June 2024 reopening of the line between Clitheroe and Hellifield for passenger trains

[Ant158]

My understanding from the discussion at the stakeholder meeting where I first heard about this is that Northern will introduce new return fares from the Manchester/Lancashire area to the S&C stations valid only via Clitheroe, at a price considerably less than the current open return via the longer route. It would make sense to include it in the rover ticket you describe, I agree. But the question did not come up. Advance tickets were not mentioned. They also said the plan was to use a 156. I said that if this service takes off, that will not be enough.

A single 156 will probably get a bit cosy, considering there will also be the usual mix of passengers going between Manchester, Bolton and Blackburn etc plus those getting on to head over to the Dales. I'm wondering if by the time it gets to Clitheroe will it be full and standing, turning people away? Wonder if there will be a conscious effort to encourage those making shorter hops on the route between Manchester and Clitheroe to catch other trains?

Still a single 156 would be better than nothing we have now.

 

[ChrisC]

Is it known whether the North West Rover and North Country Rover tickets' validity will be extended to cover this line?

At the moment, there's a gap between Clitheroe and Hellifield - very possibly because there's currently no passenger service!

(Image below taken from GB Rail Rover guide for the 'North West Rover' ticket.)

View attachment 153011

The North West Rover always used to be valid when the Dalesrail trains ran regularly on Sundays. I used to stay with friends near Blackpool every summer whilst doing a 7 Day NW Rover. Most years on the Sunday I would travel up to Carlisle via the WCML, have a couple of hours wandering around Carlisle, and then travel back to Blackpool on the Dailsrail train.

When I used to do this, between around the years 2000 and 2010, there were originally 2 trains each way on Sundays and these were quite busy, often operated using a pair of Class 156 units.

 

[Ant158]

The North West Rover always used to be valid when the Dalesrail trains ran regularly on Sundays. I used to stay with friends near Blackpool every summer whilst doing a 7 Day NW Rover. Most years on the Sunday I would travel up to Carlisle via the WCML, have a couple of hours wandering around Carlisle, and then travel back to Blackpool on the Dailsrail train.

When I used to do this, between around the years 2000 and 2010, there were originally 2 trains each way on Sundays and these were quite busy, often operated using a pair of Class 156 units.

This does beg the question why 4 car Trains can't now run without the rear 2 locked out on the line if it was done in the past. Clitheroe has actually had a reduction in capacity since the 153's went and 150/3's moved to Yorkshire.

 

[Starmill]

This does beg the question why 4 car Trains can't now run without the rear 2 locked out on the line if it was done in the past. Clitheroe has actually had a reduction in capacity since the 153's went and 150/3's moved to Yorkshire.

Trains can run to Clitheroe with all four cars in use, it's just that it causes station work times to be very long. If there's a corridor connection everyone can use one door worked by the conductor, if there's not a corridor connection it has to be done by opening one door individually on the rear unit. For this reason this generally isn't permitted to Clitheroe, but it can be arranged as a last resort.

 

[InkyScrolls]

This does beg the question why 4 car Trains can't now run without the rear 2 locked out on the line if it was done in the past. Clitheroe has actually had a reduction in capacity since the 153's went and 150/3's moved to Yorkshire.

I think you mean 150/0s.

 

[Ant158]

I think you mean 150/0s.

Yeah think I just had 3 for 3 carriages on the brain lol

 

[Neptune]

Internally they’re known as 150/3 as shown on both unit and crew diagrams.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Internally they’re known as 150/3 as shown on both unit and crew diagrams.

Interesting! I didn't know that - the one 150 I conducted was a /1.

 

[Neptune]

Interesting! I didn't know that - the one 150 I conducted was a /1.

Yes and all 2 car 150’s are down as 150/1 on the unit diagrams and just 150 on the crew diagrams.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As only one train each way is applicable to this (any low cost walk up tickets would be routed by these trains only, like DalesRail low cost tickets were) the only disadvantage of Advances is that they aren't refundable. Otherwise the train service doesn't provide for a more flexible option anyway!

If tracvelling from further afield - Bradford, maybe, or Preston, there will be alternative routes by going east or west from Hellifield (eg via Bradford or Carnforth)
From London it doesn't look like doing the full Manchester- Ribblehead and back is possible, but out to Helifield via Manchester and back via Leeds, or out to Ribblehead via Leeds and back via Blackburn and Preston seem possible

 

[47434]

To my knowledge they're retained purely for (very rare) 150s coming with a Leeds driver from there to Carlisle - I only worked a 150 once in my three years as a conductor.

The risk of that would be huge given CAR don't sign 150's either.

 

[louis97]

Is it known whether the North West Rover and North Country Rover tickets' validity will be extended to cover this line?

At the moment, there's a gap between Clitheroe and Hellifield - very possibly because there's currently no passenger service!

(Image below taken from GB Rail Rover guide for the 'North West Rover' ticket.)

View attachment 153011

The maps available on the Northern website does show both rovers as valid on this route - https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/rangers-and-rovers/rovers#north-west-rover

I suspect the line was removed from the map on GB Rail Rover when the service was withdrawn, likely purely because of the lack of services, as I am fairly sure it used to be there with a note saying limited service.

 

[TheSel]

The maps available on the Northern website does show both rovers as valid on this route - https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/rangers-and-rovers/rovers#north-west-rover

I suspect the line was removed from the map on GB Rail Rover when the service was withdrawn, likely purely because of the lack of services, as I am fairly sure it used to be there with a note saying limited service.

Many Thanks. Much appreciated.

 

[JRT]

The North West Rover always used to be valid when the Dalesrail trains ran regularly on Sundays. I used to stay with friends near Blackpool every summer whilst doing a 7 Day NW Rover. Most years on the Sunday I would travel up to Carlisle via the WCML, have a couple of hours wandering around Carlisle, and then travel back to Blackpool on the Dailsrail train.

When I used to do this, between around the years 2000 and 2010, there were originally 2 trains each way on Sundays and these were quite busy, often operated using a pair of Class 156 units.

I'm sure I've travelled that way on a rover ticket back in the days of S&C diversions

 

[supervalkoinen]

Frustrating that the timings of the Northern morning arrivals at Manchester Vic from Chester/Warrington (to Leeds) mean missing the connection by 3 minutes or a 50-minute wait.

 

[td97]

Frustrating that the timings of the Northern morning arrivals at Manchester Vic from Chester/Warrington (to Leeds) mean missing the connection by 3 minutes or a 50-minute wait.

0653 Chester (0721 Warrington BQ) to Manchester Oxford Rd, then 0806 to Salford Crescent. Or via Preston and Blackburn.

 

[Neptune]

Frustrating that the timings of the Northern morning arrivals at Manchester Vic from Chester/Warrington (to Leeds) mean missing the connection by 3 minutes or a 50-minute wait.

Sadly not every train can arrive at the same time to connect with every service perfectly. I’m sure there’ll be another way around it as Northern aren’t the only TOC between Chester/Warrington and Manchester.

 

[Jack Hay]

Frustrating that the timings of the Northern morning arrivals at Manchester Vic from Chester/Warrington (to Leeds) mean missing the connection by 3 minutes or a 50-minute wai

Sadly not every train can arrive at the same time to connect with every service perfectly. I’m sure there’ll be another way around it as Northern aren’t the only TOC between Chester/Warrington and Manchester

There isn't. TfW has an arrival from Chester at 0754, at Piccadilly... that's cutting it fine for an 0815 departure from Victoria. The previous one of course is 0654. Northern has an arrival at 0719 at Piccadilly (off the Mid Cheshire) and the next is 0819 - too late. Northern's Chester to Leeds service arrives at Victoria at 0718 or 0818. Multiple operators on a route doesn't necessarily mean a better service. There really is nothing better in this case than arriving at Victoria at 0718 and having more than 55 minutes' wait. Time for a good breakfast.

 

[Neptune]

0653 Chester (0721 Warrington BQ) to Manchester Oxford Rd, then 0806 to Salford Crescent. Or via Preston and Blackburn.

Nothing wrong with this suggestion though. Don’t even have to cross Manchester on the tram.

Chester d 0653
Manchester Oxford Road a 0750 d 0806
Salford Crescent a 0812 d 0822
Ribblehead a 1019

16 minutes at Oxford Road and 10 minutes at Salford Crescent.

 

[Llandudno]

Nothing wrong with this suggestion though. Don’t even have to cross Manchester on the tram.

Chester d 0653
Manchester Oxford Road a 0750 d 0806
Salford Crescent a 0812 d 0822
Ribblehead a 1019

16 minutes at Oxford Road and 10 minutes at Salford Crescent.

No way I would risk those connections at Salford if planning a long day out walking in the Dales though!

Although there is a very good chance of delay repay or a free Northern Travel Voucher!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Nothing wrong with this suggestion though. Don’t even have to cross Manchester on the tram.

Chester d 0653
Manchester Oxford Road a 0750 d 0806
Salford Crescent a 0812 d 0822
Ribblehead a 1019

16 minutes at Oxford Road and 10 minutes at Salford Crescent.

At what platform at Manchester Oxford Road would that 16 minute wait be at? Platform 1?

 

[Neptune]

No way I would risk those connections at Salford if planning a long day out walking in the Dales though!

Although there is a very good chance of delay repay or a free Northern Travel Voucher!

Really? So 55 minutes was deemed unacceptable and a solution to that was offered with a double change over the minimum connection time of both stations of 16 minutes then 10 minutes. But than this is deemed unacceptable too?

Ok, hotel in Manchester or move somewhere with a connection time of between 11 & 54 minutes is all that’s left to offer

At what platform at Manchester Oxford Road would that 16 minute wait be at? Platform 1?

P2.

 

[td97]

Or via Preston and Blackburn.

0727 Warrington BQ to 0751 Preston
0823 Preston to 0849 Blackburn
0908 to Ribblehead.
Even enough time for breakfast at Preston.

 

[Jack Hay]

0727 Warrington BQ to 0751 Preston
0823 Preston to 0849 Blackburn
0908 to Ribblehead.
Even enough time for breakfast at Preston.

Best suggestion so far, thank you. I wouldn't risk the Oxford Road / Salford Crescent variation either. You'd be dependent on the Castlefield corridor, twice. The long wait at Victoria and a search for breakfast is more appealing than that. I do quite enjoy a ride over the hills on the Bolton to Blackburn route, even if going via Preston looks a safer bet.

 

[Ant158]

Best suggestion so far, thank you. I wouldn't risk the Oxford Road / Salford Crescent variation either. You'd be dependent on the Castlefield corridor, twice. The long wait at Victoria and a search for breakfast is more appealing than that. I do quite enjoy a ride over the hills on the Bolton to Blackburn route, even if going via Preston looks a safer bet.

Rather than a long wait at Victoria, and to still travel the Blackburn, Bolton stretch you could get the previous Clitheroe service (07.41) and swap to the Ribblehead train there?

 

[Llandudno]

Really? So 55 minutes was deemed unacceptable and a solution to that was offered with a double change over the minimum connection time of both stations of 16 minutes then 10 minutes. But than this is deemed unacceptable too?

Ok, hotel in Manchester or move somewhere with a connection time of between 11 & 54 minutes is all that’s left to offer

P2.

Personally I think our rail network is not reliable enough to plan a full day rambling/walking day out banking on a 10 minute connection. It’s not as if there is another train to Ribblehead an hour or so later..

It’s not necessarily the late running but likely Northern cancellations due to shortage of staff especially at weekends.

 

[Geeves]

Lots of times the train might be cancelled at Vic but the joy of having a depot at Blackburn means at least the Clitheroe bit still runs. You would hope if something goes massively wrong the Blackburn - Ribblehead train would run otherwise there's going to be a whole lot of stuck people at Ribblehead with massive journey on their hands to get back to Blackburn again!

We will see soon enough

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is the situation with any proposed platform upgrading at Clitheroe?

 

[sandpiper]

What is the situation with any proposed platform upgrading at Clitheroe?

There is nothing in the pipeline I believe.

 

[Iskra]

If I wanted to do Sheffield-Ribblehead going one way via Leeds and back via Clitheroe, what ticket would work best? Any suggestions please?