InterCity 125 HST memories; past, current and future trips on HSTs

[Peter C]

There’s no engines under there! Maybe the aircon system?

Oh! I thought it would have been a bit weird to have engines under them. I never noticed any aircon sounds when I travelled on them!

-Peter

 

[Peter C]

It wasn't an actual diesel engine but it was what sounded like an engine. I think that's why when they were new in 1976, they were first / still now technically classed as DEMU's as the Mark 3 coaches were, in effect, multiple units.

OK - when I was younger I assumed that they were DMUs purely because all of the other trains on the Cotswold Line were DMUs. I don't think I've actually ridden on a locomotive-hauled train on the national network apart from the HSTs (and the NYMR to Whitby).

On a slightly different note, has anyone taken - I mean "borrowed" () anything from a HST set? On the last day, I will admit to taking an antimacassar, as they were only held on by Velcro and seen as they were on the last run of the day (and the last one up the Cotswold Line) I thought it wouldn't hurt. The coach was quite full of people doing the same thing.
I also have a few window labels from eBay.

-Peter

 

[hexagon789]

They also made 125mph travel on the GWML possible, if I remember correctly. (?)

Yes, before them the GWML was 100mph max, since at least the early 1970s. Certainly 100 in 1972.

Restarting this thread is no problem at all !

For a while now (possibly 2 years), I've been keen to know what the "engines" are underneath the Mark 3 coaches used for the HST. There's been some that have had a quiet 12-cylinder sound underneath which is one thing I enjoyed about the HST's.

There aren't any underfloor engines in Mk3s, hence why they are so quiet and generally lauded for it.

Oh - I never knew that there was any kind of engine underneath the floor of the Mk3s!

There aren't actually

 

[43096]

It wasn't an actual diesel engine but it was what sounded like an engine. I think that's why when they were new in 1976, they were first / still now technically classed as DEMU's as the Mark 3 coaches were, in effect, multiple units.

Wibble! They were not classified as units because of the sound they made. And I would point out that the prototype set was classified as locos and coaches when built.

 

[Peter C]

Yes, before them the GWML was 100mph max, since at least the early 1970s. Certainly 100 in 1972.

Interesting. It is amazing that these stop-gaps managed to change so much about the railway. If it wasn't for these engines, BR could have been in big trouble (even bigger than it actually was) after the APT gave everyone motion sickness and spilt tea in their laps!

-Peter

 

[hexagon789]

It wasn't an actual diesel engine but it was what sounded like an engine. I think that's why when they were new in 1976, they were first / still now technically classed as DEMU's as the Mark 3 coaches were, in effect, multiple units.

The prototype was classified loco-hauled; the production ones were originally DEMUs hence the 253/254 classification. Once it was realised it was too difficult to keep the same power cars married to the same trailers (and indeed the same trailers together sometimes) it was decided to reclassify them as Class 43 locos and Mk3 HST coaches.

HSTs can't be operated on multiple per se, certainly not multiple sets in normal traffic as with say a French TGV, so I'm not sure they can be said to be DEMUs, more fixed formation loco-hauled push-pull sets.

 

[Peter C]

The prototype was classified loco-hauled; the production ones were originally DEMUs hence the 253/254 classification. Once it was realised it was too difficult to keep the same power cars married to the same trailers (and indeed the same trailers together sometimes) it was decided to reclassify them as Class 43 locos and Mk3 HST coaches.

HSTs can't be operated on multiple per se, certainly not multiple sets in normal traffic as with say a French TGV, so I'm not sure they can be said to be DEMUs, more fixed formation loco-hauled push-pull sets.

Why would it be so difficult to keep the engines and coaches together? This is something which has always confused me. Is it because when an engine goes to the depot for an examination they are split from the coaching stock, therefore essentially making it a "fair game" for as to which engine gets them next?*

*Not a "fair game" but the railway equivalent - the engines which need the coaches next get whatever's on offer.

-Peter

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting. It is amazing that these stop-gaps managed to change so much about the railway. If it wasn't for these engines, BR could have been in big trouble (even bigger than it actually was) after the APT gave everyone motion sickness and spilt tea in their laps!

-Peter

At one time the GWML was technically unrestricted. Certainly it is on certain sections in 1958, by 1960 it had a 90mph linespeed.

Only initially, they sorted out the tilt system after that fateful trip and I believe it gave no further trouble. The initial issue was cancelling out all the sensation of taking a curve by tilting at the full 9 degrees, that was reduced to 8 maximum so passengers could still "feel" the curve and this made most passengers less prone to motion sickness.

 

[Peter C]

At one time the GWML was technically unrestricted. Certainly it is on certain sections in 1958, by 1960 it had a 90mph linespeed.

Only initially, they sorted out the tilt system after that fateful trip and I believe it gave no further trouble. The initial issue was cancelling out all the sensation of taking a curve by tilting at the full 9 degrees, that was reduced to 8 maximum so passengers could still "feel" the curve and this made most passengers less prone to motion sickness.

OK. Thanks for the info. I don't know much about the ATP.

-Peter

 

[hexagon789]

Why would it be so difficult to keep the engines and coaches together? This is something which has always confused me. Is it because when an engine goes to the depot for an examination they are split from the coaching stock, therefore essentially making it a "fair game" for as to which engine gets them next?*

*Not a "fair game" but the railway equivalent - the engines which need the coaches next get whatever's on offer.

-Peter

Because the trailers might be alright for traffic but the power car might need more serious maintenance, so they stick on a spare power car to allow the set to run in traffic.

I'm not sure the maintenance cycles for power cars and trailers are the same either, perhaps someone can confirm that though.

 

[Peter C]

Because the trailers might be alright for traffic but the power car might need more serious maintenance, so they stick on a spare power car to allow the set to run in traffic.

I'm not sure the maintenance cycles for power cars and trailers are the same either, perhaps someone can confirm that though.

OK. Thanks. In a perfect world, they would all need maintenance at the same time and could be serviced together, as one set.

-Peter

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

When I went to Leeds on the 04/04/19 (because of Advance Singles I caught the ever-reliable 14:13 from Oxford to Birmingham New Street then the 16:03 from there to Leeds). For the 16:03, I selected table seat 5 in Coach G as I wanted to try the Quiet Coach for the first time since I think January 2016 on GWR services and in like 18 years on XC routes *.

If you don't mind have luggage with you and you want a relaxing journey with hardly anyone stood next to you throughout the entire trip (I think any XC HST trip that means being on there at say gone 20:30) then do that. What made that Leeds trip extra nice was that seat 5 in Coach G was forwards.

I'm considering doing the Quiet Coach next year - according to the online seating layout, there's space for your luggage where the 4 table seats in roughly the centre of Coach G are. There's no rack but space underneath the seats basically.

The Quiet Coach rules were respected too - I think every window in Coach G there was a 'Quiet Zone' rule.

The Quiet Coach is an excellent alternative to First Class (I'd recommend it)! What a shame there's now not many of these on XC services - in late InterCity days and early Virgin Trains days there was and if the Voyagers were built as say 8 or 9 coaches then I presume there would have been.

 

[cactustwirly]

When I went to Leeds on the 04/04/19 (because of Advance Singles I caught the ever-reliable 14:13 from Oxford to Birmingham New Street then the 16:03 from there to Leeds). For the 16:03, I selected table seat 5 in Coach G as I wanted to try the Quiet Coach for the first time since I think January 2016 on GWR services and in like 18 years on XC routes *.

If you don't mind have luggage with you and you want a relaxing journey with hardly anyone stood next to you throughout the entire trip (I think any XC HST trip that means being on there at say gone 20:30 then do that). What made that Leeds trip extra nice was that seat 5 in Coach G was forwards.

I'm considering doing the Quiet Coach next year - according to the online seating layout, there's space for your luggage where the 4 table seats in roughly the centre of Coach G are. There's no rack but space underneath the seats basically.

The Quiet Coach rules were respected too - I think every window in Coach G there was a 'Quiet Zone' rule.

The Quiet Coach is an excellent alternative to First Class (I'd recommend it)! What a shame there's now not many of these on XC services - in late InterCity days and early Virgin Trains days there was and if the Voyagers were built as say 8 or 9 coaches then I presume there would have been.

I don't see the point of the quiet coach anyway as the normal coaches are pretty quiet anyway.

The Voyagers used to have them in coach F but XC removed them as they caused more trouble than they were worth.
EMT doesn't have any either

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I don't see the point of the quiet coach anyway as the normal coaches are pretty quiet anyway.

The Voyagers used to have them in coach F but XC removed them as they caused more trouble than they were worth.
EMT doesn't have any either

The star symbol meant that my first trip in a Quiet Coach was on a Virgin XC HST from Didcot Parkway to Bournemouth in like August 2001 in the morning. I was brought up to respect and Mum reminded me (I wasn't aware of a Quiet Coach at the time) which is where I became aware of the Quiet Coach.

It was ages ago now when I realised that my first trip or train trip to Bournemouth (on the Virgin XC HST mentioned in the above paragraph) I sat next to the power car! I didn't take much notice with the Valentas back then as I didn't know the different types of train engines back then.

 

[43096]

Interesting. It is amazing that these stop-gaps managed to change so much about the railway. If it wasn't for these engines, BR could have been in big trouble (even bigger than it actually was) after the APT gave everyone motion sickness and spilt tea in their laps!

-Peter

The idea that HST was a stopgap is one of those "urban myths" that has grown. BR were never going to buy brand new trains for a 10 or 15 year life - to think otherwise is utterly fanciful. Once APT had become an electric train, it was always going to be restricted in which routes it would operate given the lack of electrification.

APT motion sickness was also something of an over-reported issue - probably because the journalists reporting it had over indulged on alcohol (in stereotypical journalist fashion - see Private Eye's "Lunchtime O'Booze").

 

[Peter C]

The idea that HST was a stopgap is one of those "urban myths" that has grown. BR were never going to buy brand new trains for a 10 or 15 year life - to think otherwise is utterly fanciful. Once APT had become an electric train, it was always going to be restricted in which routes it would operate given the lack of electrification.

APT motion sickness was also something of an over-reported issue - probably because the journalists reporting it had over indulged on alcohol (in stereotypical journalist fashion - see Private Eye's "Lunchtime O'Booze").

Oh OK. Thanks - it's just that a lot of media does say that they were a stop-gap. But I'll go with you.

-Peter

 

[43096]

Why would it be so difficult to keep the engines and coaches together? This is something which has always confused me. Is it because when an engine goes to the depot for an examination they are split from the coaching stock, therefore essentially making it a "fair game" for as to which engine gets them next?*

*Not a "fair game" but the railway equivalent - the engines which need the coaches next get whatever's on offer.

-Peter

It's pretty obvious really: a diesel locomotive is going to need more maintenance than the coaches it hauls. You have engine, cooler group, alternator, traction motors, control system, driver safety systems etc on top of what a coach has.

Initially HSTs were kept as fixed formations, as this helped maintenance planning. With sets going "off region" to Derby for overhaul every year initially, the WR thought it advantageous to keep them as planned formations so a complete set could be sent for overhaul with it being split on arrival with trailers going into Litchurch Lane and power cars to Derby Locomotive Works. The interval between overhauls was pushed out over time as experience was gained and it became clear the sets were being over-maintained. The biggest change, though, was the start of Component Exchange Maintenance (CEM) in 1987/88 where depots were upgraded to do the overhaul work.

 

[Peter C]

It's pretty obvious really: a diesel locomotive is going to need more maintenance than the coaches it hauls. You have engine, cooler group, alternator, traction motors, control system, driver safety systems etc on top of what a coach has.

Initially HSTs were kept as fixed formations, as this helped maintenance planning. With sets going "off region" to Derby for overhaul every year initially, the WR thought it advantageous to keep them as planned formations so a complete set could be sent for overhaul with it being split on arrival with trailers going into Litchurch Lane and power cars to Derby Locomotive Works. The interval between overhauls was pushed out over time as experience was gained and it became clear the sets were being over-maintained. The biggest change, though, was the start of Component Exchange Maintenance (CEM) in 1987/88 where depots were upgraded to do the overhaul work.

Fair. Thanks for the extra info.


-Peter

 

[30907]

Oh OK. Thanks - it's just that a lot of media does say that they were a stop-gap. But I'll go with you.

-Peter

Perhaps stop-gap in the sense that people thought of electrification as the long term solution? (Please don't start THAT discussion!).

 

[Peter C]

Perhaps stop-gap in the sense that people thought of electrification as the long term solution? (Please don't start THAT discussion!).

In the Intercity 125 documentary on Channel 5 with that bloke off Who wants to be a millionaire they said it wasn't designed to be a long-term idea IIRC.

-Peter

 

[43096]

In the Intercity 125 documentary on Channel 5 with that bloke off Who wants to be a millionaire they said it wasn't designed to be a long-term idea IIRC.

-Peter

Just repeating the urban myth.

 

[Peter C]

Just repeating the urban myth.

OK. Thanks.

-Peter

 

[hexagon789]

OK. Thanks. In a perfect world, they would all need maintenance at the same time and could be serviced together, as one set.

-Peter

I think a loco is always going to need heavier maintenance than coaches tbh

 

[Peter C]

I think a loco is always going to need heavier maintenance than coaches tbh

Fair point.
-Peter

 

[Rhydgaled]

The idea that HST was a stopgap is one of those "urban myths" that has grown. BR were never going to buy brand new trains for a 10 or 15 year life - to think otherwise is utterly fanciful. Once APT had become an electric train, it was always going to be restricted in which routes it would operate given the lack of electrification.

This 1981 electrification plan suggested that the 'standard working life' of a 'HST Power car' was expected to be 25 years (10 years less than an electric locomotive), with some other diesel locomotives being given 30 years and hauled coaches 30-40 years. So in that sense the expected working life of an IC125 was slightly less than a normal diesel loco-hauled train. So not a 10-year stop-gap, but not built to last as long as they did either.

 

[Cowley]

This 1981 electrification plan suggested that the 'standard working life' of a 'HST Power car' was expected to be 25 years (10 years less than an electric locomotive), with some other diesel locomotives being given 30 years and hauled coaches 30-40 years. So in that sense the expected working life of an IC125 was slightly less than a normal diesel loco-hauled train. So not a 10-year stop-gap, but not built to last as long as they did either.

Although I guess length of life is somewhat different to the amount of miles they were expected to cover vs a standard diesel locomotive.

 

[Taunton]

At one time the GWML was technically unrestricted. Certainly it is on certain sections in 1958, by 1960 it had a 90mph linespeed.

This was an old GWR tradition, where in the Sectional Appendix it was stated "The speed may be as high as required".

Churchward must have got the Saint balancing just right; a 2-cylinder express loco that didn't exhibit signs of "boxing" (that is lateral left-right swaying at speed from the alternating piston thrusts) and were quite happy at the highest speeds. Tuplin reckoned they got 120mph out of one once, running light. Probably an exaggeration, but only a bit.

Why would it be so difficult to keep the engines and coaches together?

Because any fault typically afflicts a single vehicle, not the complete set. It was always notable that traditional dmus on the WR were kept in their original formation far more than on other regions, sometimes for much of the lifetime of the unit, whereas elsewhere they were all scrambled up within weeks. Keeping the HST on the road followed this pattern.

There was a Modern Railways article shortly after the ECML HST introduction about a night shift at Bounds Green, where a Class 08 had been fitted with a buckeye specifically to shunt the vehicles around - and on that night it was needed. One surprising shunt was that the aircon had failed on a restaurant car. The stores did not have a spare aircon module. But the depot did have a spare restaurant car. Cue the 08.

 

[Peter C]

This was an old GWR tradition, where in the Sectional Appendix it was stated "The speed may be as high as required".

Churchward must have got the Saint balancing just right; a 2-cylinder express loco that didn't exhibit signs of "boxing" (that is lateral left-right swaying at speed from the alternating piston thrusts) and were quite happy at the highest speeds. Tuplin reckoned they got 120mph out of one once, running light. Probably an exaggeration, but only a bit.

Because any fault typically afflicts a single vehicle, not the complete set. It was always notable that traditional dmus on the WR were kept in their original formation far more than on other regions, sometimes for much of the lifetime of the unit, whereas elsewhere they were all scrambled up within weeks. Keeping the HST on the road followed this pattern.

There was a Modern Railways article shortly after the ECML HST introduction about a night shift at Bounds Green, where a Class 08 had been fitted with a buckeye specifically to shunt the vehicles around - and on that night it was needed. One surprising shunt was that the aircon had failed on a restaurant car. The stores did not have a spare aircon module. But the depot did have a spare restaurant car. Cue the 08.

Interesting. Thanks.

-Peter

 

[hexagon789]

This was an old GWR tradition, where in the Sectional Appendix it was stated "The speed may be as high as required".

Churchward must have got the Saint balancing just right; a 2-cylinder express loco that didn't exhibit signs of "boxing" (that is lateral left-right swaying at speed from the alternating piston thrusts) and were quite happy at the highest speeds. Tuplin reckoned they got 120mph out of one once, running light. Probably an exaggeration, but only a bit.

A tradition which seems to have lasted until the HSTs received overspeed governors

 

[Rhydgaled]

The topic title mentions 'tributes' so here's my tribute video of the IC125's time on the Pembroke Coast Express.