Jubilee line extension beyond Stratford

[Sprigibax]

As someone from Walthamstow, I often think that it lacks a rail link to Stratford. With the restoration of the Hall Farm Curve, could Jubilee line services be extended to run on to Lea Bridge, St James Street, Walthamstow Central and possibly even further to Chingford? It could also take over the current Greater Anglia service and extend to Meridian Water. Assuming Stratford - Chingford would be 4tph this would mean 8tph extending beyond Stratford and 16tph still terminating there, but you could extend a few more to Meridian Water if needed.
I know an issue with this would be how you’d need to rework Stratford station, but I’ve looked at the track alignments and building a link between the two lines seems possible.

 

[30907]

Apart from the geography of Stratford (are you going round the London side of Westfield, or tunnelling under everything, to avoid having to demolish too much of the low level station?) your main problem will be that Deep Level tube stock isn't compatible with NR platform heights - I can't see shared platforms being allowed on a new build, and two new platforms at each NR station is going to be expensive.

If you are going to reinstate Hall Farm it has to be served by NR.

 

[swt_passenger]

Apart from the geography of Stratford (are you going round the London side of Westfield, or tunnelling under everything, to avoid having to demolish too much of the low level station?) your main problem will be that Deep Level tube stock isn't compatible with NR platform heights - I can't see shared platforms being allowed on a new build, and two new platforms at each NR station is going to be expensive.

If you are going to reinstate Hall Farm it has to be served by NR.

You could also start a couple of miles nearer West Ham and go completely over the top of Stratford station. At a completely over the top cost…

 

[cle]

Isn't the Jubilee basically full? I think it ends in the absolute right place. Any extension used to be talked about as from North Greenwich, but I think it's generally settled now.

Hall Farm, I would say, would be best for an Overground extension. Stratford starters as another option, but platforms on that side are tough - better to send more through. Meridian Water, if separated from the other services, might well be LO territory too.

 

[bobster1001]

If you are going to reinstate Hall Farm it has to be served by NR.

Not necessarily. If the tube and NR tracks were segregated through Lea Bridge up to the junction, you could curve off to Chingford and have LU take over the whole branch. Clapton could then be served by GA. I agree it's a far fetched idea but not necessarily impossible.

 

[SynthD]

I’ve looked at the track alignments and building a link between the two lines seems possible.

What link do you propose?

What journeys would this make possible? As far as I see, journeys are possible but not a through train. It’s not worth spending much money on cutting out a connection for a few people, especially when empty trains are needed at Stratford for a far greater crowd.

 

[Kjb]

Stratford is far too congested for any practical new rail/tube links to be built, bar one

When and IF the hall farm curve does  FINALLY grt built, new bay platforms may be built behind platforms 10A/11 but all this talk about extending and tunneling is fanciful talk

You are also forgetting about HS1/Eurostar as well - its like somebody proposes a new service over an abandoned rusty siding to serve a back alley to a row of houses for 1 person to use once every 10 years

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Apart from the geography of Stratford (are you going round the London side of Westfield, or tunnelling under everything, to avoid having to demolish too much of the low level station?) your main problem will be that Deep Level tube stock isn't compatible with NR platform heights - I can't see shared platforms being allowed on a new build, and two new platforms at each NR station is going to be expensive.

If you are going to reinstate Hall Farm it has to be served by NR.

Stratford is not the main problem. What happens with the trains when they arrive at Walthamstow Central? There used to be land available for a bay platform on the south side but recent extensive building now prevents that. Highams Park level crossing makes sending the trains forward to Chingford impracticable so the trains would have to turn back at Walthamstow, thus occupying the fairly busy main platforms. This would require very smart working day in, day out. I'll let railway professionals judge if that's feasible.

If, somehow a Walthamstow/Stratford service could be run, it would be busy. It's a great shame this idea was not thought about decades ago when planning the Overground service.

 

[30907]

Stratford is not the main problem. What happens with the trains when they arrive at Walthamstow Central? There used to be land available for a bay platform on the south side but recent extensive building now prevents that. Highams Park level crossing makes sending the trains forward to Chingford impracticable so the trains would have to turn back at Walthamstow, thus occupying the fairly busy main platforms. This would require very smart working day in, day out. I'll let railway professionals judge if that's feasible.

As an amateur I would suggest a turnback siding - between Wood St and the A503 Forest Rd seems possible from maps without huge earthworks/land take.
In fact, history would be repeating itself as older maps show just such a central turnback (and other facilities, but they have now been built over) - though post ww2 the sidings only seem to have been used for berthing between the peaks rather than as turnbacks.

 

[Railperf]

Walthamstow to Stratford is perfectly quick with the connection at Tottenham Hale, so I don't see the justification in spending millions reopening Hall Farm.

 

[MCR247]

As someone from Walthamstow, I often think that it lacks a rail link to Stratford. With the restoration of the Hall Farm Curve, could Jubilee line services be extended to run on to Lea Bridge, St James Street, Walthamstow Central and possibly even further to Chingford? It could also take over the current Greater Anglia service and extend to Meridian Water. Assuming Stratford - Chingford would be 4tph this would mean 8tph extending beyond Stratford and 16tph still terminating there, but you could extend a few more to Meridian Water if needed.
I know an issue with this would be how you’d need to rework Stratford station, but I’ve looked at the track alignments and building a link between the two lines seems possible.

Are we seriously suggesting that people from Chingford and Walthamstow want their services to London to be diverted via Canning Town, Canary Wharf and Canada Water?

The possible link at Stratford also sounds particularly interesting.

 

[Sprigibax]

Are we seriously suggesting that people from Chingford and Walthamstow want their services to London to be diverted via Canning Town, Canary Wharf and Canada Water?

I was suggesting that both the Jubilee line and Overground services run on the same tracks, although as 30907 said, there are issues with this.

 

[miklcct]

I was suggesting that both the Jubilee line and Overground services run on the same tracks, although as 30907 said, there are issues with this.

There are examples overseas where low floor trams and high floor trains share tracks. Their platforms have different heights with trams and trains stopping at different positions. We can simply extend the existing platforms to accommodate both stocks.

 

[MPW]

Just for fun: connect the vic to the jubs, replace all grey and blue paint with colour changing LEDs so they can change between the two colours between Walthamstow central and stratford.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I'm not sure of the issue of extending NLL Overground services north from Stratford to Tottenham or Walthamstow. Or maybe the DLR - which was suggested many years ago in a Modern Railways article.

 

[cle]

I'm not sure of the issue of extending NLL Overground services north from Stratford to Tottenham or Walthamstow. Or maybe the DLR - which was suggested many years ago in a Modern Railways article.

I think the Overground makes most sense. Same type of railway, wiring, platforms at Stratford point the right way, stock is about right.

Cut the Liverpool St service to 2tph and add frequency elsewhere, like Enfield Town which should be a metro.

Then add 4-6tph Overground - which gives all the many Stratford connections, inc Liverpool St ad nauseam.

Worth noting that Walthamstow to H&I will always be quicker via Vic but I expect fair demand to Hackney and Dalston.

 

[30907]

There are examples overseas where low floor trams and high floor trains share tracks. Their platforms have different heights with trams and trains stopping at different positions. We can simply extend the existing platforms to accommodate both stocks.

Indeed, and there's Rotherham Central nearer home. Not impossible, just adding complication.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Walthamstow to Stratford is perfectly quick with the connection at Tottenham Hale, so I don't see the justification in spending millions reopening Hall Farm.

Changing between NR and the Victoria Line at Tottenham Hale is far more elaborate than a same platform change at Walthamstow Central.

I think the Overground makes most sense. Same type of railway, wiring, platforms at Stratford point the right way, stock is about right.

Cut the Liverpool St service to 2tph and add frequency elsewhere, like Enfield Town which should be a metro.

Then add 4-6tph Overground - which gives all the many Stratford connections, inc Liverpool St ad nauseam.

Worth noting that Walthamstow to H&I will always be quicker via Vic but I expect fair demand to Hackney and Dalston.

Well, that would get round the capacity problem between Walthamstow and Chingford but I doubt commuters to Liverpool Street will like the idea!

 

[Sprigibax]

Well, that would get round the capacity problem between Walthamstow and Chingford but I doubt commuters to Liverpool Street will like the idea!

Then you could have 4tph to Liverpool Street as usual, but 2 via Hackney and 2 via Stratford (with a small section of track added the Stratford services could call at Bethnal Green as well)

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Then you could have 4tph to Liverpool Street as usual, but 2 via Hackney and 2 via Stratford (with a small section of track added the Stratford services could call at Bethnal Green as well)

I suspect sending two extra trains an hour from Stratford to Liverpool Street might not be workable, particularly from the platforms in question.

 

[cle]

2tph is fine. They would have plenty of other options.

But the 'via Stratford' Liverpool St was interestingly proferred as an early Crossrail benefit, but obviously not any more. And the Lea Valley starters (now 3-4tph) were not a major thing. Overground wasn't there, or 10tph in peaks either. So it might all be a ton more activity than ever planned.

 

[Bald Rick]

Stratford is not the main problem. What happens with the trains when they arrive at Walthamstow Central? There used to be land available for a bay platform on the south side but recent extensive building now prevents that. Highams Park level crossing makes sending the trains forward to Chingford impracticable

Wait, what?

Resolving Highams Park LX is impractical, but tunnelling under Stratford regional station, the basements of Westfield and HS1 (which itself is located beneath the water table), and building new platforms for the Jubilee, is all practical?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Wait, what?

Resolving Highams Park LX is impractical, but tunnelling under Stratford regional station, the basements of Westfield and HS1 (which itself is located beneath the water table), and building new platforms for the Jubilee, is all practical?

If this totally hypothetical service between Stratford and Walthamstow Central got the go-ahead, the least difficult arrangement would be for it to be run in conjunction with the Meridian Water service and to use the same platforms at Stratford, thereby avoiding any re-construction work there. Obviously this would require the same kind of consistently very smart working practices as at Walthamstow Central and may well not be feasible.

The second least problematical arrangement would be for London Overground to incorporate this service into their existing services to Richmond and Clapham Junction. This would involve substantial re-building of some platforms at Stratford but would not require tunnelling under anything.

2tph is fine. They would have plenty of other options.

That's a very individual opinion. Most people now recognise that in a major conurbation like London, 4 trains an hour off peak is the best option. The service from Chingford is very popular and is a success. There is no point in reducing it in order to try our luck with something else.

 

[Bald Rick]

If this totally hypothetical service between Stratford and Walthamstow Central got the go-ahead, the least difficult arrangement would be for it to be run in conjunction with the Meridian Water service and to use the same platforms at Stratford, thereby avoiding any re-construction work there. Obviously this would require the same kind of consistently very smart working practices as at Walthamstow Central and may well not be feasible.

The second least problematical arrangement would be for London Overground to incorporate this service into their existing services to Richmond and Clapham Junction. This would involve substantial re-building of some platforms at Stratford but would not require tunnelling under anything.

But the thread is about extending the Jubilee to Walthamstow or beyond.

In any event, theres no capacity in the existing platforms 11/12 for more services from the Lea Valley. And building more platforms to the east would be very expensive.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

But the thread is about extending the Jubilee to Walthamstow or beyond.

In any event, there's no capacity in the existing platforms 11/12 for more services from the Lea Valley. And building more platforms to the east would be very expensive.

This is a speculative thread within the Speculative Forum and ideas flow freely! With Posts 2, 4 & 7, the notion of the Jubilee Line being extended was knocked on the head. More realistic alternatives were then offered.

At Marylebone some platforms regularly accommodate two separate trains sets. If Platforms 11 &12 at Stratford were lengthened, they might so the same.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This is a speculative thread within the Speculative Forum and ideas flow freely! With Posts 2, 4 & 7, the notion of the Jubilee Line being extended was knocked on the head. More realistic alternatives were then offered.

At Marylebone some platforms regularly accommodate two separate trains sets. If Platforms 11 &12 at Stratford were lengthened, they might so the same.

What about a branch off the Central loop from Wanstead (instead of the train continuing round onto the mainline towards Leytonstone), stopping at an interchange with the Epping branch near the Green Man roundabout, Whipps Cross hospital, Lea Bridge Road and Walthamstow Central?

It'd be around a mile shorter than a Jubilee line extension to W'stow Central, there is no existing rapid transit service to the hospital, and it reduces movements over the junction between the loop and the mainline near Snaresbrook.

 

[PeterC]

What about a branch off the Central loop from Wanstead (instead of the train continuing round onto the mainline towards Leytonstone), stopping at an interchange with the Epping branch near the Green Man roundabout, Whipps Cross hospital, Lea Bridge Road and Walthamstow Central?

It'd be around a mile shorter than a Jubilee line extension to W'stow Central, there is no existing rapid transit service to the hospital, and it reduces movements over the junction between the loop and the mainline near Snaresbrook.

So London passengers from stations along the A12 go via Hainault?

 

[Western Lord]

Walthamstow to Stratford is a bus route. I do wish that people would realise that there are things that heavy rail is good for and things that it isn't (and I include the London Underground, which has more in common with heavy rail than it does with a light rail/metro system).

 

[30907]

What about a branch off the Central loop from Wanstead (instead of the train continuing round onto the mainline towards Leytonstone), stopping at an interchange with the Epping branch near the Green Man roundabout, Whipps Cross hospital, Lea Bridge Road and Walthamstow Central?

Do you mean trains would come from the Redbridge direction? If so, no use for traffic from Stratford.

It'd be around a mile shorter than a Jubilee line extension to W'stow Central, there is no existing rapid transit service to the hospital, and it reduces movements over the junction between the loop and the mainline near Snaresbrook.

It's a burrowing junction (at Leytonstone) so conflict-free.

If you wanted to serve Whipps you could extend the Victoria line towards Redbridge, but I can't see it would carry a huge amount of traffic.

 

[AlastairFraser]

So London passengers from stations along the A12 go via Hainault?

No, they change onto the service at the Green Man interchange station.

Do you mean trains would come from the Redbridge direction? If so, no use for traffic from Stratford.

It's a burrowing junction (at Leytonstone) so conflict-free.

If you wanted to serve Whipps you could extend the Victoria line towards Redbridge, but I can't see it would carry a huge amount of traffic.

As I said above, the interchange station will solve that.

Problem with extending the Vic is where do you end it?