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Is this a record Liverpool to Euston time?

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peter166

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On Thursday 30th December 2021 1R19 0700 Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston did the journey in 1hr 55mins. Is this a record?
That was despite a 4min late departure from Lime Street.

 
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The Planner

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Arguably no. It started 4 down and finished 3 early. Its got 6 minutes engineering allowance in it, and a bit of pathing time. If there are no TSRs on then you would expect it to start running early unless there is a station stop to eat it back up again. Note the time it clawed back at Winsford, the pathing time is there to keep it apart from something in front, it was late so it didn't need it.
 

cambsy

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It was a good run, with probably, quite hard nosed driving, but a record, is hard to say, as RTT timings, are not accurate enough, and there might be literally seconds between a fast run and a record run, and with slightly late running, and clear run, would be perfectly repeatable again, these sort of runs, show what can be achieved on the WCM, with clear run and right circumstances.
 

irish_rail

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And what is a "record" anyway? What does it really mean. I have beaten the so called record for Reading to Paddington, but with no one there to record the fact, it is lost forever. Just need someone to be pouring over realtime trains to actually notice it! The driver on that Liverpool to London train was clearly lucky someone happened to notice, but I imagine there would have been countless marginally quicker runs by better / luckier drivers which have never even been noticed.
 

cambsy

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Irish rail, these days, record runs are generally, not given any special dispensations, to speed etc, so the only way they can achieve the record, are clearer run, and slightly harder running, so in practice, a normal passenger run, if given a clear run and driven a bit harder, can achieve same record time or get very close to it, take the Avanti record attempt, the London-Crewe section has probably been pretty much equalled or even bettered by normal services, and some of these runs would have been logged by RPS, and others, like your runs, not recorded, so never know if the Avanti record, was ever bettered by normal service train.

I think the last time, i can remember a record attempt being given any special dispensation, was the Brighton speed run, in 2005, and then the record breaking runs of the HST Tyne Tees Pullman, from Newcastle to Kings Cross, and the 225 set, which did, Kings Cross-Edinburgh, in 3 hrs and 29 mins, which had special dispensation, to run at 140mph where possible, where as now days, record attempts, arent given dispensation’s, so we cant see, what could be really achieved with modern trains, so records, these days, as u said, dont mean nearly so much, as they can be equalled or bettered by normal service trains.

As an aside, back in BR days, there was keen competition, between the Western and Eastern regions, and in the late 80’s, the Western region had just taken the record, for highest average speed between stops, of about 112mph,between Paddington and Bristol Parkway, if memory correct, and the Eastern Region, incensed by this, decided to see what could be done to beat this, so with the launch, of the new Tynee Tees Pullman service, they set out to see what could be achieved, between Newcastle and Kings Cross, and such was the determination to beat the Western Region record, that when the Drivers and Traction inspector, realised they were not going to achieve the record, they decided to run above authorised speeds.

They realised that if they ran legally after Huntingdon, they would not get the record, so the drivers and traction inspector agreed between them, to run above authorised speeds, with 140 mph being run to Stevenage area, then in the same vein, they ran above line speeds all the way into Kings Cross, with some hair raising speeds into Kings Cross, but they got the record, and arrived safely, it must have been an interesting last few miles into kings cross.
 
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hexagon789

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Irish rail, these days, record runs are generally, not given any special dispensations, to speed etc, so the only way they can achieve the record, are clearer run, and slightly harder running, so in practice, a normal passenger run, if given a clear run and driven a bit harder, can achieve same record time or get very close to it, take the Avanti record attempt, the London-Crewe section has probably been pretty much equalled or even bettered by normal services, and some of these runs would have been logged by RPS, and others, like your runs, not recorded, so never know if the Avanti record, was ever bettered by normal service train.

I think the last time, i can remember a record attempt being given any special dispensation, was the Brighton speed run, in 2005, and then the record breaking runs of the HST Tyne Tees Pullman, from Newcastle to Kings Cross, and the 225 set, which did, Kings Cross-Edinburgh, in 3 hrs and 29 mins, which had special dispensation, to run at 140mph where possible, and in the Tyne Tees Pullman case, it broke authorised speeds between Huntingdon and Kings Cross, with some hair raising speeds, into kings Cross, where as now days, record attempts, arent given dispensation’s, so we cant see, what could be really achieved with modern trains, so records, these days, as u said, dont mean nearly so much, as they can be equalled or bettered by normal service trains.
I read that the previous Pendolino record run was authorised to run at 128mph in certain places, the maximum possible without TASS intervention.
 

cambsy

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hexagon789, the previous record attempt to the Avanti one, was the Heavens Angels special, non stop Glasgow-Euston run, in sept 2006, which I was lucky enough to be on. I think we would have beat the APt record, back then, if we had the Trent Valley and Rugby upgrade, to use, as we wouldnt have lost time, slowing down slightly, through Lichfield,Tamworth and Nuneaton, and the 75mph through Rugby, also from what have read about the Avanti run, it was run at up to 125mph and no more, and it was driven more defensively, with no braking or accelerating dispensations, unlike the Heavens Angels run, where our driver was allowed to brake and accelerate harder, than normal, and as u said run up to 128mph, which was maximum speed, before TASS intervention.

I cant remember the exact time, the Avanti run did Carliisle-Glasgow Central in, but we did it in pretty much 62 mins, with fast start out of Glasgow central, due to optimum platform being used, which to me showed there was some effort being put into the run, where as the Avanti run, seemed to be, run up to normal running, but not an inch more, which born out by only being allowed to run up to 125mph, and not 1mph more. I think if harder running, and 128mph been allowed, then the Carstairs 50 mph TSR, wouldnt have cost it the record, as it was run too tightly, with no allowance for the time penalty of the carstairs TSR.
 

hexagon789

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I understand the previ
hexagon789, the previous record attempt to the Avanti one, was the Heavens Angels special, non stop Glasgow-Euston run, in sept 2006, which I was lucky enough to be on. I think we would have beat the APt record, back then, if we had the Trent Valley and Rugby upgrade, to use, as we wouldnt have lost time, slowing down slightly, through Lichfield,Tamworth and Nuneaton, and the 75mph through Rugby, also from what have read about the Avanti run, it was run at up to 125mph and no more, and it was driven more defensively, with no braking or accelerating dispensations, unlike the Heavens Angels run, where our driver was allowed to brake and accelerate harder, than normal, and as u said run up to 128mph, which was maximum speed, before TASS intervention.

I cant remember the exact time, the Avanti run did Carliisle-Glasgow Central in, but we did it in pretty much 62 mins, with fast start out of Glasgow central, due to optimum platform being used, which to me showed there was some effort being put into the run, where as the Avanti run, seemed to be, run up to normal running, but not an inch more, which born out by only being allowed to run up to 125mph, and not 1mph more. I think if harder running, and 128mph been allowed, then the Carstairs 50 mph TSR, wouldnt have cost it the record, as it was run too tightly, with no allowance for the time penalty of the carstairs TSR.
The previous run was done manually as well I believe, minor control adjustments being used to hold speed - the Avanti run was done pretty much entirely on the speedset. Carlisle-Glasgow was covered in 65m18s by the Avanti record run against the 66m booked.
 

cambsy

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I think if Avanti had another attempt, with manual driving, harder braking and accelerating, and running up to 128mph, they would beat the APT record, by possibly 4-5 mins, as by Crewe, it was good few mins faster than the APT, record run, but then the APT clawed back the deficit, by running over the Northern fells, at speeds which just couldn’t be, achieved by the Avanti run. I have heard, that once the Carstairs TSR, is over, Avanti might have another attempt at the record, and if they are serious about breaking it, they need to have more guts about doing it, and let the train, run hard as legally possible.
 

hexagon789

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I think if Avanti had another attempt, with manual driving, harder braking and accelerating, and running up to 128mph, they would beat the APT record, by possibly 4-5 mins, as by Crewe, it was good few mins faster than the APT, record run, but then the APT clawed back the deficit, by running over the Northern fells, at speeds which just couldn’t be, achieved by the Avanti run. I have heard, that once the Carstairs TSR, is over, Avanti might have another attempt at the record, and if they are serious about breaking it, they need to have more guts about doing it, and let the train, run hard as legally possible.
Worth pointing out that the Pendolinos have more limited EPS speeds to use north of the border, particularly after Carstairs where there are none. The APT differentials however continued further, indeed Carstairs itself had an APT 115 limit through the station, something the 390 doesn't possess the luxury of.

The APT-P's also had the benefit of a manually selectable boost mode, which gave the maximum traction motor output for a 20-second period. The Pendolino's "boost" mode is simply restoring full 140mph design traction power at over 45mph.

There are many ways in which the 390 has a much harder time making up time north of Carlisle against the APT.
 

cambsy

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The Avanti run was indeed, given much harder time, trying make up time, north of Carlisle, by being driven conservatively, and only up to 125mph, and with a few sections, where tilt isn’t enabled, like Beattock bank, where the APT, could run pretty much un hindered, and of course the 115mph through Carstairs, which isn’t supportable nowadays, with 95 mph the permitted speed, I think with the speed increases in various areas, harder driving, and running up to 128mph, and no Carstairs TSR, then a time of 60 mins, Carlisle-Glasgow or vv, should be do able, then a time of 54 mins, Carlisle-Preston or vv, then 110-115 mins Preston-Euston or vv, would give a time below the APT record.
 

Wychwood93

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And what is a "record" anyway? What does it really mean. I have beaten the so called record for Reading to Paddington, but with no one there to record the fact, it is lost forever. Just need someone to be pouring over realtime trains to actually notice it! The driver on that Liverpool to London train was clearly lucky someone happened to notice, but I imagine there would have been countless marginally quicker runs by better / luckier drivers which have never even been noticed.
The RPS (Railway Performance Society) current best time from Reading to Paddington is 21m 41s with an HST back in 1990, the best 8xx time to date is 21m 58s (March 2018). Albeit that I am an RPS Member, my fastest is a 21m 50s with a pair of 802s in March 2021 - a time lag between submitting, processing etc. As you rightly say "countless marginally quicker runs by better / luckier drivers which have never even been noticed". IIRC 'Mintona' mentioned a sub-22m Reading to Swindon - my own best is 22m 21s in July 2020 with 802104. I take it that you sign both B&H and via Bristol.
 

irish_rail

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The RPS (Railway Performance Society) current best time from Reading to Paddington is 21m 41s with an HST back in 1990, the best 8xx time to date is 21m 58s (March 2018). Albeit that I am an RPS Member, my fastest is a 21m 50s with a pair of 802s in March 2021 - a time lag between submitting, processing etc. As you rightly say "countless marginally quicker runs by better / luckier drivers which have never even been noticed". IIRC 'Mintona' mentioned a sub-22m Reading to Swindon - my own best is 22m 21s in July 2020 with 802104. I take it that you sign both B&H and via Bristol.
Yes I sign b and h and via Bristol. I won't be posting my reading to London time here , but it was quicker than the RPS best time by a little . Would have saved a couple more seconds too if I'd left off plat 10 and not 11 at Reading.
 

Bald Rick

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I think the last time, i can remember a record attempt being given any special dispensation, was the Brighton speed run, in 2005

Liverpool St - Cambridge had dispensation to go up to 10mph over linespeed on some sections. 2010 or 2011, can’t remember which. Broke the record, RPS confirmed.
 

cambsy

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irish_rail, How was your quicker, than RPS fastest time, achieved,if u can divulge a bit? Was it harder running and taking slight liberties, or just a clear run?im well aware, that driver managers etc, can take a dim view, to hard running and speeding, though i dont know the exact GWR policies, on drivers doing this, just interested thats all, and understand if you wont say any more.
 

irish_rail

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irish_rail, How was your quicker, than RPS fastest time, achieved,if u can divulge a bit? Was it harder running and taking slight liberties, or just a clear run?im well aware, that driver managers etc, can take a dim view, to hard running and speeding, though i dont know the exact GWR policies, on drivers doing this, just interested thats all, and understand if you wont say any more.
Cambsy it was a pair of 802s during lockdown when I knew in advance I had an excellent chance of a clear run (this was when the services where highly thinned out). I never did anything illegal (I wouldn't put my job at risk) I just drove it as hard as I physically could, with max acceleration and generally late braking (although ATP makes that slightly more diffcult). The biggest factor was having greens the entire way.
 

cambsy

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Irish_rail, I’m not surprised, you achieved this run, during lockdown, as a lot of services, were achieving, very fast times, due to clear runs. Was it nice for once, to have chance to see what can be achieved with the IET’s? and are the GWR management, ok with hard nosed driving, long as legal etc? I know in the past, that like other regions, management turned a bit of a blind eye, to speeding etc, as when their was bad delays around Dawlish, due to severe TSR etc, a couple of drivers, were timed doing, 115-120mph, between Taunton and Westbury, and one did 120mph through Westbury, which much have been rather lively, and very hard braking, soon after Newbury to get down to anything like the 100mph limit beyond.

They achieved Taunton to reading in just over 66 mins, which apart from the HST special, which had dispensations to exceed speed limits, still hold the fastest Taunton-Reading times, out of interest if you had been driving in that era, and u knew managers would turn bit of a blind eye, would u have been prepared to push the limits, like these drivers did? Using ones knowledge of route and driving skill, or would these speeds have been bit too much for you, just seems your not afraid to push on a bit, and use ur driving skills, as much as u legally can.
 

BluePenguin

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Yes I sign b and h and via Bristol. I won't be posting my reading to London time here , but it was quicker than the RPS best time by a little . Would have saved a couple more seconds too if I'd left off plat 10 and not 11 at Reading.
Why are you uncomfortable sharing your time when others have done? I don’t understand
 

Llama

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For a start it would be easier for TOC management to work out who somebody is on here if they post details of trains they have driven, even years ago.
 

Dren Ahmeti

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Why are you uncomfortable sharing your time when others have done? I don’t understand
Because, knowing @irish_rail, everything was done on the prim and proper, but someone might report them for it - and put them through a lot of unnecessary stress.

Without dropping anyone in it, I’m definitely aware of non-GPS speeds recorded in excess of 125mph on the GWML, and having just checked a specific run during lockdown, made up 3 minutes between Reading and Paddington with a clear run.

It’s definitely do-able in around 20-21 minutes if you have a clear run into and out of Reading, as well as a clear run through Airport Jct and the like. Lockdown certainly helped matters.
 

irish_rail

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Because, knowing @irish_rail, everything was done on the prim and proper, but someone might report them for it - and put them through a lot of unnecessary stress.

Without dropping anyone in it, I’m definitely aware of non-GPS speeds recorded in excess of 125mph on the GWML, and having just checked a specific run during lockdown, made up 3 minutes between Reading and Paddington with a clear run.

It’s definitely do-able in around 20-21 minutes if you have a clear run into and out of Reading, as well as a clear run through Airport Jct and the like. Lockdown certainly helped matters.
This. Everything completely legal. As you say 20 to 21 minutes is perfectly doable , its just so rare to get a clear run these days!

Why are you uncomfortable sharing your time when others have done? I don’t understand
Incase my speedo was out and I was unwittingly speeding. I'm pretty sure I wasn't, but not prepared to tempt fate. Or maybe I'm just making all this up and I'm just a fantasist on here who pretends to drive trains. I can neither confirm or deny.

Irish_rail, I’m not surprised, you achieved this run, during lockdown, as a lot of services, were achieving, very fast times, due to clear runs. Was it nice for once, to have chance to see what can be achieved with the IET’s? and are the GWR management, ok with hard nosed driving, long as legal etc? I know in the past, that like other regions, management turned a bit of a blind eye, to speeding etc, as when their was bad delays around Dawlish, due to severe TSR etc, a couple of drivers, were timed doing, 115-120mph, between Taunton and Westbury, and one did 120mph through Westbury, which much have been rather lively, and very hard braking, soon after Newbury to get down to anything like the 100mph limit beyond.

They achieved Taunton to reading in just over 66 mins, which apart from the HST special, which had dispensations to exceed speed limits, still hold the fastest Taunton-Reading times, out of interest if you had been driving in that era, and u knew managers would turn bit of a blind eye, would u have been prepared to push the limits, like these drivers did? Using ones knowledge of route and driving skill, or would these speeds have been bit too much for you, just seems your not afraid to push on a bit, and use ur driving skills, as much as u legally can.
66 minutes on the b and h would be a push nowadays due to the numerous temporary speed restrictions, plus 802s on diesel perform slightly worse than HSTs so unsure how easy it would be to beat that one now.
To be clear, I am a professional driver, I don't speed, never have and never would.
 

cambsy

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Irish_rail, I’m not saying you would speed, and in any way un professional, in ur driving, just that if you had been driving, when managers turned more of a blind eye, and there was more emphasis, on making up time etc, would you have done speeds, like 117mph, between Taunton and Westbury, or would you have kept to speed limits? I know full well that nowadays, its all about defensive driving etc, I’m just hypothesising about wether one would have speeded, in the culture which prevailed in the past, sorry if anything asking is offensive to you.
 

irish_rail

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Irish_rail, I’m not saying you would speed, and in any way un professional, in ur driving, just that if you had been driving, when managers turned more of a blind eye, and there was more emphasis, on making up time etc, would you have done speeds, like 117mph, between Taunton and Westbury, or would you have kept to speed limits? I know full well that nowadays, its all about defensive driving etc, I’m just hypothesising about wether one would have speeded, in the culture which prevailed in the past, sorry if anything asking is offensive to you.
There where in the past plenty of drivers who would speed , I think that's common knowledge and something that happened in BR times, most certainly not nowadays.
 

Wychwood93

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Why are you uncomfortable sharing your time when others have done? I don’t understand
I have no problem with sharing times - as retired staff and not a driver, I still prefer to keep certain exact details hidden on an open forum. In Milepost, the RPS quarterly magazine, there are times when logs omit certain details, for infractions which may have happened - a 'legal' log is fine. It is possible that irish_rail may have been the driver of my Reading/Paddington 21m 50s run, on the 1A73 sometime in March last year - if that happened to be the case, then I can confirm that speed never went above 125 and it was, being an up B&H service, from platform 11 in Reading. Good to hear that platform 10 is better! 'Interesting' overspeeds on the GW do not really exist - the GPS will show an odd 126 or 127 and, given the nature of GPS, something really weird which does not match the averages between timing points.
 

Dren Ahmeti

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I have no problem with sharing times - as retired staff and not a driver, I still prefer to keep certain exact details hidden on an open forum. In Milepost, the RPS quarterly magazine, there are times when logs omit certain details, for infractions which may have happened - a 'legal' log is fine. It is possible that irish_rail may have been the driver of my Reading/Paddington 21m 50s run, on the 1A73 sometime in March last year - if that happened to be the case, then I can confirm that speed never went above 125 and it was, being an up B&H service, from platform 11 in Reading. Good to hear that platform 10 is better! 'Interesting' overspeeds on the GW do not really exist - the GPS will show an odd 126 or 127 and, given the nature of GPS, something really weird which does not match the averages between timing points.
Overspeeds do theoretically exist, TPE proved that on the ECML at 147mph - but ATP will warble at around 127-128mph, and I think the intervention is around 129-130mph?

There where in the past plenty of drivers who would speed , I think that's common knowledge and something that happened in BR times, most certainly not nowadays.
Easier on the 387s, just flick the wifi switch off and it won’t send the OTMR overspeed report ;):lol:
 

irish_rail

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I have no problem with sharing times - as retired staff and not a driver, I still prefer to keep certain exact details hidden on an open forum. In Milepost, the RPS quarterly magazine, there are times when logs omit certain details, for infractions which may have happened - a 'legal' log is fine. It is possible that irish_rail may have been the driver of my Reading/Paddington 21m 50s run, on the 1A73 sometime in March last year - if that happened to be the case, then I can confirm that speed never went above 125 and it was, being an up B&H service, from platform 11 in Reading. Good to hear that platform 10 is better! 'Interesting' overspeeds on the GW do not really exist - the GPS will show an odd 126 or 127 and, given the nature of GPS, something really weird which does not match the averages between timing points.
With platform 10 at Reading the driver can whack the throttle wide open and let it go. On 11, if you did that you would be speeding before you reach the point where the 95 becomes 125mph and ATP will intervene or warble at very least, meaning driver has to shut off power until the whole train has cleared the 95mph section.
 

Dren Ahmeti

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Irish_rail, I’m not saying you would speed, and in any way un professional, in ur driving, just that if you had been driving, when managers turned more of a blind eye, and there was more emphasis, on making up time etc, would you have done speeds, like 117mph, between Taunton and Westbury, or would you have kept to speed limits? I know full well that nowadays, its all about defensive driving etc, I’m just hypothesising about wether one would have speeded, in the culture which prevailed in the past, sorry if anything asking is offensive to you.
A driver could feasibly speed on that section without ATP intervention, but automatic OTMR reports sent straight to control on new units + the possibility of a random download during your journey is not worth it.

Not to say it doesn’t happen, but these days, you’re more likely to see, say, a West Country driver (looking at you, Bristol) pushing the limits on acceleration and braking when late and under green aspects.
 

Wychwood93

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With platform 10 at Reading the driver can whack the throttle wide open and let it go. On 11, if you did that you would be speeding before you reach the point where the 95 becomes 125mph and ATP will intervene or warble at very least, meaning driver has to shut off power until the whole train has cleared the 95mph section.
Thank you for that. I assume platform 9 on the down the better vs. 8 for a better start?
 

Dren Ahmeti

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Thank you for that. I assume platform 9 on the down the better vs. 8 for a better start?
Yes, including coming into the station, as there are flashers for both 11 and 8.

9, you’re on the plain line over the flyover - really makes a difference I find.
 
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