrence to drink driving.

So no evidence you can point to, then. Much as I suspected.

It’s a much, much bigger subject that we can discuss here, but you read around the subject you’ll find there’s scant evidence that “deterrence sentencing” works at all. Harsh penalties don’t in any way “make up” for a low likelihood of being caught, nor for the fact that many malfeasors won’t be aware of the penalties anyway.

Funnily enough the people who go around tagging tube trains don’t tend to be that big on reading criminology text books, or studying Sentencing Council guidelines.

 

[Gostav]

Funnily enough the people who go around tagging tube trains don’t tend to be that big on reading criminology text books, or studying Sentencing Council guidelines.

You may mistake again, they know that clearly:

Als sie mich eingesperrt hatten, habe ich mir gedacht, egal, nach 48 Stunden werden die mich sowieso wieder freilassen müssen, so wie es bei uns in Europa üblich ist.

When they locked me up, I thought to myself, it doesn't matter, after 48 hours they will have to release me anyway, as is usual in Europe. (Google translate)

Wir haben unsere Kleidung stets gewechselt beim Malen und danach weggeschmissen, ausser einer halt. Der immer diesselben Schuhe getragen hat.

We always changed our clothes while painting and then threw them away afterwards, except for one person who always wore the same shoes. (Google translate)

INTERVIEW – Daor in Japan [DEUTSCH] 03/2013

ilovegraffiti.de

 

[Gooner18]

Having recently been using the LU frequently over the last few months I have to say I’m disgusted at the state of the trains on some of its lines , specifically central, Piccadilly and Bakerloo trains are completely covered in graffiti it’s disgusting, almost a throw back to the 80’s/ early 90’s with how expensive it is to travel on the system it’s totally unacceptable!

I’ve also noticed that the air quality seems to be pretty poor ( dust ) especially on the Victoria line!

All in all I can’t wait to stop using the system a) so I don’t feel so dirty and b) to save myself plenty of money for the privilege of feeling dirty.

 

[Mawkie]

Do we really need yet another thread about the state of trains?

 

[Gooner18]

Do we really need yet another thread about the state of trains?

Don’t post on it then ‍♂️

 

[Silent]

Having recently been using the LU frequently over the last few months I have to say I’m disgusted at the state of the trains on some of its lines , specifically central, Piccadilly and Bakerloo trains are completely covered in graffiti it’s disgusting, almost a throw back to the 80’s/ early 90’s with how expensive it is to travel on the system it’s totally unacceptable!

I’ve also noticed that the air quality seems to be pretty poor ( dust ) especially on the Victoria line!

All in all I can’t wait to stop using the system a) so I don’t feel so dirty and b) to save myself plenty of money for the privilege of feeling dirty.

I think they need to apart out the ventilation and air quality on the Victoria and northern lines especially though that’s really hard to do especially with frequent service so I would expect those to actually be sorted out maybe in 30 years. I heard the train wash machines are broken for some lines so they are harder to clean. A few months ago the met line trains seemed dirtier externally than they are now though.

 

[TheSmiths82]

Having just come back from London I was shocked just how bad some of the Bakerloo lines were, full of gravity and the lights that were flickering on and enough on the approach to E&C didn't inspire confidence!

 

[Brooke]

The Central Line is a shocker. There has been a very noticeable and sudden shift from virtually graffiti free to heavily tagged inside and outside on many trains.

Presumably this is a result of a deliberate policy change by TFL to allow trains out in service like this?

Does anyone know the reason why the policy shift (assuming that is the reason)?

 

[SynthD]

Does anyone know the reason why the policy shift (assuming that is the reason)?

1992 stock Refurbishment?

I was travelling past Derby a few days ago and saw a 1992 stock car in one of the sheds at (I assume) Bombardier. It reminded me that they were supposed to be receiving modifications but I haven’t heard much of that programme. Is there any news on what’s happening with the refurbishment? Thanks :)

www.railforums.co.uk

They are taking trains out for this project.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

After quite a lengthy Central Line outing a few weeks ago, this is what the reality of vandalism on TFL now!

 

[RT4038]

It is probably just another way of trying to get more money out of Central Government for TfL. 'Look at how terrible the state of trains in the Capital......'

 

[TheSmiths82]

After quite a lengthy Central Line outing a few weeks ago, this is what the reality of vandalism on TFL now!

Are they tagging the trains while in service or or they are breaking into depots?

 

[erikvd28]

Are they tagging the trains while in service or or they are breaking into depots?

I saw during a ride on the Bakerloo line during evening rush hour someone tagging the inside door! He looked at me strangely later because he probably saw me looking at him tagging..

 

[Silent]

Sometimes the graffiti on a Bakerloo line though is a vibe and interesting to look at

 

[350401]

Do we really need yet another thread about the state of trains?

Yes, because the state of the trains is quite frankly, a disgrace. I suspect LUL management may want to bury their head in the sand about it, but it needs to be frequently discussed - hopefully eventually it will become embarrassing enough to do something about. I personally avoid the Bakerloo, Central and Piccadilly lines as much as I can, either using the Elizabeth line, or Uber. I understand money is tight, but this is basic stuff, and TfL need to focus on getting it right.

 

[bramling]

Sometimes the graffiti on a Bakerloo line though is a vibe and interesting to look at

Can’t agree. I suspect the majority of people take the view that it gives the impression that London is a lawless dump of a city.

TFL need to get on top of this scourge.

 

[announcements]

I guess when the going gets tough the trains will still take you from A to B. I would rather they focus on getting mobile coverage over the line, but in an ideal world they'd be able to spend on both. It all comes down to cash availability and prioritisation.

 

[Thirteen]

This idea that TfL don't care about the Tube trains or that London is a lawless city is frankly a load of baloney. It's down to money and there's so many things that need to be done but the cash is in short supply.

 

[bramling]

This idea that TfL don't care about the Tube trains or that London is a lawless city is frankly a load of baloney. It's down to money and there's so many things that need to be done but the cash is in short supply.

It really isn’t all down to money. Firstly, vandalism is a crime, so it falls within the BTP’s remit. Clearly TFL aren’t working effectively with the BTP to tackle these issues, so that comes down to management. Secondly it’s a question of priorities and management focus.

 

[Silent]

Can’t agree. I suspect the majority of people take the view that it gives the impression that London is a lawless dump of a city.

TFL need to get on top of this scourge.

The external colourful graffiti. But then I would hate if the s stock or 24ts had that much graffiti.

 

[Brooke]

It really isn’t all down to money. Firstly, vandalism is a crime, so it falls within the BTP’s remit. Clearly TFL aren’t working effectively with the BTP to tackle these issues, so that comes down to management. Secondly it’s a question of priorities and management focus.

I agree.

If it was about money, surely it would have gradually worsened as budgets got tighter over the years. Instead, there has been a sudden and notable lurch on the Central from no graffiti to every car tagged throughout.

So to an outsider like me it would seem a deliberate decision has been made by management to stop working on the problem, I would guess somewhere around the summer of 2024.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I agree.

If it was about money, surely it would have gradually worsened as budgets got tighter over the years. Instead, there has been a sudden and notable lurch on the Central from no graffiti to every car tagged throughout.

So to an outsider like me it would seem a deliberate decision has been made by management to stop working on the problem, I would guess somewhere around the summer of 2024.

Seems rather too coincidental that it's mainly affecting the Bakerloo, Central and Piccadilly lines - which just happen to be the fleets with trains out of use for modifications/refurb/heavy maintenance - certainly with the latter two attracting threads on here regarding the reduced levels of service due to trains being out of use. I expect keeping mechanically sound trains in service is taking priority over cosmetic issues. No, it doesn't look good, but it's hard to argue that even fewer trains in service is the better option.

 

[450.emu]

The Central Line is a shocker. There has been a very noticeable and sudden shift from virtually graffiti free to heavily tagged inside and outside on many trains.

Presumably this is a result of a deliberate policy change by TFL to allow trains out in service like this?

Does anyone know the reason why the policy shift (assuming that is the reason)?

TfL bet the house on the unwanted Silvertown Tunnel which will now cost £4 to use each way...

Bakerloo Line goes through some dicey estates at it's northern end, and is stabled above ground at Queens Park, another rough area for taggers. The 55 year old trains despite minor refresh and PIS system have always looked down at heel.

I saw some Metropolitan Line trains covered in graffiti too which is a shame. There may not be enough clean spares to put out in service, as soon as one set is cleaned, another is tagged. Even the North Circular Road in Finchley is starting to look rough, questionable Academy school nearby, plus sprawling estate is the perfect storm. It's occasionally cleaned but just gives them a fresh canvas.