Is the use of cash dying out?

[Dai Corner]

Deliberately forcing application updates on iphones is a major tool in apple's 'forcing upgrades by obsolescence' strategy.

My First Direct banking app worked fine on my 7 year old iPad until I replaced it recently when the battery life slumped to about 10 minutes.

 

[Thirteen]

I don't think it's a bad thing for developers to stop updating older devices after a certain amount of time. Apple generally supports devices for 5-6 years and most people upgrade their phone every other year or so.

 

[duncanp]

Deliberately forcing application updates on iphones is a major tool in apple's 'forcing upgrades by obsolescence' strategy.

...as is Microsoft forcing people to upgrade to Windows 11 by "ending support" for Windows 10, and then making impossible for some people (ie. me ) to convert their existing laptop to Windows 11, due to it being "incompatible", meaning I will have to purchase a new laptop soon.

 

[johntea]

Funny thing is that "modern" technology isn't really modern at all. I'm 60 years old, so I'm an "oldie". I first started work in 1983 - using a computer on my first day, they've been pretty "mainstream" for a good few decades now. Even before then, I got a ZX80 for Christmas in 1980, and was using a Commodore PET in school around that time. Amstrad PCWs were widespread in the 80s. I got my first Access credit card in 1984! I got my first mobile phone mid 1990s, around the time I started using online banking. I've never, ever, been paid in cash, even as far back as 1983, it was paid by cheques at first, then BACS around late 80s. People have had decades to get accustomed to computers and mobile phones. If they couldn't be bothered, then they're entirely to blame for their own problems if they're struggling now. People act as if we've suddenly has massive change, but we havn't, it's taken two generations to get from where we used to be (i.e. cash in king) to where we are now (i.e. predominantly electronic banking).

Fine if people are too stubborn to change with the times, but they only have themselves to blame when they're disenfranchised. And yes, I know there are confused/disabled people etc - often doing things electronically by card is actually easier than messing about with cash - if set up properly and explained and practiced. We've done my dementia suffering mother in law - was a painful process, but it's done now and she uses her debit card for virtually everything - far better than her constantly losing her cash!

You're right to an extent but hardly anyone (apart from business people with deep pockets!) were essentially carrying around a powerful mobile computer in their pocket until the iPhone and later Android phones suddenly made it a much more mainstream market back in 2007 so the last 15 years or so have been the real turning point

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Carrying cash around encourages criminal activity. Not many drug dealers take chip and pin !

It is more likely that "chip" and "pin" are drug dealer slang names for small packages of classes of illegal drugs that are their stock of trade.

 

[johncrossley]

The ending of the analogue phone service like the ending of 405-line TV is a big change which leaves people with no choice but to change.

In reality, almost nobody was using the 405-line TV service when it closed. Almost everybody had switched to 625-line or 405/625 dual standard sets. The ending of analogue phones is probably even less of a big deal as those who choose to keep a fixed handset will still be able to do so and the end user will not even notice the difference. It will just be connected to the internet.

You're right to an extent but hardly anyone (apart from business people with deep pockets!) were essentially carrying around a powerful mobile computer in their pocket until the iPhone and later Android phones suddenly made it a much more mainstream market back in 2007 so the last 15 years or so have been the real turning point

Nobody thinks the conversion from 405 to 625 line TV was controversial, but that transition didn't actually take very long. BBC2 625 lines started in 1964 but BBC1 and ITV only started to broadcast in 625 lines in 1969. So it was only 16 years after that before 405 lines closed in 1985, not much longer than the time that smartphones have been a thing.

 

[Dai Corner]

Nobody thinks the conversion from 405 to 625 line TV was controversial, but that transition didn't actually take very long. BBC2 625 lines started in 1964 but BBC1 and ITV only started to broadcast in 625 lines in 1969. So it was only 16 years after that before 405 lines closed in 1985, not much longer than the time that smartphones have been a thing.

That's a positively glacial pace compared with that at which streaming apps and protocols come and go! Ask anybody who bought a smart TV or internet radio.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Presumably your account doesn't come with a chequebook then? Because cheques can be altered and counterfeited too.

Some years ago, I received notification from Aviva that my former Norwich Union large private pension had like others of that ilk, been subjected to overcharged administration costs on one previous year and the refund would be made to me, like all others, in the form of a cheque. Which indeed it was.

I still have both cheque and paying-in books, specially printed.

 

[johncrossley]

Some years ago, I received notification from Aviva that my former Norwich Union large private pension had like others of that ilk, been subjected to overcharged administration costs on one previous year and the refund would be made to me, like all others, in the form of a cheque. Which indeed it was.

Lucky the cheque wasn't intercepted in the post. I still remember this scam from nearly 20 years ago. Since then, I always demand to be paid electronically.

Sorry, your cheque is lost in the post

Millions of cheques are sent through the post every day without a hitch. But if one did get stolen you wouldn't expect to be out of pocket, right? Wrong. Take the case of Gareth Brahams, writes Sandra Haurant.

www.theguardian.com

Gareth Brahams invested £9,000 in a personal equity plan and was lucky enough to beat the worst of the stock market falls. But when he cashed it in, he didn't count on the cheque being stolen in the post, leaving him with little hope of ever seeing the money again.

Millions of pounds are sent by cheque through the post every day, but the Brahams' story reveals how consumers have almost zero protection if that vital piece of paper goes missing.


Mr Brahams, from north London, put £9,000 into a Legal & General Pep in 1997. When it matured in 2002 his decision to go for a capital protected fund had paid off, and he was looking at a gain of about £900.

Mr Brahams wrote to L&G asking for the account to be closed and a cheque to be issued. But he never received the cheque. It had been issued by L&G and sent out by normal Royal Mail delivery. But it was stolen and deposited in an account opened in Mr Brahams' name at Cheltenham & Gloucester in Ipswich. In only a matter of days the account was cleared out and all the money stolen.

Two years later, the Brahams are still out of pocket. The thief has taken the money, and neither L&G nor C&G nor the Royal Mail say they bear any responsibility.

 

[Dai Corner]

Fortunately, in the unlikely event of being sent a cheque nowadays, you can pay it in from the comfort of your armchair using your bank's app.

 

[jfollows]

If I'm paying someone new online these days I always send something like £5 and wait for confirmation from the recipient of its receipt before sending the balance. There's plenty of advice around to this effect, I'm not being especially clever, just appropriately cautious, and I've never had a problem as a result.
A few years ago I had reason to pay >£40,000 into my pension and I wrote a cheque and posted it. I'd probably do the same today. I trusted the people to whom I was sending it and the Post Office to deliver it.
But, with this exception, I've no qualms about online banking and related issues. It's safer and more reliable than more "traditional" methods which don't justify their suitability just because they've been around for a long time. People have to move with the times, like it or not.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Fortunately, in the unlikely event of being sent a cheque nowadays, you can pay it in from the comfort of your armchair using your bank's app.

"What is an app"....said the man with neither a mobile phone or a smart phone. "Is it the snake that bit Cleopatra?"

 

[Dai Corner]

"What is an app"....said the man with neither a mobile phone or a smart phone. "Is it the snake that bit Cleopatra?"

Short for 'application' and originally 'application software' . Another example is what you're using now to read this.

 

[DannyMich2018]

When we went to Blackpool in October there's at least 2 places I seen which were cash only. Back in Hinckley my Barbers I go to (Turkish Barbers) is cash only, also Cross Keys pub in Barwell also cash only.

 

[JamesT]

...as is Microsoft forcing people to upgrade to Windows 11 by "ending support" for Windows 10, and then making impossible for some people (ie. me ) to convert their existing laptop to Windows 11, due to it being "incompatible", meaning I will have to purchase a new laptop soon.

Windows 10 continues to receive security support until October 2025. So you don’t need to be in a particular hurry to replace your laptop. Windows 11 needs at least an 8th gen Intel CPU, which were released in 2017, so it’s not like they’re making brand new kit obsolete.

 

[duncanp]

Windows 10 continues to receive security support until October 2025. So you don’t need to be in a particular hurry to replace your laptop. Windows 11 needs at least an 8th gen Intel CPU, which were released in 2017, so it’s not like they’re making brand new kit obsolete.

My laptop dates from 2014.

Nevertheless, it is still £400 that I am going to have to spend somewhat unnecessarily.

 

[Phil56]

You're right to an extent but hardly anyone (apart from business people with deep pockets!) were essentially carrying around a powerful mobile computer in their pocket until the iPhone and later Android phones suddenly made it a much more mainstream market back in 2007 so the last 15 years or so have been the real turning point

I wasn't particularly referring to smart phones in isolation. I was meaning "tech" generally. Smart phones are just the latest generation, but most people today could have been using "tech" for decades, and getting accustomed to aspects such as menu systems, option selection, touch screens, keyboards, etc in all manner of pretty basic daily activities. Those who "opted out" are getting further and further behind.

I remember probably 30 years ago when Argos had a stock checking/ordering phone system when you could check/order by phone by using the phone keypad and of course their stock check keyboards have been in their stores for at least that long - I suspect the people who refused to use that kind of tech 30 years are the same ones who now really struggle. If they'd been more open minded back then (when they were a lot younger), they'd be more experienced/aware of how tech works. Likewise phone banking was with us for a decade or two before it moved online - those who embraced the phone banking would be better placed to use computers/apps today.

I despair at people my age (and younger) who've spent their lives actively avoiding any kind of "tech" and now really struggle - it's their own fault - they could have embraced tech years/decades ago in simpler/smaller scale ways which would have given them valuable experience/knowledge in the fundamentals of how it all works - I've a brother who still hasn't twigged that you need to click on "next" or "submit" or "enter" after you've entered a piece of information or answered a question on an app or touchscreen or PC - that's because he's a luddite/dinosaur and simply refused to embrace any kind of tech over the past 40-50 years, and seems to love virtue signalling because of it. It's him who's on the losing end though, time and time again. He's not got any learning disabilities or other genuine reason not to use tech - he's just an awkward sod.

 

[Bikeman78]

It is almost as if the authority in that car park are making it difficult to pay on purpose, so that they can rake in £££££ from fines due to people "..not paying..."

Kerching!!!!

That happened to me years ago at the Snowdon Mountain Railway. However, the ANPR cameras weren't synced up with the ticket machine so I politely told them to shove it. They had a few goes at extracting ever greater amounts of money out of me but they've given up now. I won't be parking there again.

If I recall, when the old-style circular £1 coin was in circulation, tokens of the same shape were readily available to shoppers.

I still have a round token and it works fine at Tesco and Pets at Home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You should, therefore, understand the mathematics which underpins the security of online banking and related things such as chip-and-pin & contactless payment, and that you're pretty much completely secure in using both of them.

And unlike if someone nicks your wallet with cash in, in the event that you're not and the issue is reported promptly*, you'll get the money back.

* One reason I love having a banking app. My phone vibrates when a card transaction is made. If I'm not there making said transaction, I can in a couple of taps block my card. Then message them to have the "test" transaction refunded, and my card blocked permanently and a new one sent. Years ago you didn't know until you got your monthly statement if your bank's software didn't pick it up and get the fraud team to phone, now you know straight away.

I still have a round token and it works fine at Tesco and Pets at Home.

There's a lot of leeway in the coin size, because they're generally set up to take £1 or EUR1, which are a similar size but not quite the same. With some stacking two 1p coins vertically works too.

I too have a token on my keyring. Even when I did use cash often, I was never quite disciplined enough to be sure of having a £1 coin.

When we went to Blackpool in October there's at least 2 places I seen which were cash only. Back in Hinckley my Barbers I go to (Turkish Barbers) is cash only, also Cross Keys pub in Barwell also cash only.

I think it was mentioned above, but a good many of those Turkish barber shops are (a) not Turkish, but in fact Albanian, and (b) are used for money laundering, hence the cash acceptance. I can't comment on that specific one though.

Very rare to see a cash only pub these days unless it's a proper olde worlde drinker's pub that doesn't do food, and those are (sadly) closing with some frequency as people drink at home more. The card machine is usually brought by default and waving cash often gets a funny look!

My laptop dates from 2014.

Nevertheless, it is still £400 that I am going to have to spend somewhat unnecessarily.

Or perhaps learn how to use, and install, Linux? There are plenty of options that aren't M$.

And you could of course stick with Windows 10 as long as you like if you cease to connect that device to the Internet. Depends what you do with it.

In reality, almost nobody was using the 405-line TV service when it closed. Almost everybody had switched to 625-line or 405/625 dual standard sets. The ending of analogue phones is probably even less of a big deal as those who choose to keep a fixed handset will still be able to do so and the end user will not even notice the difference. It will just be connected to the internet.

One thing to watch out for is what may happen in a power cut if you have them often. Not a major concern in an urban area, but potentially one in a rural area. Such people really need to ensure they have a router with a battery backup of some kind (or a mobile phone!). From hearing some calls on LBC on this earlier, I don't think this is being made entirely clear.

But that aside, yes, you can easily "fake" a landline phone via broadband, and the money saved on not needing the traditional circuit switched infrastructure is massive.

I cannot imagine the usual harsh voiced American woman of scam infamy or Jim from "your Microsoft company" taking the trouble to knock on my front door to obtain any financial recompense from my bank account or my wallet.

There absolutely are in-person scams from people knocking on your front door and have been for years. It's a classic way to carry out a distraction burglary involving the theft of your cash, unless you walk round your house with your wallet in your pocket the whole time.

If they encouraged customers to pay electronically they wouldn't have to waste time doing that.

Well, quite. Time IS money. The time spent processing and banking cash isn't, to a business, free, nor is it zero risk, and they should stop thinking about it as if it was.

I've got a Maths degree as well. Mental arithmetic is not required.

Much as I hate tipping with an absolute passion (it's a means of underpaying wages and indeed tax avoidance/evasion*) it's not exactly difficult to work out 10%, you just move the decimal point one number to the left. There's no actual maths involved. If you're really generous and want to do 20% (unusual in the UK) then just double the number.

* Cash tips that actually go in pockets aren't in practice subject to income tax even if they should be - I forget if they should. But either way charging extra for non-optional service is nonsensical. Charge what it costs to pay people a proper wage, with tipping only for exceptional service.

I actually used cash 3 times yesterday. Leaving a tip, using a public loo and parking at a location with no signal. This worked our at about 25% by number of transactions and 2.5% by value.

I am more likely to use cash in the summer when being in shirtsleeves leaves me without a secure pocket for a wallet.

I might be strange but I've never done pocket change, ever. Cash has always lived in a wallet, which NEVER goes in a back pocket (that's asking for it to be stolen).

The "less stuff" option is phone payment, and a card in a small card wallet (like a Railcard wallet) takes up almost no space in a shirt top pocket but is substantial enough not to lose.

It is not at all difficult for me at the age of 77 who still uses cash and refuses to indulge in online banking until the banks are 100% secure against the global criminal fraternity.

There is no such thing as 100% secure. However, online banking etc is generally more secure than cash.

Security of all kinds is a game of one-upmanship. The objective is to get the criminal to choose a different victim. Thus if your neighbour gets a fancy alarm you might well want to consider one too, as otherwise your home is a more favoured target than theirs now.

Too many people don't understand that, though. Such as TOCs who insist on the useless m-ticket format remaining in use.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There absolutely are in-person scams from people knocking on your front door and have been for years. It's a classic way to carry out a distraction burglary involving the theft of your cash, unless you walk round your house with your wallet in your pocket the whole time.

I have a device which I am not going to reveal on this website that gives me both clear vision and sound on all external door systems as do the other five houses on this development where I now reside and I can carry out conversations from the inside area of the house. No-one without a timed appointment and a specific password gains entry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a device which I am not going to reveal on this website that gives me both clear vision and sound on all external door systems as do the other five houses on this development where I now reside and I can carry out conversations from the inside area of the house. No-one without a timed appointment and a specific password gains entry.

That's a lot more secure than most homes. An example of such a device is a Ring doorbell, by the way. I guess it's some sort of retirement housing development? They do tend to be more secure than a normal house.

 

[Mag_seven]

I think after 28 pages the question under discussion i.e. "is the use of cash dying out", has probably been answered now and everybody has had a chance to contribute.

As ever if anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread.

thanks everybody.