Keith Prince vs passenger with feet on seat

[Wolfie]

This is why people don't intervene.

I have to say though that in such circumstances if any female had put her foot anywhere near my genitals while making a threat I would, should that threat have been anywhere near fulfilled, have had zero hesitation in retaliating physically.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...bustup-on-train-after-woman-put-a3714336.html

The chairman of the London Assembly transport committee has been filmed in a bizarre row on a train with a woman who was accused of putting her muddy feet on his seat.

In an astonishing five-minute bust-up, Conservative councillor Keith Prince was subjected to an increasingly angry tirade from the woman opposite him, who witnesses said had put her shoes up on his chair.

In her angry tirade, the woman eventually calls Mr Prince a “white idiot” as the row escalates.

Mr Prince traded insults with the woman sitting opposite him on the Southeastern train during yesterday's rush-hour. Footage of the exchange was posted on Facebook on the Dartford Rail Travellers Association page....

 

[al78]

This is why people don't intervene.

I have to say though that in such circumstances if any female had put her foot anywhere near my genitals while making a threat I would, should that threat have been anywhere near fulfilled, have had zero hesitation in retaliating physically.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...bustup-on-train-after-woman-put-a3714336.html

Well you could try, and then figure out what to do if she screams "sexual assault, help" at the top of her voice, or find out she is capable of ripping your head off and spitting down your neck.

If you hit a woman, regardless of how much you or anyone else thinks the woman deserved it, you are automatically in the wrong, full stop, end of. That's just the way it is, the woman is right, the man has zero power and can do nothing to stop her.

 

[Watto1990]

I have to say though that in such circumstances if any female had put her foot anywhere near my genitals while making a threat I would, should that threat have been anywhere near fulfilled, have had zero hesitation in retaliating physically.

Course you would.

 

[185143]

Defending a Tory MP isn't something I'd usually do-but he's 100% right to take issue with this! Putting feet on empty seats is bad enough-and that alone would be enough to get you taken off the train and reported on Merseyrail (rightly so, it's disgusting), but to put your feet on a seat that someone is sitting on is bang out of order!

The only time this would be remotely acceptable would be if the passenger had an injury and asked the passenger opposite if they wouldn't mind.

I've seen people physically retaliate for much less in the past!

 

[MG11]

Well you could try, and then figure out what to do if she screams "sexual assault, help" at the top of her voice, or find out she is capable of ripping your head off and spitting down your neck.

If you hit a woman, regardless of how much you or anyone else thinks the woman deserved it, you are automatically in the wrong, full stop, end of. That's just the way it is, the woman is right, the man has zero power and can do nothing to stop her.

If you hit ANYONE, you are in the wrong. Assault is assault, regardless of the genders of the people involved. Though, in the situation you was quoting, the person who was under threat of being kicked, would be allowed to use reasonable force under the Police And Criminal Evidence act to defend themselves.

 

[swt_passenger]

Defending a Tory MP isn't something I'd usually do-but he's 100% right to take issue with this!

He's only a councillor. I don't think the politics are actually relevant at all though...

 

[Darandio]

I don't think the politics are actually relevant at all though...

I agree. I'd hate to think that if someone were in a position that needed help and that help could be given, they would be asked their political affiliation first. If that is how the world is now, I want to get off.

 

[greyman42]

This is why people don't intervene.

I have to say though that in such circumstances if any female had put her foot anywhere near my genitals while making a threat I would, should that threat have been anywhere near fulfilled, have had zero hesitation in retaliating physically.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...bustup-on-train-after-woman-put-a3714336.html

I see the woman called Mr. Prince a "white idiot". Imagine the outcry if he had called her a "black idiot". Double standards?

 

[Wolfie]

If you hit ANYONE, you are in the wrong. Assault is assault, regardless of the genders of the people involved. Though, in the situation you was quoting, the person who was under threat of being kicked, would be allowed to use reasonable force under the Police And Criminal Evidence act to defend themselves.

You are absolutely correct. Of course the woman who was quite rightly challenged over her wholly unacceptable behaviour was not only threatening assault but also, because of her comments over his ethnicity, any such assault would likely be treated as racially aggravated. I am pleased though that the video allowed her to show herself in all of her vileness to the world.

My own African partner says that she has zero desire to in any way be associated with such a person who claims to in someway be her brethren....

 

[route:oxford]

If you hit ANYONE, you are in the wrong. Assault is assault, regardless of the genders of the people involved. Though, in the situation you was quoting, the person who was under threat of being kicked, would be allowed to use reasonable force under the Police And Criminal Evidence act to defend themselves.

No, not always. Usually, but not always. I retaliated before by hitting someone* and it was considred "reasonable force".

*I was presented with a hypodermic needle at work and invited to exchange cash in return for not being stabbed with it. I smacked his wrist with a sturdy stapler breaking it (wrist, not stapler).

I would have told the woman that if she didn't take her foot away from my bawsack, I'd bounce forward onto her leg and snap it.

 

[Confused147]

If you hit a woman, regardless of how much you or anyone else thinks the woman deserved it, you are automatically in the wrong, full stop, end of. That's just the way it is, the woman is right, the man has zero power and can do nothing to stop her.

Just because your a woman doesnt mean he doesnt have a right to defend himself. Today its all about silly one sided idiots that can only think the way media wants them to think. Women are always crying for equality. Seems they only want to cry when it suits.

Nobody should be hitting anybody but I believe in a world where you should have the right to defend and stand up for yourself. Resorting to violence is wrong by law but not wrong by mind.

 

[robbeech]

Women are always crying for equality. Seems they only want to cry when it suits.

I don't think this is accurate. The majority of women cry out for equality, and rightly so. The majority of men cry out for equality too. Of course, the difference is merely down to how they identify themselves so there really shouldn't be any difference. A minority of women do not cry out for equality, instead they cry out for BETTER rights than men which is of course every bit as wrong as men having more rights. The whole concept is generally blown out of proportion at every available opportunity. It matters no more than this confrontation was between a man and a woman than if it were between two men or two women, or a woman and a Salamander, or 3 grapes and a photograph of Neil Diamond's fridge. It makes no difference what race, religion, sexuality, or star sign they are either. As the rules apply to everyone then the fact that mentioning gender is even necessary truly baffles me. Did we mention whether either of them are particularly fond of Lilt? Has one of them ever studied the benefits of 98Ron Unleaded fuel in a Peugeot 206? These facts are equally as pointless to what is already a pointless story.

2 passengers had a heated discussion over a matter that was against the rules on a train. One passenger was putting their feet on a seat occupied by the other which was considered rude and is against the rules of the train operating company. The person committing the offence is believed to have made a passing remark about a difference in skin tone between them and also pointed out the level of intelligence of the other party to be below average.
Sadly this doesn't make for a brilliant news story so if this were all that were allowed to be printed they likely wouldn't bother, nobody would find out about it, everyone would get on with their day, any action that needed to be taken against any individual involved could be done so by the relevant people. Furthermore one more lump of coal on the racism and sexism fires would not be required going some way to getting rid of the ridiculous concepts.

 

[cuccir]

It's impressive that some people are able to take one incident as proof that white men are somehow the victims in society.

It is possible for both the following to be true:

1. Some women are idiots.
2.Women in general have a harder time than most men in society.

And similarly:

1. Some B&ME people are idiots.
2. B&ME people in general have a harder time than most white people in society.

 

[Polarbear]

Unfortunately, some people seem to have a large chip on their shoulder, and the woman in this incident seems to fall into that category! Whilst the bloke was probably unwise to get into a slanging match with her (I've done this myself when the red mist rises on occasion), for me, he's in the right.

Sorry to say that this sort of thing happens on an all too regular basis with us mere mortals in the day to day real world, and to my way of thinking, it's a problem that needs addressing. Quite how, I'm not sure though?

Actually, could the woman not be identified from the footage, and charged, given her comments are openly racist - if the boot were on the other foot, I expect that's exactly what would happen. Oh - and get her on the railway by-laws too!

 

[Starmill]

I have to say though that in such circumstances if any female had put her foot anywhere near my genitals while making a threat I would, should that threat have been anywhere near fulfilled, have had zero hesitation in retaliating physically.

Sounds like quite the reaction. I'm not saying this is incorrect, but legally if you overreacted there could potentially be negative consequences for you later.

If you hit a woman, regardless of how much you or anyone else thinks the woman deserved it, you are automatically in the wrong, full stop, end of. That's just the way it is, the woman is right, the man has zero power and can do nothing to stop her.

Is this really true?

 

[Bromley boy]

I hope the police will be investigating the case and duly arresting the woman for a racially aggravated public order offence.

I bet they won’t.

 

[robbeech]

Is this really true?

No, it's what a small minority think, and a further small minority complain about for sympathy. (in no way suggesting the poster of the comment falls into these categories).

 

[14xxDave]

I see the woman called Mr. Prince a "white idiot". Imagine the outcry if he had called her a "black idiot". Double standards?

I agree this is double standards. I have been on the end of someone who has been trying to use racial terms to get a better deal. Most of our wonderful people from abroad are great but some do try and use the system. No matter her colour or creed I still would have asked her to remove her foot. Manners are very cheap but worth a great deal.

D.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Personally unless I was staff on that particular train I would avoid causing trouble, keep my head down and say nothing. Unless you are staff its better to mind your own business otherwise you're just asking for trouble. Whether or not you're right if you are not a member of staff it isn't your place to speak up. I just wish the actual staff would though.

 

[Bromley boy]

It's impressive that some people are able to take one incident as proof that white men are somehow the victims in society.

Can you point to a single post that has done that?

What rubbish, not a single post has said anything of the sort.

It is possible for both the following to be true:

1. Some women are idiots.
2.Women in general have a harder time than most men in society.

And similarly:

1. Some B&ME people are idiots.
2. B&ME people in general have a harder time than most white people in society.

I don’t understand how any of this is relevant to the topic being discussed. The video shows openly racist abuse, and quite possibly an assault, of a white man on public transport.

Are we to take it from your comments that you believe racism is acceptable when it’s coming from B&ME people and/or is directed at white people?

 

[SF-02]

As soon as I saw the thread headline I wondered if that line. Never known any other line with as many selfish people doing this as SE routes to Dartford. And someone said staff intervening? There are none. Its DOO and you never see RPO so people do what they want.

A racist Nigerian is sadly not a huge surprise at all on those trains. Not the first seen on that line by a long way. Seen similar instances on about 5 occasions. Depressing.

 

[yorkie]

Personally unless I was staff on that particular train I would avoid causing trouble, keep my head down and say nothing.

Up to you but if everyone was to put up with such bad behaviour the world would not be a good place.

Unless you are staff its better to mind your own business otherwise you're just asking for trouble.

I do not agree that asking someone to take their feet off seats is "asking for trouble".

Whether or not you're right if you are not a member of staff it isn't your place to speak up. I just wish the actual staff would though.

There are no staff patrolling the passenger areas of these trains.

Who are you to say it is "not your place to speak up"?

On the contrary, it is anyone's right to speak up if they see something that is not acceptable.

I puzzled as to why you seem to display such a dislike of passengers telling people off for acting in an anti-social way contrary to Railway Byelaws. Is there a reason for this?

 

[LowLevel]

Personally unless I was staff on that particular train I would avoid causing trouble, keep my head down and say nothing. Unless you are staff its better to mind your own business otherwise you're just asking for trouble. Whether or not you're right if you are not a member of staff it isn't your place to speak up. I just wish the actual staff would though.

So what about my having a name badge and a ticket machine means I'm likely to get less grief for taking issue with someone on your behalf than you are?

A lot of societal ills are caused by simply allowing unpleasant people to get away with unpleasant things. If everyone took a bit more responsibility for policing this kind of poor behaviour at a low level we might be in a more pleasant place as a whole.

NB - I do actually intervene as I see fit and I've had physical confrontations with people on the railway network before and because I like to think I'm cool headed and sensible (helped by the odd lift of my safety valves on the internet ) I've always come out on top - both physically and in terms of my actions being vindicated by the police and my management. I should never have to fear the consequences of disabling someone who is threatening me though - I have previously retreated as per conflict management policy from an angry man under the influence of drugs who had attacked another member of staff. I was locked in a driving cab and he was doing his best to kick the door down. If he had broken through, bearing in mind his violent attempts to enter my place of safety, I would have immediately hit him with the fire extinguisher which would likely have done some rather unfortunate damage to him. Should I have to worry about that in the moment? As it happens my size 11s were enough to keep the door closed until the police arrived and arrested him after he decided to fight them as well.

 

[Bromley boy]

Up to you but if everyone was to put up with such bad behaviour the world would not be a good place.

I do not agree that asking someone to take their feet off seats is "asking for trouble".

There are no staff patrolling the passenger areas of these trains.

Who are you to say it is "not your place to speak up"?

On the contrary, it is anyone's right to speak up if they see something that is not acceptable.

I am unsure why you seem to display such a dislike of telling people off for bad behaviour. Is there a reason for this?

I completely agree. It's a sad fact that people tend to just stare into their phones or edge away in this kind of situation. If this kind of behaviour was immediately and robustly challenged by other passengers, it would soon cease. I have witnessed this on trains where someone is being obnoxious in some way and several passengers round on them.

That said, we live in a society where the perception (rightly or wrongly) is that any attempt to "speak up" might be met with violence so this happens less and less - especially on the Dartford lines.

 

[Starmill]

It's a sad fact that people tend to just stare into their phones or edge away in this kind of situation.

You might see it as sad - and I might agree that it's sad that people commit these kind of abuses. I am always happy to speak up in a polite way in favour of what I think is right. I am, as a rule, not willing to risk my own limbs to defend what is right though. If I had been on that train and said to that woman "Excuse me, very sorry but do you think you could refrain from swearing and putting your feet on the seats? Thank you." and she had lashed out and hit me, I would have had zero back-up. I would have likely been left with no recourse either, as the police may not have been able to attend and she would probably have gotten away before they could. There are no onboard staff to assist me. What's sad about that?

It's not just a perception that politely asking her to stop could be met with violence. She is demonstrably happy to use violence against anyone who asks her to stop.

 

[yorkie]

You have to treat each case on its merits, and depending on the likely reaction of other passengers, your own mood and abilities and the likelihood of the culprit reacting badly.

 

[MCSHF007]

What an obnoxious b*tch.

 

[fowler9]

We live in a complicated society. Going back 15 years I was about to walk in to the road where I live passing a bunch of schoolgirls walking the other way who were I would guess in their early teens. As I passed one of them just slapped me in the face. I could easily have knocked her out. Everyone knows you can't do that though. They all laughed and I went home utterly humiliated. To this day I kind of wish I'd knocked her teeth out but it would be me with a criminal record.

 

[al78]

Sounds like quite the reaction. I'm not saying this is incorrect, but legally if you overreacted there could potentially be negative consequences for you later.



Is this really true?

There are some (not me) that do have a strong bias regarding assault, that it is worse if a man attacks a woman because the woman is seen as smaller and physically weaker. Personally I think it shouldn't matter, assault is assault regardless of the gender. In the situation under discussion, I don't think hitting the woman would be seen as acceptable unless the woman did actually go for the man, threatening words mean little, people mouth off all the time without ever intending to act on their words. If I have a heated argument with someone and end up saying something like "I feel like smacking you in the head sometimes" I would be disappointed to be banged up in jail just for saying such a thing in the heat of ther moment. If the man here did get physical he would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was in genuine danger from the woman, and so he was acting in self defence.

This incident does highlight that if someone really wants to get in your face and be horribly offensive, you are virtually powerless to do anything about it. If you attack them physically, you are in the wrong unless they were clearly threatening to do you damage. If you do nothing, they have free reign to insult and provoke you as much as they wish, there is no comeback. Civilised people are tramlined by the rules of a civilised society, scum are not, hence it is not a level playing field. This is why, in a minority of cases, people will retailate physically, on the basis that if they get prosecuted for it, at least the perpetrator had to pay for their behaviour with some significant physical pain.

 

[Confused147]

We live in a complicated society. Going back 15 years I was about to walk in to the road where I live passing a bunch of schoolgirls walking the other way who were I would guess in their early teens. As I passed one of them just slapped me in the face. I could easily have knocked her out. Everyone knows you can't do that though. They all laughed and I went home utterly humiliated. To this day I kind of wish I'd knocked her teeth out but it would be me with a criminal record.

This is the reason men don't come forward in cases of assault because of todays lousy system. Only women can be victims of domestic violence, only a white man can be racist etc etc. The double standards are appalling. Nobody should be hitting anybody unless theres a situation where they need to defend themself. But media isn't going to be bothered about that bit are they? They'll go straight for the man hitting the woman part. Its time people stop listening to all this Bull Sh*t and accepted it for what it really is. And its true anyway that most men will only hit back in self defence.