Lewisham / Tanners Hill fly down

[Barn]

Recently whenever I've been on a service from Charing Cross to Lewisham, the train hasn't used Tanners Hill fly down but instead has switched to the Cannon Street lines and passed non-stop through New Cross and St John's. Does anybody know why?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Points have been plain lined that go to the down tanners hill due to a fault. Its supposed to be rectified this weekend I think.

 

[Bayum]

Not necessarily related - after watching YouTube videos, do trains using Tanners Hill usually not call at St Johns? Is there a pattern?

 

[ComUtoR]

Not necessarily related - after watching YouTube videos, do trains using Tanners Hill usually not call at St Johns? Is there a pattern?

Cannon Street Services will go via St Johns and New Cross.

Operationally; It's not possible to go via Tanners Hill and St Johns.

 

[Bayum]

Cannon Street Services will go via St Johns and New Cross.

Operationally; It's not possible to go via Tanners Hill and St Johns.

So all non-Cannon St services will use Tanner Hill?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

So all non-Cannon St services will use Tanner Hill?

Unless the set of points that allows them to use Tanners Hill is out of use then yes.

Oh apart from Thameslink services that are diverting via Bexleyheath when the North Kent Lines is shut. They run down the slows.

 

[Bayum]

Fab., thank you. It looks like quite a steep hill. It’s somewhere I want to travel to when I’m next in London just so I can say I’ve travelled up/down it!

 

[ComUtoR]

Only when stopping at Lewisham.

Charing Cross Mainliners and Metro not calling at Lewisham pass between St Johns and Tamers Hill.

Lewisham to Victoria goes up and then swings left up the Brockley Bank to Nunhead

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Only when stopping at Lewisham.

Charing Cross Mainliners and Metro not calling at Lewisham pass between St Johns and Tamers Hill.

Lewisham to Victoria goes up and then swings left up the Brockley Bank to Nunhead

Ah yes.

Was assuming they meant services going to Lewisham only.

You do very occasionally get services not stopping at Lewisham that are running towards Hither Green routed via Tanners Hill and Lewisham anyway if there are engineering works or something else is going on.

 

[Bayum]

Only when stopping at Lewisham.

Charing Cross Mainliners and Metro not calling at Lewisham pass between St Johns and Tamers Hill.

Lewisham to Victoria goes up and then swings left up the Brockley Bank to Nunhead

Is that the line of track that is passed over at the summit of Tanner Hill?

 

[ComUtoR]

Is that the line of track that is passed over at the summit of Tanner Hill?

Yellow - Victoria (via Nunhead)
Purple - Charing Cross Mainline (Lewisham avoiding)
Green - Cannon Street
Orange - Charing Cross Metro

You can see why Lewisham Junction is so trublesome. Must be a total nightmare for PWay

 

[brad465]

View attachment 114919

Yellow - Victoria (via Nunhead)
Purple - Charing Cross Mainline (Lewisham avoiding)
Green - Cannon Street
Orange - Charing Cross Metro

You can see why Lewisham Junction is so trublesome. Must be a total nightmare for PWay

I'm guessing almost every junction there is bespoke; I definitely recall Courthill Loop Jn South being a timely repair after a freight train derailed on it sometime in the last decade.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Is that the line of track that is passed over at the summit of Tanner Hill?

The second half of this fairly short YouTube video . . .

. . . shows the route between Lewisham and Nunhead, and also shows that it's a major freight artery as well as a busy passenger line.

 

[John Webb]

The Fast Lines island platform at St John's station was removed when the Tanner's Hill line was set up so that the Up fast line in particular could be slewed over to make more room for the embankment, built on the former goods yard site. But I recollect it was originally a single bi-directional line when first built and the video posted above shows it to now be two lines; when was that done?

 

[swt_passenger]

The Fast Lines island platform at St John's station was removed when the Tanner's Hill line was set up so that the Up fast line in particular could be slewed over to make more room for the embankment, built on the former goods yard site. But I recollect it was originally a single bi-directional line when first built and the video posted above shows it to now be two lines; when was that done?

Doubling was done as an early pre-requisite phase of the overall Thameslink alterations at London Bridge. I think in the early 2010s, so about the same time as Borough Viaduct was being built. IIRC at the time it was being built it was unclear to some people why it was needed. It’s far easier to explain now we know that post Thameslink Southeastern services needed to be sorted out well in advance into Cannon St or Charing Cross routes.

London Reconnections did a couple of articles about the history and reasons for the doubling, here:
Part 1 includes this explanation of the purpose:
“Double tracking of the Tanners Hill fly down is required due to the removal of the Spa Road Junction, and to provide double junctions at both Tanners Hill Junction and Lewisham Vale Junctions with the main lines.
This is not really a complete answer, but it implies that the enhanced flydown is necessary because the new dedicated Thameslink tracks will make it impossible to cross the main line on the flat between London Bridge (Charing Cross platforms) and Lewisham.”

Tanners Hill Flydown - Part 1 - London Reconnections

The leading source for independent news and analysis about transport in London and beyond. Award-winning coverage of transport infrastructure and politics alongside stories about the history of the Capital's transport networks.

www.londonreconnections.com

Part 2 deals with the construction period:

Tanners Hill Flydown - Part 2 - London Reconnections

The leading source for independent news and analysis about transport in London and beyond. Award-winning coverage of transport infrastructure and politics alongside stories about the history of the Capital's transport networks.

www.londonreconnections.com

 

[John Webb]

Doubling was done as an early pre-requisite phase of the overall Thameslink alterations I think in the mid to late 2000s. IIRC at the time it was being built it was unclear to some people why it was needed. It’s far easier to explain now we know that post Thameslink Southeastern services needed to be sorted out well in advance into Cannon St or Charing Cross routes.

Many thanks. I was at a secondary school whose playground backed onto the line several hundred yards from St John's station towards New Cross from 1957-1960. But moved away from SE London in 1977, so have not been so aware of changes in the area.

 

[swt_passenger]

Many thanks. I was at a secondary school whose playground backed onto the line several hundred yards from St John's station towards New Cross from 1957-1960. But moved away from SE London in 1977, so have not been so aware of changes in the area.

Please note I’ve since researched the exact dates and edited, it was a little later than I thought.

 

[Geoff_K]

London Reconnections did a couple of articles about the history and reasons for the doubling.

Thanks for the links, very interesting reading, but such a shame that the images in the first article are not showing, would be fascinating to see how things looked then. Can they be found online anywhere else?

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks for the links, very interesting reading, but such a shame that the images in the first article are not showing, would be fascinating to see how things looked then. Can they be found online anywhere else?

Yes that’s a limitation, I think at some stage LR changed servers and a lot of links in older articles subsequently failed. Not sure if the articles would perhaps be on the internet archive?

 

[Geoff_K]

Found some relative stuff online - nice article on St Johns Station, with maps and images.

St Johns

A history of St Johns station, between Lewisham and New Cross

www.kentrail.org.uk

Found these images too. The first is from 1971 & I guess more or less taken from where the top of the flydown would be. Third one shows the former sidings - now the location of the flydown. The last two are both looking towards Lewisham, don't know the dates though.

 

[Mikey C]

View attachment 114919

Yellow - Victoria (via Nunhead)
Purple - Charing Cross Mainline (Lewisham avoiding)
Green - Cannon Street
Orange - Charing Cross Metro

You can see why Lewisham Junction is so trublesome. Must be a total nightmare for PWay

The whole layout of the area, including Lewisham station itself is a mess. In an ideal world we'd bulldoze a square mile of that whole area and spend a year rebuilding it

 

[John Webb]

Found some relative stuff online - nice article on St Johns Station, with maps and images.

St Johns

A history of St Johns station, between Lewisham and New Cross

www.kentrail.org.uk

Found these images too. The first is from 1971 & I guess more or less taken from where the top of the flydown would be. Third one shows the former sidings - now the location of the flydown. The last two are both looking towards Lewisham, don't know the dates though.

Thanks for the photos and link; most interesting. Even got a glimpse or two of my old school!