Is this fare evasion or providing false information?

[Gareth Marston]

"Proving" that you were given permission to board by a man outside the station whom you believed to be a Northern employee seems to be a nigh impossible thing to do. You can either argue the toss about this or just apologies profusely promise not to do it and again and offer to pay the fare plus admin costs incurred.

The latter should hopefully see you just under a three figure sum lighter the former potentially a trip to court. I'm afraid the answer you want i.e No Further Consequences is very unlikely.

 

[cuccir]

ForTheLoveOf has more or less summarized what's needed I think.

I'd be tempted to include the incident with the member of staff advising you to board in your account of what happened - f nothing else, you presumably described this incident in your first discussion with the RPI and there's value in consistency. But also still apologise and offer to cover the fare paid and costs as I think on balance it would be too risky to put everything solidly behind this encounter.

 

[Adam_]

Thanks all

 

[Bletchleyite]

Separately from the case, you should also make a complaint to the Customer Services department about the conduct of the member of staff who indicated you could board without a ticket. As Northern's RPIs operate a much more absolute policy, this needs nipping in the bud.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Separately from the case, you should also make a complaint to the Customer Services department about the conduct of the member of staff who indicated you could board without a ticket. As Northern's RPIs operate a much more absolute policy, this needs nipping in the bud.

The culprit should be easily identifiable from the rosters of surplus staff they diagram to walk around outside of suburban stations in the Greater Manchester area when the Booking Office is already manned. Sorry cant see what that will achieve at all.

 

[Adam_]

Thanks everyone. I will be sending the letter tomorrow. I can't believe they expect people to handwrite on the reverse of the letter. What century do they think it is?! I have already typed a letter but may just transfer it to the back...

 

[najaB]

I can't believe they expect people to handwrite on the reverse of the letter. What century do they think it is?

You don't have to hand write. You can write 'See attached' or similar and attach your letter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The culprit should be easily identifiable from the rosters of surplus staff they diagram to walk around outside of suburban stations in the Greater Manchester area when the Booking Office is already manned. Sorry cant see what that will achieve at all.

The aim isn't to get one person into trouble, it's to convince Northern that they need to be more consistent about policy, i.e. that staff MUST NOT under any circumstances give authority to travel where a working ticket office or TVM is present, and that it will be considered serious misconduct if found to have done so. And that any authority to travel MUST be given in writing only (as I believe GWR do on a specific pad).

And where guards sell a ticket they MUST make it clear that it is a one off and next time they may find themselves with a criminal record.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The aim isn't to get one person into trouble, it's to convince Northern that they need to be more consistent about policy, i.e. that staff MUST NOT under any circumstances give authority to travel where a working ticket office or TVM is present, and that it will be considered serious misconduct if found to have done so. And that any authority to travel MUST be given in writing only (as I believe GWR do on a specific pad).

And where guards sell a ticket they MUST make it clear that it is a one off and next time they may find themselves with a criminal record.

How many rail staff do you know interact with the public away from the station premises excepting during disruption? Firstly if their on duty and there's no supervising of rail replacement coaches etc they shouldn't be there. As I said previously I'm not convinced that the OP did encounter a Northern staff member unless they can substantiate the claim.

 

[NC2193]

Thanks everyone. I will be sending the letter tomorrow. I can't believe they expect people to handwrite on the reverse of the letter. What century do they think it is?! I have already typed a letter but may just transfer it to the back...

Adam_ if you could keep us updated with how you get on that would be appreciated. I am anticipating a letter from Northern Rail very soon so it would be good to understand how co-operative they are at settling out of court.

 

[Silverdale]

As I said previously I'm not convinced that the OP did encounter a Northern staff member unless they can substantiate the claim.

I have no reason to think that the OP's account of events is untrue.

The day after the OP posted here, I was told by a member of Northern staff to board a train without a ticket. They were behind the counter, issuing tickets at a manned station operated by Northern. Would you say I could have been mistaken about whether that was actually a member of Northern staff?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I have no reason to think that the OP's account of events is untrue.

The day after the OP posted here, I was told by a member of Northern staff to board a train without a ticket. They were behind the counter, issuing tickets at a manned station operated by Northern. Would you say I could have been mistaken about whether that was actually a member of Northern staff?

I think you need to start a new thread entitled "I believe Northern staff are deliberately entrapping people to pay penalty fines"

 

[Silverdale]

Who said anything about deliberate entrapment?

One part of an organisation handing out instructions based on one reading of the rules, with another part denying the instructions were given, based on another, is a genuine Northern cock-up, rather than any kind of conspiracy.

And it has come to a pretty pass that the it is the customer who is required to be able to substantiate what they have been told and acted on in good faith or face a fine, rather than the company being required to the most cursory of checks as to what instructions its staff are actually giving out.

If a customer comes to you to buy a ticket, but your system is unable to issue it, what do you tell that customer to do?

 

[Stigy]

It’s a shame that more staff aren’t instructed to wear the small personal GoPro type cameras for these types of disputes. Oddly Cross Country (Arriva) train managers are now starting to appear with them, but revenue protection staff for Northern (same parent company) don’t yet need them.

I doubt very much whether they’d use the evidence obtained from Body Worn Video for this anyway. Companies have to jump through GDPR hoops to use the evidence these days and chances are these are only used where the police are involved (staff assaults etc.). They make for fantastic deterrent and in an ideal world they would be fine for TOCs to use themselves in court, but unfortunately there’s a lot of red tape and continuity issues.

 

[Adam_]

To update, I have received a £90 fixed penalty notice.

 

[davart]

That's good news.

I think the laws need simplifying. With the advent of mobile ticketing and contactless payment, having an actual ticket shouldn't be a consideration.

What must be done is the journey to be paid for by the time you exit your final station. Sometimes its entirely possible to decide to travel on the spur of the moment - for example, I may decide to travel to a city by bus but then a train pulls in going to the same destination. If you try to wait to buy a ticket you'd obviously miss it!

Tickets should be available for sale everywhere. On trains, in offices and also at exit gates. If someone offers to pay at the exit stage, what's the problem? They've paid.

Demonising people who actually do intend to pay is wrong. Of course, there are those that want a 'free ride' and always will be.

I envision in the future, you'll have seat back contactless terminals to tap to pay. Ticket offices and such will disappear completely. Exits will have gates where you tap your payment card to exit. Not unlike the underground in a fashion.

Won't happen overnight, but it will come.

 

[Hadders]

That's good news.

I think the laws need simplifying. With the advent of mobile ticketing and contactless payment, having an actual ticket shouldn't be a consideration.

What must be done is the journey to be paid for by the time you exit your final station. Sometimes its entirely possible to decide to travel on the spur of the moment - for example, I may decide to travel to a city by bus but then a train pulls in going to the same destination. If you try to wait to buy a ticket you'd obviously miss it!

Tickets should be available for sale everywhere. On trains, in offices and also at exit gates. If someone offers to pay at the exit stage, what's the problem? They've paid.

Demonising people who actually do intend to pay is wrong. Of course, there are those that want a 'free ride' and always will be.

I envision in the future, you'll have seat back contactless terminals to tap to pay. Ticket offices and such will disappear completely. Exits will have gates where you tap your payment card to exit. Not unlike the underground in a fashion.

Won't happen overnight, but it will come.

Not every station has exit gates. How are you going to deal with people just walking out and not paying. Putting in exit gates at every station is not feasible - think of remote stations with little usage.....

 

[najaB]

Tickets should be available for sale everywhere. On trains, in offices and also at exit gates. If someone offers to pay at the exit stage, what's the problem? They've paid.

There are more stations without ticket gates than with...

 

[Adam_]

This entire experience has left such a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm a confident person that is able to articulate myself and challenge correspondence etc. but just imagine how many vulnerable people are snared by flawed processes like this and end up with criminal records? It's sickening.

How can Northern provide the shoddy service that they do and then hold passengers to a higher accountability? It was THEIR app that did not work when I tried to buy a ticket. It was THEIR member of staff that absentmindedly told me to get on the train that day and it was THEIR member of staff that could not for the life of him get his head around me moving house.

Since this incident I have not once got the train to work, I have driven and I am going to continue to drive I think. I know my mini-protest/boycott is going to have zero effect on Northern but that's what I will do until this bitter taste dissipates.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's good news.

I think the laws need simplifying. With the advent of mobile ticketing and contactless payment, having an actual ticket shouldn't be a consideration.

What must be done is the journey to be paid for by the time you exit your final station. Sometimes its entirely possible to decide to travel on the spur of the moment - for example, I may decide to travel to a city by bus but then a train pulls in going to the same destination. If you try to wait to buy a ticket you'd obviously miss it!

Tickets should be available for sale everywhere. On trains, in offices and also at exit gates. If someone offers to pay at the exit stage, what's the problem? They've paid.

Demonising people who actually do intend to pay is wrong. Of course, there are those that want a 'free ride' and always will be.

I envision in the future, you'll have seat back contactless terminals to tap to pay. Ticket offices and such will disappear completely. Exits will have gates where you tap your payment card to exit. Not unlike the underground in a fashion.

Won't happen overnight, but it will come.

“Like the underground” will never work nationally until something approaching 100% of stations in busy areas are gated. You cannot just allow “offering to pay on exit” until everyone has also tapped in on entry. If not people will be “offering” to pay for B-C whenever they started at A.

 

[Silverdale]

This entire experience has left such a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm a confident person that is able to articulate myself and challenge correspondence etc. but just imagine how many vulnerable people are snared by flawed processes like this and end up with criminal records? It's sickening.

It does taste bitter if you behave honestly and your version of events is not immediately believed, but in the end Northern have listened and by issuing the penalty fare, rather than prosecuting, have accepted that you made an honest mistake in respect of boarding the train without a ticket and that you weren't trying to give false information concerning your address. Perhaps if they had articulated that, rather than very matter of factly issuing the PF, the taste might be somewhat less bitter, as you seem to have been dealt with fairly, considering the mistake (as you admit in the OP) was yours.

 

[cuccir]

He didn't make a mistake though. He asked a Northern member of staff if he could board without a ticket; that member of staff said yes.

 

[Gareth Marston]

He didn't make a mistake though. He asked a Northern member of staff if he could board without a ticket; that member of staff said yes.

He believes he was given permission by someone whom he believed to be a Northern a Rail employee outside of railway property. This cannot be proved either way.

 

[Silverdale]

He didn't make a mistake though. He asked a Northern member of staff if he could board without a ticket; that member of staff said yes.

Adam_ said in the OP that not buying a ticket from the machine and boarding the train was a mistake.

The mistake was expecting that his version of what he had been told would be believed without anything to corroborate it.

 

[Silverdale]

He believes he was given permission by someone whom he believed to be a Northern a Rail employee outside of railway property. This cannot be proved either way.

The penalty fares guidelines says; "In situations where a person appears to be acting for or on behalf of a train Operator, it is advisable for a customer to make a note of the person who has indicated travel is allowed; such as name (if a name badge is worn), physical description and where on the station they are located (outside ticket office, at the gates etc.). This can assist with later verification or appeal."

Even that advice only says that making such notes can assist with verification, rather than verify that authority to travel had been given. So what should the honest customer do, if they don't want to be treated as Adam_ was?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The penalty fares guidelines says; "In situations where a person appears to be acting for or on behalf of a train Operator, it is advisable for a customer to make a note of the person who has indicated travel is allowed; such as name (if a name badge is worn), physical description and where on the station they are located (outside ticket office, at the gates etc.). This can assist with later verification or appeal."

Even that advice only says that making such notes can assist with verification, rather than verify that authority to travel had been given. So what should the honest customer do, if they don't want to be treated as Adam_ was?

This is possibly a topic for a separate thread. As someone who works in a non penalty fare area I have experience of people coming in the booking office asking if they can buy on board.....why would you want to ascertain if you can on board when your at the front of queue in the booking office and can purchase your ticket there and then? These people (always under 30) are almost certainly weighing up whether they can get away with "buy when challenged" tactics as theirs no other rational explanation for it. Now if people are doing this is in a rural area then multiply it out in suburban/urban areas add in the fact (as i've posted earlier) that people mistake non railway staff for railway staff then you have a plausible explanation for the "man on the platform said" story's. People want to hear what they want to hear, a well meaning but incorrect "yes" from another passenger is not authority to travel but he ho...

One of my regular commuters is a security guard - he wears black cargo pants, a black jacket and top with black baseball cap, he doesn't put on his lanyard etc until he as at work. Because hes a regular who waits calmly and knows whats going on and looks like an "authority figure" he's been mistaken for rail staff many times including receiving abuse. We have a post box on the UP platform - those Postmen (&women) wear high viz........no prizes for guessing what sometimes happens when they collect....

 

[Silverdale]

It probably is a subject for a thread of its own, as the issue of verbal authority to travel reappears consistently in many of these threads about disputes.

Firstly, I am in no doubt that you are absolutely correct about those who are intending to dodge fares and also about people hearing want they want to, but that is part of the problem with verbal authority. When even the advice given in the penalty fare guidelines refers to "a person [who] appears to be acting for or on behalf of a train Operator ... has indicated travel is allowed", you can understand why (perhaps incorrect) advice is acted on by an honest customer who has no intention of fare dodging.

I know you doubt whether the person who spoke to Adam_ was a Northern staff member and you may be right. We can neither prove or disprove Adam_'s account. But I recently went to a Northern staffed station to buy a ticket from the ticket office and I was told they couldn't issue the ticket (Northern Explorer 55 day ticket) from their system. I was further told that as the on-train conductor's machine was a different system they may be able to issue the ticket, so I should board the train, failing that, try again at the station where I was due to change trains, where the booking office was operated by Virgin (different system again, apparently) Clearly this would involve me boarding a train and travelling without a ticket with only verbal authority to travel. But would I be believed if I followed that advice, because ostensibly I would be doing exactly what Adam_ did.

Please Mr Railwayman, what should I, as an honest customer, do?

 

[najaB]

Please Mr Railwayman, what should I, as an honest customer, do?

I'm not a railwayman, but under the NRCoC it was pretty straightforward: buy a ticket - any ticket - and exchange it for the ticket you need. Now it's not so clear cut.

 

[londonbridge]

Surely the answer is to get the name of the staff member you spoke to before boarding?

 

[Silverdale]

The penalty fare guidelines say that making a note of the name (badge) can assist with later verification. But not all staff have a name badge. Are rail staff obliged to show ID, when asked?

In any case, even with a name, it can only assist. I still couldn't prove that the named individual had given me the authority to travel, should they be unable to recall it (for whatever reason) when asked.