Is Delay Repay due in this case?

[Par]

My daughter travelled yesterday from York to Oxford using the return portion of an off-peak return, and because of engineering the usual direct Cross-Country service was not available.

She travelled instead via Kings Cross and Paddington, with a reservation on the 21.42 service from Paddington to Oxford (due to arrive 22.53), however this service simply did not run, and was therefore forced to travel on the 21.45 service to Didcot Parkway and take a bus onwards from there to Oxford.

She eventually reached Oxford at 00.30.

Two questions:-

1) Is Delay Repay applicable in this case and from whom should she apply (presumably Great Western)?

2) Why did the 21.42 to Oxford not run as advertised and when was it known that it would not do so (she made the reservation only a week ago)?

Thanks for your help and apologies if this is posted in the wrong section - Mods please move as required.

 

[dave87016]

As you said she had a reservation for the 21:42 service from Paddington and it didn't run then yes she is entitled to delay repay but having said that a quick look at RTT shows that the 21:42pm from Paddington to Oxford DID run and on that balance I would have to say that delay repay is NOT available

 

[crehld]

1) Is Delay Repay applicable in this case and from whom should she apply (presumably Great Western)?

If the 2142 to Oxford did not run then yes delay repay is applicable and should be sought from Great Western.

2) Why did the 21.42 to Oxford not run as advertised and when was it known that it would not do so (she made the reservation only a week ago)?

According to Realtimetrains, the 21:42 Paddington to Oxford did run yesterday:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P01342/2015/11/08

Was it not displayed on the departure boards at Paddington?

 

[Par]

Was it not displayed on the departure boards at Paddington?

She says not, plus she asked, however Realtime Trains says otherwise, so I guess there is no point in pursuing this.

Thanks for your help

 

[crehld]

She says not, plus she asked, however Realtime Trains says otherwise, so I guess there is no point in pursuing this.

Thanks for your help

I don't know. IF the departure screens did not show the departure and IF staff advised her it was cancelled / not running then I say you have grounds for a claim. If this is the cases she made all reasonable efforts to determine the running status of the train and once it was confirmed to her it was not running she boarded the next available service ... although I'd make sure your daughter is very sure of those two IF statements before submitting anything.

 

[dzug2]

The 2142 may have been shown as a Worcester train - which was its ultimate destination.

 

[James Wake]

I think this is just as case of confusion as well. The train ran, she must have thought the 2142 to Worcester was not her train, although the calling points would have been listed. They do sometimes take trains off the board a few minutes before departure, so it depends what time the passenger arrived at Paddington.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Although if the staff knew nothing about it, then she does have grounds for a complaint.

 

[Haywain]

Just a technicality, but Great Western Railway do not operate delay repay. Instead they offer compensation under their Passengers Charter which tends to be more restricted.

 

[Par]

I haven't spoken to her about it yet (just email) however her tube to Paddington was held at a signal for 20 minutes meaning she arrived only at 20.40 (for the 20.42) so I guess it is possible that the display was removed by this time?

Also, the ultimate destination wasn't Oxford, so that probably added to the confusion. She did say she asked a member of staff though.

Ultimately the service did run so I accept that a claim is not possible.

Thanks again.

 

[dzug2]

She will probably get back the tube fare if she complains to TfL - in excess of 15 minutes delay

 

[maniacmartin]

Did she hold a through ticket, or was it split tickets?
What tickets did she hold?

Was she travelling on an official itinerary? If not, how long did she allow between trains to cross London?

 

[Par]

Did she hold a through ticket, or was it split tickets?
What tickets did she hold?

Was she travelling on an official itinerary? If not, how long did she allow between trains to cross London?

She was travelling on the return portion of a Super Off-Peak Oxford to York ticket thus:-

Dep York 18.53 - Arr Kings X 20.48

Dep Paddington 21.42 - Arr Oxford 22.53

Apparently the East Coast service was about 10 down into Kings X, plus the tube was held for 20 minutes. It was a fully through ticket with a valid itinerary and enough time for a connection (in my opinion anyway)

She arrived at Paddington at 21.40 and couldn't locate her train, although I fully accept that it did run.

 

[PermitToTravel]

That is a valid connection. I guess she'd look at claiming from East Coast, given the train into London arrived late (and she might have been able to catch the train from Paddington had this not happened), although I'm not sure how she ought handle this had she arrived in London on time.

 

[Mag_seven]

She arrived at Paddington at 21.40 and couldn't locate her train, although I fully accept that it did run.

they cease to advertise trains 2 mins prior to departure a policy which is completely wrong IMHO - at that time of night and on a Sunday 30 seconds prior to departure time would be suffice.

 

[yorkie]

She was travelling on the return portion of a Super Off-Peak Oxford to York ticket thus:-

Dep York 18.53 - Arr Kings X 20.48

Dep Paddington 21.42 - Arr Oxford 22.53

Apparently the East Coast service was about 10 down into Kings X, plus the tube was held for 20 minutes. It was a fully through ticket with a valid itinerary and enough time for a connection (in my opinion anyway)

She arrived at Paddington at 21.40 and couldn't locate her train, although I fully accept that it did run.

That changes everything!

In that case, I'd claim from East Coast as they caused the initial delay.

The VTEC train appears to have been logged as arriving at 2059 (11 late), and 43 minutes to get off an arrival at KGX onto a departure from PAD is not considered sufficient time by the rail industry. Though if the LU train had not been delayed then, in practice, she would have made it. But that doesn't alter the fact it was the VTEC train that caused the initial delay and thus Delay Repay does apply.

 

[gray1404]

I totally agree about claiming from East Coast - remember to select cheque as payment method on the claim form - on the basis that the delay to their train caused her not to have enough time to corss London.

Would she also be able to claim from LU as she was still hel at a signal for over 15 minutes.

It is just wrong that trains are taken off departure boards at Paddington 2 minutes before departure. Totally wrong! I'd complain to GWR about this. Are there any other stations where something similar happens?

 

[maniacmartin]

Now that we have the full story, I agree that she should claim from East Coast in this case as they caused the initial delay.

An interesting hypothetical question would what her claim rights would be if the East Coast train was on time, but the Underground was extremely delayed causing her to miss the Paddington train. Would LU or either of the TOCs award Delay Repay or similar at a value proportional to the ticket price? I'm not so sure

 

[Par]

I note from Realtime Trains that 1E99 was indeed 11 late into Kings X.

We will now get on the case with claiming from Virgin East Coast.

Thanks for all the advice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
OK an update, here are my daughters words (verbatim) from her experience at Paddington:-

"I did speak to a member of staff at Paddington, this was at 9:40 and I asked where was the train to Oxford at 9:42 because the next one on the board was the 9:43 to Didcot parkway, there was no 9:42 train at all, I didn't know it was gong to Worcester but I was aware oxford might not be it's final destination so I was checking all the stations it said it was calling at. Anyway I spoke to the guy and he said there is none, so I asked how to get to Oxford and he said go to Didcot parkway and get the bus, the I said ok so just to check there've been no trains running to Oxford from this station and he said no so I ran and got the 9:43."

In my opinion not a very a good service or advice from the station staff for a sole female passenger travelling fairly late into the evening!

 

[ainsworth74]

Are there any other stations where something similar happens?

It happens all over the network...

 

[PermitToTravel]

If we're talking about the screen at the bottom of the escalator coming from the Bakerloo line station then it'd pretty difficult to get on a train from there that's departing in less than two minutes, without running and/or shoving people out of the way

 

[greatkingrat]

In my opinion not a very a good service or advice from the station staff for a sole female passenger travelling fairly late into the evening!

What is the member of staff supposed to say? Even if he knew there was a Worcester train about to depart, they can't advise passengers to sprint along the platform and try and dive on while the doors are closing.

It could have been worse, if the Worcester train had been shown on the boards, your daughter may have ended up just missing it, then missing the 2143 to Didcot as well.

 

[Par]

An update on this.

We submitted a online Delay Repay claim with Virgin East Coast on the basis that their late arrival into Kings X meant that the minimum transfer time (45 minutes I understand) was not available.

My daughter's ultimate arrival at Oxford was at approximately 00.15 having travelled via Didcot Parkway and onwards from there by rail replacement bus.

The original booked service (Paddington to Oxford) was Dep 21.42 - arrive 22.53, meaning that her arrival at Oxford was 82 minutes later than it should have been had the booked connection been made. The 21.42 was the last direct train to Oxford that day.

VTEC has now replied by letter apologising for the fact that their service was late and that their Passenger Charter entitles compensation in such cases, therefore because the delay was over 30 minutes compensation is indeed due. A cheque is to follow for £20.65, which equates to 25% (or 50% or the return portion if that makes sense) of the ticket price paid (£82.50 Super Off-Peak with 16-25 Railcard). I would have expected that a 82 minutes delay should have triggered a 100% refund, so about £41.25?

Have I got this wrong (and I'll readily hold my hands up if I have), or are VTEC wrong, and what advice would anyone offer?

Should we await the cheque, cash it, and then claim the remainder (if indeed it is due) or should we get on the case with VTEC now, and try and obtain the full refund (if applicable)?

Thanks in advance

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just go back to them and explain you're claiming for the entire journey, not the VTEC delay. They tend to be OK at sorting it out.

 

[crehld]

As Artic Troll says, reply explaining that you are claiming for the entire journey which was over 60 minutes delayed.

This is the issue which many TOC online delay repay forms which often force you to choose only the stations that particular TOC operates and not give the opportunity to provide additional information. So interpretation of the claim often rests on their particular leg of the journey, rather than the journey as a whole. Although if I recall correctly VTEC's lets you choose any station on the rail network, so shouldn't have been an issue here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of this may be that it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to write an automated system that checked for a direct journey between two points, which will be most journeys. I think they don't however make it clear enough that the claim is for the whole ticketed/completed journey, though, so some will lose out (and similarly some will gain unfairly - it is quite possible that a train can be delayed 30 minutes or even more, but have no effect whatsoever on the end to end journey).

 

[crehld]

I think they don't however make it clear enough that the claim is for the whole ticketed/completed journey, though, so some will lose out (and similarly some will gain unfairly - it is quite possible that a train can be delayed 30 minutes or even more, but have no effect whatsoever on the end to end journey).

Indeed. I believe many people claim by putting in the details of the specific train they were delayed on and not the journey as a whole. And many TOC websites (e.g Virgin West Coast) reinforce this perception by simply not letting you submit a delay claim unless you define your journey as wholly within their network.

When I last sought delay compensation from Virgin I had to email (no bother really) explaining I was unable to use the website form because it would not let me select my origin. They added an extra £10 to the voucher as a "thank you for taking the time to feedback on the design and usability our website", but the website remains unchanged.

 

[Par]

For the avoidance of doubt, we did submit the end to end journey on the online claim form (ie York to Oxford) and the overall delay of approx 90 minutes, but seemingly this did not elicit the correct response from VTEC?

The odd thing is, their service was only about 11 down into Kings X, so how they came to the conclusion that a 30 minute Delay Repay compensation settlement was appropriate in this case is something of a mystery?

 

[Par]

OK, the saga continues...

A further letter was sent to VTEC (2nd December) to explain that their offer of £20.65 was incorrect, and that because the delay exceeded 60 minutes at the final destination, that in fact double this amount was due. we explained that their late arrival into Kings X meant that the 45 minute minimum transfer time to Paddington was not available and the connection was lost as a result.

On 20th December a reply came from VTEC which almost beggars belief in its failure to understand the problem and to address the points made in our letter. The thrust of the [VTEC] letter being that whilst they understand that we were unhappy with the journey experience, there would no compensation offered! This despite the fact that the first letter from VTEC offered £20.65! This letter spectacularly misses the points, and gives the impression that whoever compiled it, either did not read, or did not understand our letter dated 2nd December. Terrible customer service.

A phone call was made that day to VTEC, and after much explaining, it was finally possible to make the point that full (not 50%) compensation was due. This was then supposedly going to be looked at again, and the full compensation offered.

The next day a cheque for £20.65 arrived (presumably the settlement mentioned their first offer - so much for no compensation then :roll.

Since then however, nothing, no supplementary cheque. We are now two months on from the initial online Delay Repay claim and this is still not sorted.

If it is permitted (and possible) I can post the two VTEC (and our) letters to give additional context to the forum.

I really don't know where we should take it from here, are we being too impatient? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Is it too soon to take this further than just corresponding with VTEC, they are, after all it would seem, in breach of their Passenger Charter? :mad:

 

[ainsworth74]

You're welcome to post the letters to the forum but please do make sure you hide personally identifying information (like names and addresses) to help protect your identity.

 

[Par]

You're welcome to post the letters to the forum but please do make sure you hide personally identifying information (like names and addresses) to help protect your identity.

Thanks, I'll redact those bits and try and post up tomorrow.

Edit - following Moderator advice - I'm not going to post the letters just yet whilst this is investigated further - thanks to all those who have helped - much appreciated.