Leeds Trams. Again.

[WestRiding]

Leeds is to get its own tram as consolation for the scrapped HS2

Leeds will get its own tram network as consolation for the HS2 link to the city being scrapped, under plans being considered by Ministers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Leeds is to get its own tram network as consolation for the scrapped HS2 link to the city

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Leeds is to get its own tram as consolation for the scrapped HS2

Leeds will get its own tram network as consolation for the HS2 link to the city being scrapped, under plans being considered by Ministers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Judging by the last daily mail article i saw on the logo which was not the actual logo of GBR i would take this with a pinch of salt

 

[Iskra]

I think many people would welcome this in West Yorkshire …as long as the tram network actually gets built. Leeds city centre is a traffic nightmare, which is not helped by hundreds of buses.

It also saves the demolition of buildings and land that the new line would have gone through.

Leeds-London is already pretty fast.

Although any spare money should also go on more capacity/more appropriate rolling stock between Leeds and Birmingham in my opinion rather than just trams in Leeds.

 

[317 forever]

I think Leeds is the largest city in Europe without a tram or light rail system.

Given that local travel by tram and longer distance travel by train are so different, a tram in lieu of HS2 just seems a sop or a box-ticking exercise.

 

[bluenoxid]

How long can we drag it out until the business case/public inquiry knocks it back?

I’m sure the various north Leeds opposition groups are already raising their hackles/money to fight it.

The challenge for Leeds is that whatever is built will not be as transformative as people think. Most corridors into Leeds won’t benefit even if a three line network is built. The other challenge is that if money is allocated to West Yorkshire, there are four other councils who will want their chunk of the funding allocation.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A tram network for Leeds is much needed, but there are a few large caveats...
Firstly, I'd be very much opposed to converting any existing heavy-rail routes to tram (or tram-train, which seems to be the current darling of transport planners) because none of the currently open routes surrounding Leeds are really suitable for conversion: the vast majority also carry longer-distance traffic or freight. Secondly I'd be wary of things being done on the cheap, as happened in Sheffield resulting in renewals having to be brought forward.
Thirdly (and for now finally) the other councils in West Yorkshire will want their slice of the pie- which could result in longer-than-ideal routes into Bradford, Wakefield and Dewsbury which won't really compete with the private car... and will also create conflicts with the big bus groups, whom we know are not averse to making legal challenges on the grounds of unfair competition.

On that last point, until we sort out the regulatory side of things, any state-funded improvements will be hamstrung by our bizarre competition law which pitches different modes against each other rather than trying to integrate public transport as a whole.

 

[Glenn1969]

A tram network for Leeds is much needed, but there are a few large caveats...
Firstly, I'd be very much opposed to converting any existing heavy-rail routes to tram (or tram-train, which seems to be the current darling of transport planners) because none of the currently open routes surrounding Leeds are really suitable for conversion: the vast majority also carry longer-distance traffic or freight. Secondly I'd be wary of things being done on the cheap, as happened in Sheffield resulting in renewals having to be brought forward.
Thirdly (and for now finally) the other councils in West Yorkshire will want their slice of the pie- which could result in longer-than-ideal routes into Bradford, Wakefield and Dewsbury which won't really compete with the private car... and will also create conflicts with the big bus groups, whom we know are not averse to making legal challenges on the grounds of unfair competition.

On that last point, until we sort out the regulatory side of things, any state-funded improvements will be hamstrung by our bizarre competition law which pitches different modes against each other rather than trying to integrate public transport as a whole.

Is it a Leeds tram? Or is it funding for the WYCA Mass Transit strategy for all 5 districts that featured in the 2040 strategy documents and from which the whole county would benefit

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is it a Leeds tram? Or is it funding for the WYCA Mass Transit strategy for all 5 districts that featured in the 2040 strategy documents and from which the whole county would benefit

That's what will hopefully become clearer in time... but nobody is going to want to take a tram all the way from Todmorden to Wetherby, so there needs to be a bit of realism when it comes to planning. The longer distance trips within the county are best served by heavy rail, and hopefully there won't be too much parochialism from the likes of Kirklees and Calderdale, that will lead to an ineffective system that's neither use nor ornament.
There's also too much importance placed on a fully segregated right-of-way when it comes to trams. Signal priorities can achieve much of the benefit for a fraction of the costs, with only the busiest and most complex road junctions actually requiring full segregation.

 

[philthetube]

I think Leeds is the largest city in Europe without a tram or light rail system.

Given that local travel by tram and longer distance travel by train are so different, a tram in lieu of HS2 just seems a sop or a box-ticking exercise.

Bristol?

 

[Bayum]

That's what will hopefully become clearer in time... but nobody is going to want to take a tram all the way from Todmorden to Wetherby

I mean, speak for yourself…

 

[_toommm_]

As long as at least some of it is built on dedicated track, instead of on-street running.

I hate sitting on a bus on Otley Road at peak times, never mind having to add a tram into the mix.

 

[The Ham]

In reality there's a need for both HS2 and local public transport improvements, doing one without the other is always going to lead to people staying reliant on their cars.

I won't use HS2 because I need my car for getting to/from work vs I won't use buses/trams because I need my car to visit family and (say) XC are always overcrowded.

It's why in the last 15 years as we've seen local transport cuts we've seen the number of private cars grow. Even converting cars to EV's isn't for to cut out emissions enough, we need more people using non car modes of travel more often (please note in not saying that no one should have a car, rather there's far too many 2+ car households which could, with better public transport, reduce the need for such cars and in turn would see fewer car based trips).

 

[PeterC]

In reality there's a need for both HS2 and local public transport improvements, doing one without the other is always going to lead to people staying reliant on their cars.

I won't use HS2 because I need my car for getting to/from work vs I won't use buses/trams because I need my car to visit family and (say) XC are always overcrowded.

It's why in the last 15 years as we've seen local transport cuts we've seen the number of private cars grow. Even converting cars to EV's isn't for to cut out emissions enough, we need more people using non car modes of travel more often (please note in not saying that no one should have a car, rather there's far too many 2+ car households which could, with better public transport, reduce the need for such cars and in turn would see fewer car based trips).

Without good local transport for the first and last 10 miles or so there is little benefit in a fast trunk haul, especially when the local trips need to be loaded with recovery time as sensibly priced tickets are for a specific departure.

To visit my daughter in W Yorks the local PT connections at each end take longer than the inter city haul up the ECML from King's Cross. As much as I hate the M1 driving is a no brainer

 

[D365]

I really don’t see why high speed rail and a ”Leeds Supertram” should ever have been mutually exclusive.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is this a genuine revival of local interest or just Westminster saying they need a sop and wernt they talking about a tram system a few years ago, we could fund that?

 

[Ken H]

Leeds is difficult. There is little room for reserved tracks, except perhaps York Road. I dont think the median strip on Scott Hall Road is wide enough, and once the 7 turns off at Potternewton Ln, there isnt that much traffic. Not much dead railway to convert and the lines out of Leeds dont really serve leeds suburbs. And the existing stopping trains go way beyond the Leeds boundary to Skipton, York, Harrogate
The old Leeds trams were mostly on street running but the roads are far more busy today. And I cant see trams penetrating the big estates like Gipton/Seacroft.
Why not trolleybuses? Far cheaper, less disruption and can be carbon neutral. They can regenerate, and you could always bung a battery in for some bits that dont warrant wiring. And I am sure with modern materials you can make the overhead less intrusive.

 

[The Ham]

I really don’t see why high speed rail and a ”Leeds Supertram” should ever have been mutually exclusive.

Nor do I, if anything the two things would help to a long way to encouraging a reduction in car use (how much they each reduce it would be another matter, but they would at least encourage people to think again about car ownership).

HS2 is never going to help those who need long distance travel but also need local travel, likewise trams/buses/cycle lanes are never going to help those who need local local travel but also need long distance travel.

Is this a genuine revival of local interest or just Westminster saying they need a sop and wernt they talking about a tram system a few years ago, we could fund that?

My thinking would be the latter.

 

[Starmill]

HS2 enables a much more intensive commuter service Sheffield / Doncaster - Wakefield - Leeds than currently can operate by removing from this infrastructure the trips London to Leeds, Birmingham to Newcastle etc etc. It also enables a small increase in provision on the Micklefield - Leeds corridor by removing from it Leeds - Newcastle etc. It's not clear if the latter will be removed anyway however if Leeds HS2 to Church Fenton is constructed in a modified form for NPR.

It's unclear that these genuinely link to any actual tramway or light rail proposals.

Has any design refinement even been done on the last section Sharston Common - Woodlesford - Leeds HS2 / Church Fenton? I don't think it has has it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why not trolleybuses? Far cheaper, less disruption and can be carbon neutral. They can regenerate, and you could always bung a battery in for some bits that dont warrant wiring.

The wiring is more complex and unsightly, and you still have the rubber particulates. I also wouldn't be surprised if the vehicles themselves are more expensive than trams due to being less common, and possibly would need replacing sooner.

 

[JKF]

Leeds is difficult. There is little room for reserved tracks, except perhaps York Road. I dont think the median strip on Scott Hall Road is wide enough, and once the 7 turns off at Potternewton Ln, there isnt that much traffic. Not much dead railway to convert and the lines out of Leeds dont really serve leeds suburbs. And the existing stopping trains go way beyond the Leeds boundary to Skipton, York, Harrogate

There is some ‘dead railway’ space alongside the Aire Valley and New Pursey lines where they were once four-tracked, although the former might be reinstated as far as the junction for the Ilkley line, and there is no space once you get close to the city centre.

 

[xotGD]

So is this a proposed tram system to replace the scrapped proposed trolley bus system that replaced the scrapped proposed tram system?

On trolley buses, is there any point with battery and hydrogen fuel cell options offering zero emission alternatives?

 

[Roast Veg]

So is this a proposed tram system to replace the scrapped proposed trolley bus system that replaced the scrapped proposed tram system?

On trolley buses, is there any point with battery and hydrogen fuel cell options offering zero emission alternatives?

Only if the wires are already there for trams. Otherwise forget it.

 

[Glenn1969]

Only if the wires are already there for trams. Otherwise forget it.

WY is planning a mass transit system in its 2040 strategy document that would benefit the whole county and improve connections between towns and cities that are currently hard by rail. They just haven't decided which form of transit they are going to use yet. It has occurred to me more than once recently that this scheme could be what is referred to here

 

[snowball]

Why not trolleybuses? Far cheaper, less disruption and can be carbon neutral. They can regenerate, and you could always bung a battery in for some bits that dont warrant wiring. And I am sure with modern materials you can make the overhead less intrusive.

Apart from any other reasons, the last trolleybus proposal was bitterly opposed by some and failed at the public inquiry stage. However I think the shortage of suitable off-road routes would also be a problem for a revived tram system.

 

[MontyP]

Bristol?

Leeds is much bigger than Bristol in its own right, and is also the centre of a major conurbation unlike Bristol.

A lot of the problem in Leeds seems to be the desire/insistence that any mass transit system is designed for the whole of W Yorks, not just for the City of Leeds. Did Manchester have the same problem when the Metrolink was initially constructed? Did people in Bury / Altrincham moan about losing their train service or say that the distance from Bury to Altrincham was too far to travel on a tram? Did the councils in Stockport, Bolton and Wigan try to block it because they felt they weren't getting their fair share of the transport spend?

 

[javelin]

Did people in Bury / Altrincham moan about losing their train service or say that the distance from Bury to Altrincham was too far to travel on a tram?

Yep

Did the councils in Stockport, Bolton and Wigan try to block it because they felt they weren't getting their fair share of the transport spend?

Block? No, but there is the expectation of funding for other projects in their area in return for support for extensions elsewhere. It helps that these boroughs are served by decent-ish heavy-rail connections.

 

[WatcherZero]

Leeds is much bigger than Bristol in its own right, and is also the centre of a major conurbation unlike Bristol.

A lot of the problem in Leeds seems to be the desire/insistence that any mass transit system is designed for the whole of W Yorks, not just for the City of Leeds. Did Manchester have the same problem when the Metrolink was initially constructed? Did people in Bury / Altrincham moan about losing their train service or say that the distance from Bury to Altrincham was too far to travel on a tram? Did the councils in Stockport, Bolton and Wigan try to block it because they felt they weren't getting their fair share of the transport spend?

Yes, same complaint was made by residents for Oldham and Rochdale lines too, but many more more people were using them than used heavy rail.

I dont think there was much fuss when Bury/Altrincham was originally constructed as they were existing lines that would have closed otherwise due to cost of electrification conversion/renewal.
I do remember Phase 3 however and the Leigh guided busway was Wigan's compensation while the Lib Dems in Stockport council decided they didnt want anything to do with a 'labour' tram scheme and would rather have investment in buses instead. Bolton was considered to indirectly benefit already from the proximity of Metrolink despite not being directly served and didnt feel it needed any appeasement.

 

[Roast Veg]

WY is planning a mass transit system in its 2040 strategy document that would benefit the whole county and improve connections between towns and cities that are currently hard by rail. They just haven't decided which form of transit they are going to use yet. It has occurred to me more than once recently that this scheme could be what is referred to here

A map showing "opportunities" is available here. The Dewsbury, Thorpe (via York Road?), and Airport lines look to be the most thought out.

 

[Bayum]

My concern with Leeds (as someone unfortunate enough to life there) is that this is going to be more money investigating whether a tram is sensible and that’s it. No actual funding of an improved/created transit system, just ‘check and see’ and pay lip service. We gave you money, it wasn’t appropriate and we’ve done our bit.

 

[Roast Veg]

My concern with Leeds (as someone unfortunate enough to life there) is that this is going to be more money investigating whether a tram is sensible and that’s it. No actual funding of an improved/created transit system, just ‘check and see’ and pay lip service. We gave you money, it wasn’t appropriate and we’ve done our bit.

The money allocated in the first instance will definitely go on conslutancy - hopefully into the WYCA plans. They already have their eyes on more funds, and I don't think they'd be precluded from that funding as well. Best case scenario one or two of the "opportunities" come out with a positive BCR before the next pot of funding and it can get the goahead. Ambitious!