Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!I think I’m right in saying there’s no complimentary catering in Standard Premium?
Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!I think I’m right in saying there’s no complimentary catering in Standard Premium?
Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!
Therefore the cost of providing first class refreshments can only be paid for out of these, to the extent the premium paid by first class passengers doesn’t cover them.
As many businesses and public sector bodies ban the use of first class, staff can use standard premium so its a good way of utilising space that otherwise would have been empty and get higher revenue than from standard alone while still catering for the few remaining passengers who are prepared to pay full whack for first.Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!
Which of course brings us full circle as at the start of railways there three classes in the UK.Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!
I do find myself upgrading half the time when travelling in Europe, compared to the UK where it's just the occasional Seatfrog upgrade for me. Some of the interiors feel very spacious and have compartments like on the ICEs and Railjets so that factors into it for me.Correct. With the upgrade prices it's basically Euro-1st - about 50% on top of the fare for a seat that provides about 50% more space.
When people are arguing about whether it should be 1 or 2 (classes), it's hard to accept that the correct answer is 3!If First Class was actually super-premium (I'm thinking 1+1 leather seating and a gourmet silver service meal) then that would make a lot of sense, but it isn't. SP and an M&S banquet is in my view far better value, unless you get a Seatfrog upgrade.
When people are arguing about whether it should be 1 or 2 (classes), it's hard to accept that the correct answer is 3!
For me, 1 + 2 without freebies for something like 30%-ish add-on. I look at so-called "first class" on Thameslink which is 2x2 maybe with a table and my reaction is "what's the point??"For local and regional service, it should be 1. And it's headed that way, with only a few of the regional/commuter operators persisting with it.
For long distance service, I think like with air travel there is sense in having different price points and comfort levels. The thing for a lot of debate is whether the middle one should be Standard style seating (or slightly upgraded 2+2, say like Avanti Voyager coach D) but the main thing being freebies, or whether it should be a First Class style seat without any freebies. You see both models if you look around Europe. I prefer the improved seat, but as many people will prefer the goodies. (BR flirted with the latter with Silver Standard and the "Voyager" product that later gave its name to the units).
For me, 1 + 2 without freebies for something like 30%-ish add-on. I look at so-called "first class" on Thameslink which is 2x2 maybe with a table and my reaction is "what's the point??"
I would think there's a good chance that if these "influential types" had their 1st class removed it wouldn't get them in contact with the overcrowding etc. since they would just abandon the railways altogether, and would then care even less about their state. At least in 1st they still get to experience the same delays and cancellations as everyone else, if not the overcrowding.I am no longer convinced that the complication of first class provision on the railway is really justified by the extra income.
Personally I wonder if it worsens the issues with the railway by allowing a substantial part of its customer base, an influential portion, to avoid contact with the overcrowding and other issues that afflict standard class. That would then give that, particularly influential, group a rosy view of the reality of the railway.
It is if you are getting 30% more revenue out of a person and you are not preventing a standard class passenger from travelling. Not that many trains are 100% full.30% add on wouldn't be profitable. First class seats (wider and more legroom) take up about 50% more floorspace than Standard seats, thus unless the uplift is 50% minimum it won't make any money compared to hvaing that space as Standard. If you want freebies as well it needs to be higher.
It is if you are getting 30% more revenue out of a person and you are not preventing a standard class passenger from travelling. Not that many trains are 100% full.
I will happily pay a premium for first class. Nowadays most of my rail travel is for leisure, I like the extra space, food and drink. I have a bad knee and my wife has a bad back, and first class is more comfortable. On a typical journey to say London, 3+ hours from home this makes a big difference. Currently that premium typically may be £50 standard v £90 first each return using advance tickets with a rail card.
So do you abandon this group, and hope that they still use the railways. Personally I would rather there is a range of options to suit all budgets and needs
Correct. With the upgrade prices it's basically Euro-1st - about 50% on top of the fare for a seat that provides about 50% more space.
Whilst this thread is talking about the merits of a single class, Avanti have gone and introduced a three class approach!
I could not disagree more!
Last year I booked tickets for my Mum, with a Senior Railcard, on Avanti from Euston to Glasgow Central and back. The cost - each way - £50 in Standard Premium, £200 (two hundred pounds) in First Class! (And on that particular operator, the First Class offering has been reduced, from four (on some sets) to three, and now two on all, coaches; And at weekends, one coach only). The price of First Class tickets therefore covers the cost of the catering offered, several times over.
Whether those higher fares exactly cover all the costs of providing first class (including the opportunity costs of more standard class seats) is debatable and extremely hard to be sure of. It depends on so many things, such as the number of dedicated first class staff, the costs of the seats themselves, the cost of the catering, etc.
First class revenue is way way down on pre-COVID, far more than revenue as a whole. Those peak first class ticket sales have gone and while first advance sales may be doing okay they don't make up more than a small share of the revenue lost.
The fact that first provision has been reduced in favour of standard premium rather tells its own story, don’t you think?
What it tells me is that despite offering 'complimentary' food and drink, subsidised (apparently) by Standard Class passengers and the taxpayer, Avanti still could not fill their First Class coaches! It is perhaps noteworthy that no other operator has gone for a three-class system, nor reduced their First Class capacity in the way that Avanti has.
The large price difference between Aanti Standard Premium and 1st class provision that 1st class passengers are being overcharged for the food offer.What it tells me is that despite offering 'complimentary' food and drink, subsidised (apparently) by Standard Class passengers and the taxpayer, Avanti still could not fill their First Class coaches! It is perhaps noteworthy that no other operator has gone for a three-class system, nor reduced their First Class capacity in the way that Avanti has.
No pokey little train under six cars should ever have a full coach of first class, if any FC at all.
And that "ooh but they go in multiple" nonsense doesn't wash with me, seeing some operators running 2-car 1980s dusty bins on a three hour supposed intercity service into Manchester Pic.
XC running 4-car little Voyagers with same or less seats than the Glossop local train, with 25% being an underused First Class car with 4-5 people in simply has to end.
The subsidised peanuts and gloopy coffee are a red herring - first class itself has outstayed it's welcome and on most routes fails to subsidise itself, hence recent abandonments at two TOCs.
Many services primarily have £15 advance tickets, retired railway managers, wives, their dependants - and mostly, freeloading railway managers. Becoming a rarity to see a full price open FC ticket or even an advance over £40.
Today's insensitive rant over.
may i ask why?Fine but I won't be travelling long distance in standard class seats
may i ask why?
i am fairly rotund and manageToo fat to fit comfortably
i am fairly rotund and manage
I wouldn't travel by train if there was no First Class. I use Avanti so my views are shaped by that experience which, barring the actual train service itself, I think the First Class offering is good. The food offering itself is less important than the policing of First Class that comes with the stewards. It makes it a much nicer experience than on GWR or SWR where anyone can use First Class compartments without appropriate tickets.I would just ban first class. All passengers should get the same service
100% this.I wouldn't travel by train if there was no First Class. I use Avanti so my views are shaped by that experience which, barring the actual train service itself, I think the First Class offering is good. The food offering itself is less important than the policing of First Class that comes with the stewards. It makes it a much nicer experience than on GWR or SWR where anyone can use First Class compartments without appropriate tickets.
I think the railway needs to cater for all, just like any other walk of life. There should be ultra cheap fares in standard (but expectationit might be busy), second class (Standard Premium) with more space and a decent First offering. Very happy to pay a premium for the latter.
For me, 1 + 2 without freebies for something like 30%-ish add-on. I look at so-called "first class" on Thameslink which is 2x2 maybe with a table and my reaction is "what's the point??"