Is there enough capacity for another stopping service between Leeds & Halifax ?

[Halifaxlad]

I was on a service yesterday during the even peak and the service was rammed leaving Leeds. As Ive noticed previously once past Halifax loadings seem reasonable but between Halifax and Leeds via Bradford are bloody terrible.

Is there enough capacity to create another service turning back at Halifax ? I know it will likely depend on the leeds end a lot more than the Bradford end. Even if another platform was needed at Bradford I can't see it being too hard to create another platform adjacent to the disused run round loop through what are little used car parking spaces.

 

[Grumpy]

I was on a service yesterday during the even peak and the service was rammed leaving Leeds

What time train yesterday?

 

[yoyothehobo]

I was on a service yesterday during the even peak and the service was rammed leaving Leeds. As Ive noticed previously once past Halifax loadings seem reasonable but between Halifax and Leeds via Bradford are bloody terrible.

Is there enough capacity to create another service turning back at Halifax ? I know it will likely depend on the leeds end a lot more than the Bradford end. Even if another platform was needed at Bradford I can't see it being too hard to create another platform adjacent to the disused run round loop through what are little used car parking spaces.

The service is very much at the whim of the relability of the 16.23 York to Blackpool North train. This isnt the most reliable of services and when it doesnt run you end up with a whole load of Leeds-Bradford passengers on the stopping train.

The 16.23 was indeed cancelled yesterday.

The normal loadings of the 17.12 service from Leeds to Braford onto Manchester Victoria are standing, but not crush loaded most days. I would prefer if the Hull to Halifax and vice versa ran 30 minutes earlier/later than it currently does (ie the 16.27 becomes an xx.57

 

[Andyh82]

There currently is an additional train on this line as the Leeds to Wigan service is running via Bradford instead of via Dewsbury due to the Transpennine Route Upgrade works.

Assuming it is running without causing delays then there must be this capacity at places like Bradford Interchange available. There is no change to the number of trains at Leeds though

 

[Manutd1999]

Turning back at Halifax is do-able but not ideal. I think the headways through the tunnels at Shibden are also quite long, which may limit capacity?

Personally I think the whole Calder Valley timetable needs a re-think, but in the short-term there are a few possibilities:

- Making sure all existing services are 6-car would be a good start, at least in the peaks.
- Running extra Leeds-Bradford shuttles, with the aim of freeing up space on the other services for Halifax (& beyond) passengers.
- Extending the Huddersfield-Bradford stopper to Leeds.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Turning back at Halifax is do-able but not ideal. I think the headways through the tunnels at Shibden are also quite long, which may limit capacity?

Personally I think the whole Calder Valley timetable needs a re-think, but in the short-term there are a few possibilities:

- Making sure all existing services are 6-car would be a good start, at least in the peaks.
- Running extra Leeds-Bradford shuttles, with the aim of freeing up space on the other services for Halifax (& beyond) passengers.
- Extending the Huddersfield-Bradford stopper to Leeds.

What stations on the line can take 6 cars though? Bramley, New Pudsey and Low Moor cannot and i am not sure the platforms used at Leeds currently could do 6 cars without blocking cross overs. SDO at peak times would be a nightmare.

It would be interesting to know what the traffic flows are on the line. Maybe the introduction of a semi fast Leeds-Man Vic via Bradford 30 minutes different to the Blackpool North train.

My experience is though that the chaos occurs when you either have a cancelled Blackpool North train or a short form. When things are normal, ie the Blackpool train is running and the stopping trains are 4 car, its normally bearable and not too many standees.

 

[Halifaxlad]

- Running extra Leeds-Bradford shuttles, with the aim of freeing up space on the other services for Halifax (& beyond) passengers.

I do quite like this idea although it did get me thinking about the opposite i.e an additional service but between Bradford and Manchester, thinking about it a little more possibly starting from Rochdale in the Bradford facing bay that way at least it wouldn't have to be factored into going into and out of Manchester.

- Extending the Huddersfield-Bradford stopper to Leeds.

That did used to run from Leeds but was cut back to Bradford!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've often wondered whether, if paths existed for it, "Halifax Loop" services would be worth experimenting with? I.e. 1tph Leeds-Leeds via Halifax operating outbound via Bradford and back via Dewsbury; and 1tph vice-versa.

I suspect paths don't exist unfortunately, though perhaps capacity could be released after the TP route upgrade, if operated with modern bi-mode units rather than ancient 150s.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I've often wondered whether, if paths existed for it, "Halifax Loop" services would be worth experimenting with? I.e. 1tph Leeds-Leeds via Halifax operating outbound via Bradford and back via Dewsbury; and 1tph vice-versa.

I suspect paths don't exist unfortunately, though perhaps capacity could be released after the TP route upgrade, if operated with modern bi-mode units rather than ancient 150s.

I have pondered this but going via Wakefield.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I have pondered this but going via Wakefield.

That's not a bad idea, even with the time penalty of going via Holbeck and Healey Mills. The downside would be yet another service either using P17 at Leeds, or crossing over the lines serving P15 & P16. Also less opportunity for a bi-mode unit to get on the juice via that route though. It could work if the Nottingham service were to make the previously planned switch to operating via Wakefield Westgate.

 

[Andyh82]

I've often wondered whether, if paths existed for it, "Halifax Loop" services would be worth experimenting with? I.e. 1tph Leeds-Leeds via Halifax operating outbound via Bradford and back via Dewsbury; and 1tph vice-versa.

I suspect paths don't exist unfortunately, though perhaps capacity could be released after the TP route upgrade, if operated with modern bi-mode units rather than ancient 150s.

I’d be in favour of that. Presumably after the TRU, there should be more capacity for stoppers via Dewsbury

I’d mean Brighouse could have two trains to Leeds and also introduce new links like Bradford/Halifax to Dewsbury, which even the long way round would still be quicker than the 268 bus

 

[Manutd1999]

61653 HTAFC said:
I've often wondered whether, if paths existed for it, "Halifax Loop" services would be worth experimenting with? I.e. 1tph Leeds-Leeds via Halifax operating outbound via Bradford and back via Dewsbury; and 1tph vice-versa.

I suspect paths don't exist unfortunately, though perhaps capacity could be released after the TP route upgrade, if operated with modern bi-mode units rather than ancient 150s.

Depending what happens with devolution, arranging the local services to stay within the West Yorkshire region could be beneficial. It would also help the business case for further electrification (Leeds-Bradford-Brighouse)....

 

[yoyothehobo]

That's not a bad idea, even with the time penalty of going via Holbeck and Healey Mills. The downside would be yet another service either using P17 at Leeds, or crossing over the lines serving P15 & P16. Also less opportunity for a bi-mode unit to get on the juice via that route though. It could work if the Nottingham service were to make the previously planned switch to operating via Wakefield Westgate.

Yes, unfortunately thats the big down side is the conflicts on 15, 16 and 17 which would mean you would struggle to put this service in. Thats why i agree that via Dewsbury/Morley would be preferable, though how well it would fit with TP services.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Depending what happens with devolution, arranging the local services to stay within the West Yorkshire region could be beneficial. It would also help the business case for further electrification (Leeds-Bradford-Brighouse)....

I wouldn't support this, and if it emerges as an official government policy I'd be out on the streets objecting to it. The boundaries between regions are largely arbitrary, and creating yet more artificial barriers between them would be insane.
We don't want to go back to the days of services arbitrarily turning back at Marsden like they did in the 1980s.

 

[nr758123]

I wouldn't support this, and if it emerges as an official government policy I'd be out on the streets objecting to it. The boundaries between regions are largely arbitrary, and creating yet more artificial barriers between them would be insane.
We don't want to go back to the days of services arbitrarily turning back at Marsden like they did in the 1980s.

+1.
More passengers commute from Marsden to Manchester than Marsden to Leeds.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I've often wondered whether, if paths existed for it, "Halifax Loop" services would be worth experimenting with? I.e. 1tph Leeds-Leeds via Halifax operating outbound via Bradford and back via Dewsbury; and 1tph vice-versa.

I wonder what the timings would be for such a service from Bradford to Leeds via Halifax also what the timings would be if more Calder Valley services were sent via Dewsbury.

 

[Manutd1999]

Halifax to Leeds via Dewsbury would be ~45 mins, vs ~35mins via Bradford. So not a huge difference....

Longer term, I would like to see 6ph between Bradford and Halifax:
2x Manchester-Bradford-Leeds,
2x Preston/Blackpool-Bradford-Leeds-York/Hull
1x Huddersfield - Bradford
1x Leeds-Dewsbury-Bradford

 

[Halifaxlad]

Halifax to Leeds via Dewsbury would be ~45 mins, vs ~35mins via Bradford. So not a huge difference....

Would it be the same post TRU with 2 stops ?

 

[Manutd1999]

45 mins is assuming calls at Brighouse, Mirfield, Dewsbury, Batley, Morley - same as the current Calder Valley stopper. Maybe you could save 5 mins by skipping Batley and Morley if those stations are served 2ph to Huddersfield post TRU.

 

[bluenoxid]

New Pudsey is 122 metres so six carriages at 20m each could be achieved with a squeeze

If the issue is where to put the train after Halifax, one of the options under consideration is a new service through Burnley Manchester Road from Leeds or Manchester. I understand the Hull terminator was on the agenda as a potential option.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I wonder what the timings would be for such a service from Bradford to Leeds via Halifax also what the timings would be if more Calder Valley services were sent via Dewsbury.

Only an enthusiast would choose to go that way from Bradford to Leeds. I'd expect such a service would use false destinations at several places, notably at Leeds and Bradford Interchange when running 'anti-clockwise', and at all stations to Mirfield when running 'clockwise'. I'd personally suggest using Halifax via Dewsbury or via Bradford from Leeds, at least as far as Mirfield and Halifax itself, before switching to Leeds (via the aforementioned stations).

 

[Manutd1999]

Only an enthusiast would choose to go that way from Bradford to Leeds.

It wouldn't be intended for Bradford-Leeds journeys. It would however provide a useful service from Bradford/Halifax to Mirfield/Dewsbury and extra capacity from Halifax/Brighouse to Leeds

 

[Sapphire Blue]

To throw a bit of a curve ball here.
When the 4 tracking is complete, would a service from Huddersfield up the Calder Valley to Hebden and beyond, be feasible or desirable.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Only an enthusiast would choose to go that way from Bradford to Leeds.

Thats a typical baseless remark!

To throw a bit of a curve ball here.
When the 4 tracking is complete, would a service from Huddersfield up the Calder Valley to Hebden and beyond, be feasible or desirable.

Mmm perhaps such a service could start from Rochdale ?

 

[D6130]

To throw a bit of a curve ball here.
When the 4 tracking is complete, would a service from Huddersfield up the Calder Valley to Hebden and beyond, be feasible or desirable.

It is an aspiration for both the Halifax & District Rail Users' Group (HADRAG) and the Upper Calder Valley Sustainable Transport Group (UCVSTG).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It wouldn't be intended for Bradford-Leeds journeys. It would however provide a useful service from Bradford/Halifax to Mirfield/Dewsbury and extra capacity from Halifax/Brighouse to Leeds

I know it wouldn't, but someone asked about the journey times going via that route. It was me that suggested the idea of a circular service, so I'm unlikely to try and undermine my own suggestion... But the journey times going the "wrong" way round are not really relevant, as those aren't the journeys the service is designed for. Similarly you could join a Kingston looper at Clapham Junction and ride to Earlsfield via Richmond and Kingston if you so desired, but the timetable should not be designed to prioritise such niche journeys.

Thats a typical baseless remark!



Mmm perhaps such a service could start from Rochdale ?

It isn't baseless though- if someone is at Bradford Interchange and wants to go to Leeds, why would they board the train that takes them the long way round? The only people that would do so are those that would enjoy that journey for its own sake. In other words, "enthusiasts"- which I wasn't using as a pejorative.

I quite like the idea of a Huddersfield to Calder Valley service, though a service from Rochdale to Huddersfield would struggle to wash its face financially. It wouldn't be used for Huddersfield to Manchester journeys due to the extended journey time and having to change at Rochdale for onward travel. Any service between Leeds and Manchester that doesn't serve at least one of those cities, will always be the "ginger stepchild" when it comes to funding priorities.

 

[Halifaxlad]

It is an aspiration for both the Halifax & District Rail Users' Group (HADRAG) and the Upper Calder Valley Sustainable Transport Group (UCVSTG).

Thats good to know!

It wouldn't be used for Huddersfield to Manchester journeys due to the extended journey time and having to change at Rochdale for onward travel. Any service between Leeds and Manchester that doesn't serve at least one of those cities, will always be the "ginger stepchild" when it comes to funding priorities.

Well it clearly wouldn't be for Huddersfield to Manchester journeys and neither would anybody want to be so I dont see the point in pointing this out.

So similar to the existing Bradford to Huddersfield service ? Which will become even less used from Bradford when any new line is constructed to Huddersfield which no-doubt will happen at some point.

My current developing thoughts is for a Bradford - Rochdale then Rochdale - Huddersfield service post TRU of course. For services between Halifax & Huddersfield they can change at Sowerby Bridge.

Part of me thinks it should turnback sooner although there lack of a turnback so it would make sense to carry on to Rochdale and turnback there. A bonus would be that Todmorden, Hebden Bridge & Mytholmroyd would have a direct service to Huddersfield rather than changing trains at Sowerby Bridge the first station where you install a turnback.

 

[Manutd1999]

My current developing thoughts is for a Bradford - Rochdale then Rochdale - Huddersfield service post TRU of course. For services between Halifax & Huddersfield they can change at Sowerby Bridge.

Part of me thinks it should turnback sooner although there lack of a turnback so it would make sense to carry on to Rochdale and turnback there. A bonus would be that Todmorden, Hebden Bridge & Mytholmroyd would have a direct service to Huddersfield rather than changing trains at Sowerby Bridge the first station where you install a turnback.

Is the demand really high enough though to warrant such services?

I tend to think a half-hourly Manchester-Leeds stopper, one via Bradford and one via Dewsbury, is more than sufficient for the smaller stations (Littleborough, Walsden, Mytholmroyd, Sowerby etc.). Hebden and Todmorden get extra anyway because of the faster services also call there.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I tend to think a half-hourly Manchester-Leeds stopper, one via Bradford and one via Dewsbury, is more than sufficient for the smaller stations (Littleborough, Walsden, Mytholmroyd, Sowerby etc.). Hebden and Todmorden get extra anyway because of the faster services also call there.

I may have missed the fact services to Leeds via the Calder Valley dont go via Huddersfield!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thats good to know!



Well it clearly wouldn't be for Huddersfield to Manchester journeys and neither would anybody want to be so I dont see the point in pointing this out.

So similar to the existing Bradford to Huddersfield service ? Which will become even less used from Bradford when any new line is constructed to Huddersfield which no-doubt will happen at some point.

My current developing thoughts is for a Bradford - Rochdale then Rochdale - Huddersfield service post TRU of course. For services between Halifax & Huddersfield they can change at Sowerby Bridge.

Part of me thinks it should turnback sooner although there lack of a turnback so it would make sense to carry on to Rochdale and turnback there. A bonus would be that Todmorden, Hebden Bridge & Mytholmroyd would have a direct service to Huddersfield rather than changing trains at Sowerby Bridge the first station where you install a turnback.

Sorry, I was a little firm in my objections previously. I personally would welcome such a service and would use it, particularly if it ran to Blackburn or Preston after Hebden Bridge. I just think it's a tough sell to those in charge of allocating limited capacity to the various different service options. You only have to look at the Huddersfield to Bradford service, the Huddersfield to Sheffield service, and especially the old Huddersfield to Castleford service that was lost for years before getting a partial replacement with the extended TPE Manchester stoppers. Services which don't serve Leeds or Manchester (or both) get neglected and are the first for the chopping block when things go belly-up.

One indication of the likelihood of success for a new service is whether a bus service exists for those journeys. Huddersfield to Halifax has multiple double-deck buses per hour on the most direct route, plus a mixture of full-size singles and minibuses on a few other hourly routes. Huddersfield to Hebden Bridge has a few minibus trips per day, and Huddersfield to Rochdale has nothing at all (and hasn't had for decades).