Labour *Could* reinstate HS2 Northern legs after Government fails to sell off land

[Arkeeos]

How about we sell off all the land, and with the money raised attempt to keep the current Mainlines running. The Great Western is literally falling to bits at the moment, some serious money needs spending to keep the railway open between London and the West. Throwing money at a dead Hs2 isn't going to benefit the majority of our network which is crying out for investment.

Spending capital expenditure on maintenance does not seem wise to me.

Money spent on HS2 would not exist without HS2, so it couldn't be spent on the existing network.

 

[Horizon22]

But there is a world outside London Birmingham and Manchester. The rest of the country creeks on with its ageing network falling to bits, meanwhile we have an expensive all singing all dancing network connecting just 3 cities. Anyone who has travelled on the Western in the past couple of months realises just how desperate things are getting. The money needs to come from somewhere to keep it all going, and this goes for other parts of the UK too.

Sure but think about how many services connect into those major cities and the wider connectivity options. Of course the GWML needs something to be done in the immediate future, but there’s a big difference between capital projects & “business as usual”. Otherwise we’d never build anything - although sadly we seem to be getting closer to this every year in the UK.

 

[najaB]

But my point is, we have to choose between a decent nationwide rail network, or get HS2 whilst the rest is allowed to slowly rot and decay.

The money to pay for HS2 doesn't come from the same pot as operating and maintaining the current network.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Apparently some HS2 money was to be diverted to be spent on road potholes , so I see no reason why the money couldn't be diverted into making the classic network better.

Don’t be another person to buy into that BS. The government has, and continues to, blatantly lie about the ‘diverted funding’. It’s a smokescreen being laid for the gullible and people are wilfully swallowing it.

 

[may032]

he said that it is now 'impossible' to build HS2 as originally conceived.

I may be clutching at straws here, but the focus does seem to be on the original / full network, rather than 2a + NPR which would surely be the most conceivable future additions. Clutched straws aside, it’s really devastating news.

Off-topic but Labour don’t really give you much to be excited about, although they can’t be any worse than the incumbents.

 

[Arkeeos]

Off-topic but Labour don’t really give you much to be excited about, although they can’t be any worse than the incumbents.

They have announced basically nothing in regards to rail, aside from bleating nationalisation like sheep.

 

[Rail Quest]

I may be clutching at straws here, but the focus does seem to be on the original / full network, rather than 2a + NPR which would surely be the most conceivable future additions. Clutched straws aside, it’s really devastating news.

I doubt that matters tbf. If Labour really do care more about their popularity than actually doing good for the nation (which I view as highly likely for all political parties atm ), then Labour would view reigniting phase 2a as something that, in the eyes of the Tories, media and thus, general public would simply be reinstating the full line, even if they don't.

That's of course all assuming that Kier/shadow cabinet actually knows the difference between the full HS2 project and what it's phases actually are haha

 

[may032]

I doubt that matters tbf. If Labour really do care more about their popularity than actually doing good for the nation (which I view as highly likely for all political parties atm ), then Labour would view reigniting phase 2a as something that, in the eyes of the Tories, media and thus, general public would simply be reinstating the full line, even if they don't.

That's of course all assuming that Kier/shadow cabinet actually knows the difference between the full HS2 project and what it's phases actually are haha

True, I can imagine the headlines now. Every comment and decision is just so cautious with Starmer, I really hope they haven’t completely ruled out any further expansion behind the scenes.

 

[stuu]

Sounds to me like Starmer is sensibly avoiding giving any attack lines for the Tories and their media chums. Basic politics, nothing to see here

 

[The Planner]

Yet I reckon if for example Old oak common was sold off for high rise flats a decent amount of money could be raised. Any pockets of land in the south east would surely be worth a fortune. Trouble is I suppose they have cancelled the wrong bit of HS2, the London to Birmingham bit is the least needed, yet this is the bit being forced through.

The reason for all the current development around OOC is because of HS2. Take that away and the property speculators will walk away.

 

[Irascible]

Sounds to me like Starmer is sensibly avoiding giving any attack lines for the Tories and their media chums. Basic politics, nothing to see here

Well, he's a lawyer & doesn't tend to make statements without a case behind. Which is an odd ( and quite dubious ) stance for a politician who's meant to be inspirational... but that's a little tangential.

As for the line - we will have to operate the bit that's being built already regardless, so wouldn't it make more sense to invest in something that's going to have a better ROI & at least build the recently cancelled bit?

 

[JonathanH]

The premise of this thread is that spending on the railway is some sort of priority for a future government. It simply isn't. There are so many places where money could be spent, and no new source of money.

A future government is likely to have to make difficult decisions on its priorities, and they won't be able to do everything people want, but that is certainly no reason to allow the current government to continue.

 

[Sorcerer]

Sounds to me like Starmer is sensibly avoiding giving any attack lines for the Tories and their media chums. Basic politics, nothing to see here

If the Tories and their media chums want to attack Keir Starmer, they will find something to attack, or failing that will just start lying like they did with Ed Miliband in 2015 saying Labour would go into a coalition with the SNP even after he ruled it out. They might just as well attack him for being disingenuous and spineless, and to be honest, I would be inclined to agree. A man whose scared to advocate sensible policies and sell them to the public in case the nasty men on the television or mean bullies printing the newspapers say bad things about him is not someone I'd want near the office of Prime Minister.

Labour have a genuine opportunity to sell HS2 to the public as an investment to the north and investment in the country's infrastructure and actually sell the line for what it is instead of simply faster journeys to London, but instead he's squandered it and basically gave Sunak the green light to shut it all down because he won't even try to do anything about it and that all his talk of it being a bad decision was just words of protest. In that respect, he's not too unlike his predecessor, but of course the difference is that Jeremy Corbyn, unpopular and irrational some of his ideas might've been, actually stood for something other than not being the Tories.

 

[Tezza1978]

Sounds to me like Starmer is sensibly avoiding giving any attack lines for the Tories and their media chums. Basic politics, nothing to see here

Precisely. Its sensible politics given the controversy.

2a and NPR will be rolled into New Northern Railways Powerhouse Project (NNRB) and no one will bat an eyelid.....look at what was said re the metro mayors and the private sector and you can read between the lines...

The HS2 brand is tainted and its right that the remainder is shunted into a new brand.

 

[Trainbike46]

Despite expecting this sort of thing from Starmer, I am still strangely annoyed at this decision. As a left-leaning voter with an interest in railways and a desire to see Britain's network be better, Labour are honestly not selling themselves to me as a genuine option for the next election, and that is a real shame.

My feelings exactly, though I would broaden it that for almost every issue where Starmer has made statements on what Labour would do, the statements that make me not want to vote for them. This HS2 statement is just another one in a long line, though I guess it is good they're actually saying what they'll do so voters can make an informed decision.

Not that relevant for me anyway, because Starmer's labour crossed some of my red lines quite a while ago, and they don't contest my constituency anyway, so I wouldn't be voting for them in any case, but it does sadden me that our major left-ish party is putting me off so much.

But my point is, we have to choose between a decent nationwide rail network, or get HS2 whilst the rest is allowed to slowly rot and decay. There isn't the money to carry on the way we are going. I genuinely fear we are sleep walking towards an horrific accident if money isn't spent soon. Apparently some HS2 money was to be diverted to be spent on road potholes , so I see no reason why the money couldn't be diverted into making the classic network better.

As many people have explained on here before that isn't how this works.

The road pothole thing was a complete and utter lie (so I guess not unexpected from politicians!)

 

[Bald Rick]

Yet I reckon if for example Old oak common was sold off for high rise flats a decent amount of money could be raised. Any pockets of land in the south east would surely be worth a fortune. Trouble is I suppose they have cancelled the wrong bit of HS2, the London to Birmingham bit is the least needed, yet this is the bit being forced through.

I’m afraid that shows a misunderstanding of economics.

Firstly London to the West Midlands is the section that is most needed from a transport and economic persoective.

Secondly, to make OOC fit to be sold for property development would cost hundreds of millions. The value of it as high density development would be perhaps a billion, but only if it was well connected to the public transport network. Which by cancelling HS2, it wouldnt.

Thirdly, the socio economic business case for HS2 is, right now, very high, and will only ge5 better, simply because the cost side of the BCR is much reduced and continues to get smaller.

 

[Arkeeos]

Precisely. Its sensible politics given the controversy.

2a and NPR will be rolled into New Northern Railways Powerhouse Project (NNRB) and no one will bat an eyelid.....look at what was said re the metro mayors and the private sector and you can read between the lines...

The HS2 brand is tainted and its right that the remainder is shunted into a new brand.

I really hope this is what happens, the public is stupid anyway and they can brand it as a huge expansion of northern powerhouse rail

 

[Krokodil]

Apparently some HS2 money was to be diverted to be spent on road potholes

In London, apparently Network North extends that far (Tavistock might not be "North" but at least it's in an area worthy of some development funding). As others have said, the use of CAPEX for maintenance is a bit of an iffy move.

so I see no reason why the money couldn't be diverted into making the classic network better.

Completion of the wiring to Bristol was listed on the back of the fag packet that the government published as a suggestion. The cheek of them suggesting it as new investment rather than reinstatement of projects they'd previously pulled.

Anyway, the more important question is whether the work you have in mind happens to involve any marginal constituencies (though with the boundaries being redrawn there's some guesswork involved to work out which ones they will be next time). If it doesn't involve a marginal then they won't be interested. Why do you think that Oswestry was chosen for reopening when they recently lost the local seat in a by-election? Why do you think that the Hope Valley Line was chosen for wiring when NR thought that the Calder Valley has a better case? Quite a few marginals along the North Wales Coast too, not to mention the political issues of the Barnet Funding they'd otherwise have to give out.

Incidentally, there were next to no marginal constituencies in the South West in 2019 so don't get your hopes up.

 

[Energy]

Per the Manchester Evening News, there is no chance of an incoming Labour government reversing the recent decision to cancel the line to Manchester.

Labour leader Keir Starmer says he's ruled out bringing HS2 to the North

The leader of the opposition said it would be 'impossible'

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

"The government has blown the budget, the contracts are being cancelled, the land may or may not be sold and I think that it's not fair for me to commit to something that I don't think is going to happen."

"Yes. It's [HS2 to Manchester] not going to happen."

Starmer's never been a fan of HS2, unsurprising given that the Euston construction has affected his constituency. But his comments seem to reflect him rather than the party's transport policy in their upcoming manifesto. The shadow transport minister, Louise Haigh, has always been more pro full HS2 and full NPR.

I'm not sure what he means by contracts being canceled, as far as I am aware future contracts on 2a haven't been awarded and no work on phase 1 has been cancelled.

Worth noting that he's only ruled out HS2 to Manchester, not Crewe. His later commitments to NPR are hazy and lack detail about what NPR they intend to build (not anything different then) but he has committed to building it, suggesting that he isn't aware that NPR and HS2 would have shared infrastructure or that it won't be a new line.

Sir Keir said confirmed that Labour is committed to building Northern Powerhouse Rail, but said the details of what this east-to-west railway project will involve are yet to be decided.

NPR might be a vote winner but its business case has never been as good as HS2s.

The value of it as high density development would be perhaps a billion, but only if it was well connected to the public transport network. Which by cancelling HS2, it wouldnt.

Exactly, OOC is trying to replicate the success of Stratford on HS1. With no station, it has lost its value.

Completion of the wiring to Bristol was listed on the back of the fag packet that the government published as a suggestion. The cheek of them suggesting it as new investment rather than reinstatement of projects they'd previously pulled.

The Network North commitments have gone quiet, almost like the money never existed. Instead, the media has realised that the DfT had no involvement with Network North and was Rishi's team... like it wasn't obvious...

 

[Krokodil]

I'm not sure what he means

Don't worry, I don't think that he knows either.

The Network North commitments have gone quiet, almost like the money never existed. Instead, the media has realised that the DfT had no involvement with Network North and was Rishi's team... like it wasn't obvious...

With the exception of the pothole-filling. The government were keen to promote the redirection of £235m towards London's roads. Until someone realised what that looked like politically.

 

[Energy]

With the exception of the pothole-filling. The government were keen to promote the redirection of £235m towards London's roads. Until someone realised what that looked like politically.

They were happy enough to tweet it and get ridiculed.

You would have thought that they'd have learned from the first round of ridicule when Network North was announced with loads not up north.

 

[stuu]

Precisely. Its sensible politics given the controversy.

2a and NPR will be rolled into New Northern Railways Powerhouse Project (NNRB) and no one will bat an eyelid.....look at what was said re the metro mayors and the private sector and you can read between the lines...

The HS2 brand is tainted and its right that the remainder is shunted into a new brand.

Yes, that's pretty much what I expect to happen. The Hs2 name will be dropped after phase 1 opens, and phase 2a/2b will both reappear with new names

 

[class26]

Precisely. Its sensible politics given the controversy.

2a and NPR will be rolled into New Northern Railways Powerhouse Project (NNRB) and no one will bat an eyelid.....look at what was said re the metro mayors and the private sector and you can read between the lines...

The HS2 brand is tainted and its right that the remainder is shunted into a new brand.

but much more difficult if the land is sold off

 

[tspaul26]

but much more difficult if the land is sold off

Land sales will take years: it can’t just be ‘put on the market’.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The really annoying thing about this is that we have a really good Shadow Transport Secretary (which is rare) but the upper Party Leadership don't let her work her magic on not only Britain's Railways but Britain's Public Transport system.

 

[Meerkat]

Labour have a genuine opportunity to sell HS2 to the public as an investment to the north and investment in the country's infrastructure

That only works if the public believe it is an ‘investment’ rather than committing to throwing money into an undetermined but ever increasing black hole.

PS from the quote Starmer has only really said he wont commit to hitting restart on HS2 as previously planned, and only a fool would do that with the cost totally up in the air.
He hasn’t said he wouldn’t approve a version of it.

 

[nr758123]

Land sales will take years: it can’t just be ‘put on the market’.

I'm going to predict that HS2 will own more land by the election date than they did when the cancellation of 2A was announced.

 

[camflyer]

I really hope this is what happens, the public is stupid anyway and they can brand it as a huge expansion of northern powerhouse rail

Yes, hopefully that is the long term plan. Amazing what you can do with a bit of political spin and branding

HS2 Brum-Manchester = Bad Tory Plan
NPR Brum-Manchester = Good Labour Plan

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, hopefully that is the long term plan. Amazing what you can do with a bit of political spin and branding

HS2 Brum-Manchester = Bad Tory Plan
NPR Brum-Manchester = Good Labour Plan

I very much doubt this will be what happens.

There will be no appetite for a project that is going to cost many billions a year for years.

Given how the costs of the current scheme keep increasing, Starmer (who never supported high speed rail in the first place), is not going to go near anything resembling any part of HS2 with a barge pole.

 

[Trainbike46]

Yes, hopefully that is the long term plan. Amazing what you can do with a bit of political spin and branding

HS2 Brum-Manchester = Bad Tory Plan
NPR Brum-Manchester = Good Labour Plan

While I am really hoping that will happen, I fear it may be unduly optimistic, at least until phase 1 is up and running