it’s a fairly safe bet that standard class passengers and taxpayers will indeed be paying for 1st class refreshments.

[Djgr]

I think I’m right in saying there’s no complimentary catering in Standard Premium?

Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!

If First Class was actually super-premium (I'm thinking 1+1 leather seating and a gourmet silver service meal) then that would make a lot of sense, but it isn't. SP and an M&S banquet is in my view far better value, unless you get a Seatfrog upgrade.

 

[Falcon1200]

Therefore the cost of providing first class refreshments can only be paid for out of these, to the extent the premium paid by first class passengers doesn’t cover them.

I could not disagree more!

Last year I booked tickets for my Mum, with a Senior Railcard, on Avanti from Euston to Glasgow Central and back. The cost - each way - £50 in Standard Premium, £200 (two hundred pounds) in First Class! (And on that particular operator, the First Class offering has been reduced, from four (on some sets) to three, and now two on all, coaches; And at weekends, one coach only). The price of First Class tickets therefore covers the cost of the catering offered, several times over.

 

[Deepgreen]

A curious thread. My take is that the railway as a whole is subsidised by the taxpayer (now more so than when nationalised, but that's been covered elsewhere!). That subsidy is not divided between first and standard class, because higher first class fares do that. Whether those higher fares exactly cover all the costs of providing first class (including the opportunity costs of more standard class seats) is debatable and extremely hard to be sure of. It depends on so many things, such as the number of dedicated first class staff, the costs of the seats themselves, the cost of the catering, etc.

 

[deltic]

Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!

As many businesses and public sector bodies ban the use of first class, staff can use standard premium so its a good way of utilising space that otherwise would have been empty and get higher revenue than from standard alone while still catering for the few remaining passengers who are prepared to pay full whack for first.

 

[mike57]

Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!

Which of course brings us full circle as at the start of railways there three classes in the UK.

I think a range of offerings with different fares, comfort levels and possibly inclusive food and drink is the right approach. I dont like the one size fits all approach, everybody should be given a choice. I would expect that the range of offerings to be broadly revenue neutral, with the extra space or refreshments being covered by the increase in fare, but not excessivley more expensive either.

Where there are open access operators they can fill gaps left by the franchised operator. On the ECML Lumo are doing that at the budget end, and if you look at our local operator Hull Trains they have a well used and popular 1st Class offering which is afforable. As an open access operator one assumes Hull Trains have done their sums and are covering costs in both classes.

I would argue that 2nd (standard) class comfort levels have dropped over my lifetime, so having a broader range of better quality offerings makes sense.

 

[RailWonderer]

Correct. With the upgrade prices it's basically Euro-1st - about 50% on top of the fare for a seat that provides about 50% more space.

I do find myself upgrading half the time when travelling in Europe, compared to the UK where it's just the occasional Seatfrog upgrade for me. Some of the interiors feel very spacious and have compartments like on the ICEs and Railjets so that factors into it for me.

 

[Djgr]

If First Class was actually super-premium (I'm thinking 1+1 leather seating and a gourmet silver service meal) then that would make a lot of sense, but it isn't. SP and an M&S banquet is in my view far better value, unless you get a Seatfrog upgrade.

When people are arguing about whether it should be 1 or 2 (classes), it's hard to accept that the correct answer is 3!

 

[HSTEd]

I am no longer convinced that the complication of first class provision on the railway is really justified by the extra income.

Personally I wonder if it worsens the issues with the railway by allowing a substantial part of its customer base, an influential portion, to avoid contact with the overcrowding and other issues that afflict standard class. That would then give that, particularly influential, group a rosy view of the reality of the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When people are arguing about whether it should be 1 or 2 (classes), it's hard to accept that the correct answer is 3!

For local and regional service, it should be 1. And it's headed that way, with only a few of the regional/commuter operators persisting with it.

For long distance service, I think like with air travel there is sense in having different price points and comfort levels. The thing for a lot of debate is whether the middle one should be Standard style seating (or slightly upgraded 2+2, say like Avanti Voyager coach D) but the main thing being freebies, or whether it should be a First Class style seat without any freebies. You see both models if you look around Europe. I prefer the improved seat, but as many people will prefer the goodies. (BR flirted with the latter with Silver Standard and the "Voyager" product that later gave its name to the units).

 

[Howardh]

For local and regional service, it should be 1. And it's headed that way, with only a few of the regional/commuter operators persisting with it.

For long distance service, I think like with air travel there is sense in having different price points and comfort levels. The thing for a lot of debate is whether the middle one should be Standard style seating (or slightly upgraded 2+2, say like Avanti Voyager coach D) but the main thing being freebies, or whether it should be a First Class style seat without any freebies. You see both models if you look around Europe. I prefer the improved seat, but as many people will prefer the goodies. (BR flirted with the latter with Silver Standard and the "Voyager" product that later gave its name to the units).

For me, 1 + 2 without freebies for something like 30%-ish add-on. I look at so-called "first class" on Thameslink which is 2x2 maybe with a table and my reaction is "what's the point??"

 

[Bletchleyite]

For me, 1 + 2 without freebies for something like 30%-ish add-on. I look at so-called "first class" on Thameslink which is 2x2 maybe with a table and my reaction is "what's the point??"

30% add on wouldn't be profitable. First class seats (wider and more legroom) take up about 50% more floorspace than Standard seats, thus unless the uplift is 50% minimum it won't make any money compared to hvaing that space as Standard. If you want freebies as well it needs to be higher.

 

[duffield]

I am no longer convinced that the complication of first class provision on the railway is really justified by the extra income.

Personally I wonder if it worsens the issues with the railway by allowing a substantial part of its customer base, an influential portion, to avoid contact with the overcrowding and other issues that afflict standard class. That would then give that, particularly influential, group a rosy view of the reality of the railway.

I would think there's a good chance that if these "influential types" had their 1st class removed it wouldn't get them in contact with the overcrowding etc. since they would just abandon the railways altogether, and would then care even less about their state. At least in 1st they still get to experience the same delays and cancellations as everyone else, if not the overcrowding.

 

[deltic]

30% add on wouldn't be profitable. First class seats (wider and more legroom) take up about 50% more floorspace than Standard seats, thus unless the uplift is 50% minimum it won't make any money compared to hvaing that space as Standard. If you want freebies as well it needs to be higher.

It is if you are getting 30% more revenue out of a person and you are not preventing a standard class passenger from travelling. Not that many trains are 100% full.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is if you are getting 30% more revenue out of a person and you are not preventing a standard class passenger from travelling. Not that many trains are 100% full.

Fair point, I guess that's where the likes of Seatfrog come in on quiet trains. When it's quiet, even £1 of extra revenue is extra profit.

 

[43066]

I will happily pay a premium for first class. Nowadays most of my rail travel is for leisure, I like the extra space, food and drink. I have a bad knee and my wife has a bad back, and first class is more comfortable. On a typical journey to say London, 3+ hours from home this makes a big difference. Currently that premium typically may be £50 standard v £90 first each return using advance tickets with a rail card.

Yes it’s a better experience, but the “premium” paid by railcard holders travelling on advanced tickets is of course a lot less than that paid by those paying the full fare open return on business, who were the traditional first class passengers.

So do you abandon this group, and hope that they still use the railways. Personally I would rather there is a range of options to suit all budgets and needs

Certainly agree with this. Although the elephant in the room on the railway is capacity, so inevitably people wishing to pay less will find themselves being squeezed out as numbers rise.

Correct. With the upgrade prices it's basically Euro-1st - about 50% on top of the fare for a seat that provides about 50% more space.

Thanks. So this is moving closer to the model seen on SWR etc. better seat/environment, no catering.

Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!

Yes. It seems they’ve wised up to being able to charge more for better seats, but without the expense of providing catering.

I could not disagree more!

Last year I booked tickets for my Mum, with a Senior Railcard, on Avanti from Euston to Glasgow Central and back. The cost - each way - £50 in Standard Premium, £200 (two hundred pounds) in First Class! (And on that particular operator, the First Class offering has been reduced, from four (on some sets) to three, and now two on all, coaches; And at weekends, one coach only). The price of First Class tickets therefore covers the cost of the catering offered, several times over.

That’s just one example of ticket prices on one route (again being sold at a discount), it tells us nothing about the overall financial picture. The fact that first provision has been reduced in favour of standard premium rather tells its own story, don’t you think?

Whether those higher fares exactly cover all the costs of providing first class (including the opportunity costs of more standard class seats) is debatable and extremely hard to be sure of. It depends on so many things, such as the number of dedicated first class staff, the costs of the seats themselves, the cost of the catering, etc.

I probably wouldn’t have chosen to create a thread specifically on this topic. This one was spun out of a discussion on another thread where someone claimed to be shocked at the suggestion that standard class passengers or taxpayers might ever cross subsidise complimentary first class refreshments. As you say, I don’t think it’s clear that that isn’t ever the case.

 

[Horizon22]

First class revenue is way way down on pre-COVID, far more than revenue as a whole. Those peak first class ticket sales have gone and while first advance sales may be doing okay they don't make up more than a small share of the revenue lost.

I imagine there was a lot of high business travellers using 1st, whereas those meetings are generally done on Teams now. Some face-to-face meetings will still be done by senior business execs, but I imagine that still won't involve 1st class rail travel very often.

 

[Falcon1200]

The fact that first provision has been reduced in favour of standard premium rather tells its own story, don’t you think?

What it tells me is that despite offering 'complimentary' food and drink, subsidised (apparently) by Standard Class passengers and the taxpayer, Avanti still could not fill their First Class coaches! It is perhaps noteworthy that no other operator has gone for a three-class system, nor reduced their First Class capacity in the way that Avanti has.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What it tells me is that despite offering 'complimentary' food and drink, subsidised (apparently) by Standard Class passengers and the taxpayer, Avanti still could not fill their First Class coaches! It is perhaps noteworthy that no other operator has gone for a three-class system, nor reduced their First Class capacity in the way that Avanti has.

GWR's First Class is fairly close to Avanti's Standard Premium, with very few freebies. Greater Anglia similarly.

 

[Birkonian]

What it tells me is that despite offering 'complimentary' food and drink, subsidised (apparently) by Standard Class passengers and the taxpayer, Avanti still could not fill their First Class coaches! It is perhaps noteworthy that no other operator has gone for a three-class system, nor reduced their First Class capacity in the way that Avanti has.

The large price difference between Aanti Standard Premium and 1st class provision that 1st class passengers are being overcharged for the food offer.

 

[185]

No pokey little train under six cars should ever have a full coach of first class, if any FC at all.

And that "ooh but they go in multiple" nonsense doesn't wash with me, seeing some operators running 2-car 1980s dusty bins on a three hour supposed intercity service into Manchester Pic.

XC running 4-car little Voyagers with same or less seats than the Glossop local train, with 25% being an underused First Class car with 4-5 people in simply has to end.

The subsidised peanuts and gloopy coffee are a red herring - first class itself has outstayed it's welcome and on most routes fails to subsidise itself, hence recent abandonments at two TOCs.

Many services primarily have £15 advance tickets, retired railway managers, wives, their dependants - and mostly, freeloading railway managers. Becoming a rarity to see a full price open FC ticket or even an advance over £40.

Today's insensitive rant over.

 

[Egg Centric]

No pokey little train under six cars should ever have a full coach of first class, if any FC at all.

And that "ooh but they go in multiple" nonsense doesn't wash with me, seeing some operators running 2-car 1980s dusty bins on a three hour supposed intercity service into Manchester Pic.

XC running 4-car little Voyagers with same or less seats than the Glossop local train, with 25% being an underused First Class car with 4-5 people in simply has to end.

The subsidised peanuts and gloopy coffee are a red herring - first class itself has outstayed it's welcome and on most routes fails to subsidise itself, hence recent abandonments at two TOCs.

Many services primarily have £15 advance tickets, retired railway managers, wives, their dependants - and mostly, freeloading railway managers. Becoming a rarity to see a full price open FC ticket or even an advance over £40.

Today's insensitive rant over.

Fine but I won't be travelling long distance in standard class seats and I have alternatives...

 

[DarloRich]

Fine but I won't be travelling long distance in standard class seats

may i ask why?

 

[Egg Centric]

may i ask why?

Too fat to fit comfortably. This is fine if I'm e.g. with my wife but not for me (or the person next to me!) if I'm on my own.

First class can arrange to be on the 1 side of 1x2.

First class is also far more civilised if I want to work, but the former is the fundamental reason.

 

[DarloRich]

Too fat to fit comfortably

i am fairly rotund and manage

 

[Egg Centric]

i am fairly rotund and manage

Image shows me chilling in the first class lounge at Donny

 

[JamieL]

I would just ban first class. All passengers should get the same service

I wouldn't travel by train if there was no First Class. I use Avanti so my views are shaped by that experience which, barring the actual train service itself, I think the First Class offering is good. The food offering itself is less important than the policing of First Class that comes with the stewards. It makes it a much nicer experience than on GWR or SWR where anyone can use First Class compartments without appropriate tickets.

I think the railway needs to cater for all, just like any other walk of life. There should be ultra cheap fares in standard (but expectationit might be busy), second class (Standard Premium) with more space and a decent First offering. Very happy to pay a premium for the latter.

 

[andythebrave]

I wouldn't travel by train if there was no First Class. I use Avanti so my views are shaped by that experience which, barring the actual train service itself, I think the First Class offering is good. The food offering itself is less important than the policing of First Class that comes with the stewards. It makes it a much nicer experience than on GWR or SWR where anyone can use First Class compartments without appropriate tickets.

I think the railway needs to cater for all, just like any other walk of life. There should be ultra cheap fares in standard (but expectationit might be busy), second class (Standard Premium) with more space and a decent First offering. Very happy to pay a premium for the latter.

100% this.
Neither would I and I am now restricted to Avanti as LNER's first is too often full to the rafters and noisy as a result.
Fortunately, Avanti's offer is very good and the staff are unfailingly excellent

 

[bramling]

For me, 1 + 2 without freebies for something like 30%-ish add-on. I look at so-called "first class" on Thameslink which is 2x2 maybe with a table and my reaction is "what's the point??"

In theory there would be a lot of point on Thameslink, as it represents the difference between an accommodation that’s “not too bad”, and one that’s absolutely awful. However with the rear of 700s being declassified then it does call into question why anyone would want to pay for it, especially as both declassified and normal first have a habit of being full of dross, especially at weekends.

Meanwhile we have the other GTR speciality which on their Electrostars is first being absolutely identical to standard bar the antimacassar.

 

[OLJR]

I would not support the division of 1ST into 1ST and STD+ on the ECML. I would however support the re-introduction of the Restaurant, which creates a 1ST+ product in effect. Here in the UK stage lengths are not long enough to warrant a business class product with flat bed. They are however long enough that the catering product is pretty shoddy for the serious diner.

Good meals on the train were a lifestyle thing back in the 20th century and I do not see why, appropriately marketed, they could not be again. GNER operated the Restaurant for years, presumably profitably. It always seemed full whenever I went in it. London is full of people regularly paying £100-a-head for lunch/dinner so I think demand could be there. Companies may not pay for 1ST but they will pay for dinner, hence people expense their Seat Frogs as meals.

Personally, I would rather pay an extra £40 for a pair of plump Craster kippers and unlimited toast than have the small breakfast (no toast) that everybody gets these days. On my trip to London tomorrow I will get a toasted tea cake. Whoop-de-flippin-doo...

Question is: can galleys on the the Azumas prepare a proper breakfast and three-course lunch/dinner?

Here is a back of the envelope calculation:

Current model: 1ST = £50 premium or £25 Seat Frog, say £35 on average
Restaurant model (breakfast @ £40, 75% margin): 1ST = £50 premium + £40 x 75% = £80 profit or £40 x 75% STD + breakfast Seat Frog equivalent = £30, say £55 on average
Restaurant model (lunch/dinner @ £60, 75% margin): 1ST = £50 premium + £60 x 75% = £95 profit or £60 x 75% STD + breakfast Seat Frog equivalent = £45, say £70 on average.