Javelins and the like

[Purple Orange]

Are there any other examples of high speed trains in the world that are like the Javelin trains? Commuter layout, doors at thirds, minimum 140mph.

 

[philg999]

What do you mean by ‘commuter layout’? Many of the Chinese high speed trains are low on the comfort and high on the density:

 

[DanNCL]

The CRH6A units in China have a top speed of 250 kph (155 mph), have doors at the thirds and fulfils a similar role to the 395s. Other versions of the CRH6 have lower top speeds.

Kodama services on the Tokaido Shinkansen perform a similar role but wouldn't count here as they use standard Intercity spec N700 Shinkansen units.

 

[Purple Orange]

What do you mean by ‘commuter layout’? Many of the Chinese high speed trains are low on the comfort and high on the density:

Designed with commuters in mind, rather than long distance travellers. No first class, no buffet/refreshments, basic interior, room for standing, etc.

The CRH6A units in China have a top speed of 250 kph (155 mph), have doors at the thirds and fulfils a similar role to the 395s. Other versions of the CRH6 have lower top speeds.

Kodama services on the Tokaido Shinkansen perform a similar role but wouldn't count here as they use standard Intercity spec N700 Shinkansen units.

Thanks. They look like interesting units. Basically I was wondering if the Javelins were a one-off or if similar were in operation elsewhere. I could see something like the Javelin used for NPR.

 

[Bald Rick]

Best example is RENFEs Avant trains, which do shorter journeys on their high speed network, eg Madrid - Toledo (70km). I think they typically have a max speed of 250kph.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

The general view in Germany seems to be that it's not worth the expense and effort of exceeding 200km/h / 125mph on regional services even if running on new-build high speed lines which support faster running and have few stations. All current and planned stock for these services is 200 km/h only(still above the normal 160 km/h).

A quick calculation shows that even taking a generous view of possible performance it would take at least 10 minutes for a Javelin to accelerate from a station stop to 140 mph and then stop again, so at best compared to a 125mph train it shaves off a bit of time between Ebbsfleet and Ashford.

A cynic might say 140mph is more about being symbolically slightly faster than any other previous domestic train than any practical benefit, hence the lack of any other regional trains built for that speed. Then again, maybe I'm just jealous

 

[philg999]

In NL we have just the one high speed line but aside from the Thalys/Eurostar they are not planning to run anything faster than 200kmh (124mph) on it. I believe the reason is the small time saving you’d get between Schiphol and Rotterdam, Rotterdam and Breda, and Breda and Antwerp, isn’t worth the huge additional expense needed for very-high-speed stock. If your HSL is 50 miles long and only has 1 or 2 super-fast services on it every hour there isn’t really a need for the other traffic on it to go quite so fast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there any other examples of high speed trains in the world that are like the Javelin trains? Commuter layout, doors at thirds, minimum 140mph.

DB does have commuter services on one of the high speed lines (around Nuernberg if I recall) but they're run using end-doored 200km/h hauled stock so don't quite qualify.

 

[rvdborgt]

DB does have commuter services on one of the high speed lines (around Nuernberg if I recall) but they're run using end-doored 200km/h hauled stock so don't quite qualify.

On Munich-Nuremberg, the hauled stock has been replaced by double deck push-pull sets. They have end doors but I'd definitely call them commuter stock. However they "only" reach 190 km/h.
I think the hauled (ex-IC) stock has now gone to the new (temporary) Wendlingen-Ulm services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On Munich-Nuremberg, the hauled stock has been replaced by double deck push-pull sets. They have end doors but I'd definitely call them commuter stock. However they "only" reach 190 km/h.
I think the hauled (ex-IC) stock has now gone to the new (temporary) Wendlingen-Ulm services.

Thanks.

The whole operation is quite interesting - it's the equivalent of running a local service on HS2 with 91+Mk4, which I guess shows how much slack they have in their system!

 

[Joe Paxton]

[...]
A quick calculation shows that even taking a generous view of possible performance it would take at least 10 minutes for a Javelin to accelerate from a station stop to 140 mph and then stop again, so at best compared to a 125mph train it shaves off a bit of time between Ebbsfleet and Ashford.

A cynic might say 140mph is more about being symbolically slightly faster than any other previous domestic train than any practical benefit, hence the lack of any other regional trains built for that speed. Then again, maybe I'm just jealous

My somewhat dated and possibly wonky recollection is that Javelin trains on HS1 were initially (and possibly still are) timetabled for 125mph operation on HS1, with 140mph capability being used to catch up if the service has been delayed. I think significant importance was attached to ensuring that the introduction of domestic Javelin services did not result in snarl ups for the cross-channel Eurostar service on HS1.

(Edit: typo)

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

My somewhat dated and possibly wonky ecollection is that Javelin trains on HS1 were initially (and possibly still are) timetabled for 125mph operation on HS1, with 140mph capability being used to catch up if the service has been delayed. I think significant importance was attached to ensuring that the introduction of domestic Javelin services did not result in snarl ups for the cross-channel Eurostar service on HS1.

Which is why the Javelins tend to get looped to be put out of the way of Eurostars!

 

[Purple Orange]

My somewhat dated and possibly wonky ecollection is that Javelin trains on HS1 were initially (and possibly still are) timetabled for 125mph operation on HS1, with 140mph capability being used to catch up if the service has been delayed. I think significant importance was attached to ensuring that the introduction of domestic Javelin services did not result in snarl ups for the cross-channel Eurostar service on HS1.

This is why I think NPR services and the Birmingham-Nottingham shuttle will be similar.

Thanks.

The whole operation is quite interesting - it's the equivalent of running a local service on HS2 with 91+Mk4, which I guess shows how much slack they have in their system!

If that happens on the HS2 network it would rightly be called a waste of capacity.

 

[notadriver]

They only get looped if running ECS or they may get held at Ebbsfleet / Stratford station to let a Eurostar through.

140 mph running is still the norm - not 125 mph as when the service started.

 

[eastwestdivide]

As a regular user of the Javelins, I nearly always record them in the high 130s mph between Stratford and Ebbsfleet, whether running late or not.

 

[notadriver]

The general view in Germany seems to be that it's not worth the expense and effort of exceeding 200km/h / 125mph on regional services even if running on new-build high speed lines which support faster running and have few stations. All current and planned stock for these services is 200 km/h only(still above the normal 160 km/h).

A quick calculation shows that even taking a generous view of possible performance it would take at least 10 minutes for a Javelin to accelerate from a station stop to 140 mph and then stop again, so at best compared to a 125mph train it shaves off a bit of time between Ebbsfleet and Ashford.

A cynic might say 140mph is more about being symbolically slightly faster than any other previous domestic train than any practical benefit, hence the lack of any other regional trains built for that speed. Then again, maybe I'm just jealous

You could say that for any increase - which historically has been in increments like that. 90-100-110-125 ?

 

[Taunton]

The general view in Germany seems to be that it's not worth the expense and effort of exceeding 200km/h / 125mph on regional services even if running on new-build high speed lines which support faster running and have few stations. All current and planned stock for these services is 200 km/h only(still above the normal 160 km/h).

A quick calculation shows that even taking a generous view of possible performance it would take at least 10 minutes for a Javelin to accelerate from a station stop to 140 mph and then stop again, so at best compared to a 125mph train it shaves off a bit of time between Ebbsfleet and Ashford.

A cynic might say 140mph is more about being symbolically slightly faster than any other previous domestic train than any practical benefit, hence the lack of any other regional trains built for that speed.

Is it not that they run at 140mph between St Pancras and Ashford etc, to avoid Eurostars running them down, but then stop every few minutes across the rest of Kent to Ramsgate, with traditional Southern Railway-style 30-second stops, for which they need easy in/out doors?

 

[dutchflyer]

In China all trains with seated cars-which includes all the now many 10.000s KM of hi-speed have in 2nd/standard 2+3 basic seats. As its all reserved, no standees allowed. Very strict entry controls.
In Japan thats also the standard, but no entry-checks-most ShinKanSen have half reserved and half non (or at least that was the case when I was there-quite some time ago now).
In ESpana on RENFE all hi-speed is also fully reserved and its at least reclining seats and also not overly strict entry controls.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In China all trains with seated cars-which includes all the now many 10.000s KM of hi-speed have in 2nd/standard 2+3 basic seats. As its all reserved, no standees allowed. Very strict entry controls.
In Japan thats also the standard, but no entry-checks-most ShinKanSen have half reserved and half non (or at least that was the case when I was there-quite some time ago now).
In ESpana on RENFE all hi-speed is also fully reserved and its at least reclining seats and also not overly strict entry controls.

While 3+2 is the norm in both India and China in the basic class (and often 2+2 in "1st"), don't forget that the trains are much wider than ours and so the actual seat width is very similar to our 2+2. So I wouldn't say this indicated it being a commuter style service.

 

[Taunton]

While 3+2 is the norm in both India and China in the basic class (and often 2+2 in "1st"), don't forget that the trains are much wider than ours and so the actual seat width is very similar to our 2+2. So I wouldn't say this indicated it being a commuter style service.

Not just basic services. Japanese Shinkansen are 3+2.

Russian commuter is 3+3. Heavy winter coats and all.

 

[DanielB]

In NL we have just the one high speed line but aside from the Thalys/Eurostar they are not planning to run anything faster than 200kmh (124mph) on it. I believe the reason is the small time saving you’d get between Schiphol and Rotterdam, Rotterdam and Breda, and Breda and Antwerp, isn’t worth the huge additional expense needed for very-high-speed stock. If your HSL is 50 miles long and only has 1 or 2 super-fast services on it every hour there isn’t really a need for the other traffic on it to go quite so fast.

Well, the Fyra was actually supposed to run at 250 km/h on it before they started losing parts on the way

But indeed: domestic commuter services will not run any faster than 200 km/h when ICNG is introduced. The line itself is capable for 300 km/h, but actually a Thalys/Eurostar already has to start braking for Rotterdam when it has just reached 300 after departing from Schiphol. On the southern section only trains going directly to Belgium (so Thalys and Eurostar) will reach 300 km/h, for services branching off to Breda the line is probably too short to run at 300 km/h for long enough to make any sense.

 

[paul1609]

They only get looped if running ECS or they may get held at Ebbsfleet / Stratford station to let a Eurostar through.

140 mph running is still the norm - not 125 mph as when the service started.

Indeed the standard Ashford to Ebbsfleet Off Peak service in the current timetable are scheduled for an average 111 mph start to stop. This makes them the only 110+mph services in the UK and the fastest 33 services.
The Manchester & Scotland Branch Railway comes next with its Token train in the top 50 the 19.52 Stafford to Watford Junction.
The Yorkshire and Newcastle Branch Railway manages a handful of Grantham to Stevenage services in the top 50 but given the state of the branch PW its probably quite brave.
Brunel would cry at the current performance west of Paddington particularly give the fortune squandered by Network Rail on Electrification.

 

[Speed43125]

In China all trains with seated cars-which includes all the now many 10.000s KM of hi-speed have in 2nd/standard 2+3 basic seats. As its all reserved, no standees allowed. Very strict entry controls.
In Japan thats also the standard, but no entry-checks-most ShinKanSen have half reserved and half non (or at least that was the case when I was there-quite some time ago now).
In ESpana on RENFE all hi-speed is also fully reserved and its at least reclining seats and also not overly strict entry controls.

They're trains are a reasonable margin wider than even GC, it's certainly no more cramped than standard 2+2 in the UK.

 

[notadriver]

Does anyone know the name of the French EMU that is equipped to run on LGV lines at its maximum speed of 200 km/h?

 

[DanielB]

The Regio 2N probably? Although I do read that 200 km/h is an option as well for the Régiolis (which makes sense as it's close family of the Dutch ICNG, although not exactly the same type)

 

[SHD]

It’s called the ZTER (Z21500 EMU), the subclass that has been fitted with TVM to run on the LGV Bretagne - Pays de la Loire has been renumbered Z21700.

 

[DanNCL]

Thanks.

The whole operation is quite interesting - it's the equivalent of running a local service on HS2 with 91+Mk4, which I guess shows how much slack they have in their system!

Although the BR102 locos used with the Skoda push-pull sets are much quicker off the mark than a 91!

Which is why the Javelins tend to get looped to be put out of the way of Eurostars!

That very rarely happens. Even at Stratford International, an inbound Eurostar often won’t be given the opportunity to overtake the 395 it’s been following from Ebbsfleet even if the Eurostar service was already late. More likely to happen eastbound as any delay to an Eastbound Eurostar can cause issues on the French network.

Indeed the standard Ashford to Ebbsfleet Off Peak service in the current timetable are scheduled for an average 111 mph start to stop. This makes them the only 110+mph services in the UK and the fastest 33 services.
The Manchester & Scotland Branch Railway comes next with its Token train in the top 50 the 19.52 Stafford to Watford Junction.
The Yorkshire and Newcastle Branch Railway manages a handful of Grantham to Stevenage services in the top 50 but given the state of the branch PW its probably quite brave.
Brunel would cry at the current performance west of Paddington particularly give the fortune squandered by Network Rail on Electrification.

Isn’t there a non stop Kings Cross - Grantham with an average speed of over 110mph too? Certainly used to be multiple such examples, both from Hull Trains with 180s and the ECML TOC with 91s.

 

[paul1609]

Although the BR102 locos used with the Skoda push-pull sets are much quicker off the mark than a 91!


That very rarely happens. Even at Stratford International, an inbound Eurostar often won’t be given the opportunity to overtake the 395 it’s been following from Ebbsfleet even if the Eurostar service was already late. More likely to happen eastbound as any delay to an Eastbound Eurostar can cause issues on the French network.


Isn’t there a non stop Kings Cross - Grantham with an average speed of over 110mph too? Certainly used to be multiple such examples, both from Hull Trains with 180s and the ECML TOC with 91s.

No, the fastest times involving a London Station (Stratford) are the peak non stop Javelins to/from Ashford @ 107.4 mph.
The fastest involving a London Terminal is held by the London Midland Scottish Branch with a 7.13 to Nuneaton @ 105.8
The fastest from Kings Cross is a joint 105.6 mph to York shared by Grand Central and one of OLRs "Dieso-Javelins"

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The whole operation is quite interesting - it's the equivalent of running a local service on HS2 with 91+Mk4, which I guess shows how much slack they have in their system!

Trenitalia runs regional/local services on the Florence-Rome high-speed line (LAV), eg from Arezzo to Florence.
They join and leave the LAV at various points.
It's also the reason the signalling is still classic lights on sticks, although the southern part has now gone over to ETCS.
Proper high speed trains are double-blocked on the old signalling, or something like it.
Of course the line is the oldest HSL in Europe (some of it opened in 1977, pre-dating the French Paris-Lyon LGV).
I don't think the more recent LAVs take anything other than high speed trains.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

That very rarely happens. Even at Stratford International, an inbound Eurostar often won’t be given the opportunity to overtake the 395 it’s been following from Ebbsfleet even if the Eurostar service was already late. More likely to happen eastbound as any delay to an Eastbound Eurostar can cause issues on the French network.

Must’ve been a very rare moment for me then when the Javelin we were following very closely behind was held at SFA to let us pass!

However, we probably managed to pass them in their dwell