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LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

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dave59

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I Must buy MR. I imagine sectional running times 'could' be dramatically reduced but limited when there is legacy traction still operating. Although I much prefer a 225 set to ride on, they are very slow to accelerate. The Leeds and York stoppers are least suited to them but appreciate the change is due to Leeds-based maintenance.
 
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Bald Rick

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I imagine sectional running times 'could' be dramatically reduced but limited when there is legacy traction still operating.

Don’t forget that reducing SRTs means that train arrive at critical junctions earlier, which means that everything else through that Junction needs retiming. Think Kings Cross, Welwyn viaduct, Huntingdon - Woodwalton, Doncaster, York, Leeds West end, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Etc Etc. Massive exercise.
 

dave59

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Yes appreciate that but but it was a massive exercise also to procure new rolling stock with modern performance levels. Not as radical perhaps as the WCML Class 390 introduction but a significant change from the old guard LHCS. It would seem to be a waste if there is not a major timetable revision to match with shorter timings, not just increased robustness and reliability.
 

Ianno87

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Yes appreciate that but but it was a massive exercise also to procure new rolling stock with modern performance levels. Not as radical perhaps as the WCML Class 390 introduction but a significant change from the old guard LHCS. It would seem to be a waste if there is not a major timetable revision to match with shorter timings, not just increased robustness and reliability.

That's the intent of the 2022 timetable change - proper recast to take full advantage of 801/802 performance.
 

swt_passenger

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That's the intent of the 2022 timetable change - proper recast to take full advantage of 801/802 performance.
It seems to me it makes a lot of sense to include the benefits of Kings Cross, Werrington, and the power supply upgrades at the same time, and as we know two of them won’t actually be completed in the near future.
 

59CosG95

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It seems to me it makes a lot of sense to include the benefits of Kings Cross, Werrington, and the power supply upgrades at the same time, and as we know two of them won’t actually be completed in the near future.
And what would those two be? The PSUs are my guess, although the bare bones parts of PSU1 (Wood Green - Bawtry) necessary to support the 80x fleet south of Doncaster have already been completed, along with Potteric Carr SFC & FS (tacked on to the IEP scope of works rather than PSU1's). PSU2, meanwhile, has a way to go yet AIUI.
 

swt_passenger

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And what would those two be? The PSUs are my guess, although the bare bones parts of PSU1 (Wood Green - Bawtry) necessary to support the 80x fleet south of Doncaster have already been completed, along with Potteric Carr SFC & FS (tacked on to the IEP scope of works rather than PSU1's). PSU2, meanwhile, has a way to go yet AIUI.
Werrington wouldn’t have been finished for May 21 either, although the big civil engineering stuff is done, so that alone would have probably made Dec 21 the first opportunity for changes. I’m also assuming the idea is to wrap up all ECML improvements at once including for example the Middlesbrough service.
 

Bald Rick

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Yes appreciate that but but it was a massive exercise also to procure new rolling stock with modern performance levels. Not as radical perhaps as the WCML Class 390 introduction but a significant change from the old guard LHCS. It would seem to be a waste if there is not a major timetable revision to match with shorter timings, not just increased robustness and reliability.

There is a major timetable reversion - in May 2022. It’s in detailed planning now (and has been for well over a year)

It was going to be Dec 21, but then Kings Cross was deferred a year (from completion at Easter this year to completion at Easter next year) so the timetable got put back to May 22. Then Covid happened and Kings Cross was brought forward as far as possible, ie to the schedule it is now. But the timetable couldn’t be brought back. Just as well, as there’s a lot of work to do.


although the bare bones parts of PSU1 (Wood Green - Bawtry) necessary to support the 80x fleet south of Doncaster have already been completed

Well.... most of it.
 

gimmea50anyday

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And what would those two be? The PSUs are my guess, although the bare bones parts of PSU1 (Wood Green - Bawtry) necessary to support the 80x fleet south of Doncaster have already been completed, along with Potteric Carr SFC & FS (tacked on to the IEP scope of works rather than PSU1's). PSU2, meanwhile, has a way to go yet AIUI.

Hutton Bonville and Marshall Meadows I expect as these two feeders need upgrading before TPE can switch over to Electric power and East Coast will be able to operate
 

59CosG95

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Hutton Bonville and Marshall Meadows I expect as these two feeders need upgrading before TPE can switch over to Electric power and East Coast will be able to operate
Just found this article from an old Modern Railways issue: https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/east-coast-traction-power-supply-uncertainty-continues

A table of the priorities of PSU2's work at GRIP 3 is also present in the article.
1620375372070.png
AFAIK, the presence of SFCs at locations other than Marshall Meadows & Hambleton Junction has been descoped, and I *think* Innerwick has been descoped too.
 

hwl

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What happening with the EuroPhoenix 91 project (or what isn't happening?)
 

HamworthyGoods

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What happening with the EuroPhoenix 91 project (or what isn't happening?)

The EuroPhoenix was a pre-Covid speculative project to try and find demand for these locos abroad. The Pandemic has dried up most railways finances across the world for now.

I don’t think a deal had ever actually been signed.
 

43 302

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According to Richard Clinnick on Twitter, they back in service this coming Tuesday.
One set with 91110 this Tuesday on Leeds. Second set with 91111 on York to Peterborough's from Thursday.
 

XCTurbostar

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One set with 91110 this Tuesday on Leeds. Second set with 91111 on York to Peterborough's from Thursday.
How many sets do LNER still have ready for introduction and do you think we can expect more soon after those two?
 

43 302

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How many sets do LNER still have ready for introduction and do you think we can expect more soon after those two?
Don't know unfortunately. Bit off region for me. If I get anymore solid info I will post of course.
 

DanNCL

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The following services are expected to be 91 worked from Tuesday until further notice because of the Azuma issues:
1A09 06:30 Bradford Forster Square - London Kings Cross
1D09 10:03 London Kings Cross - Leeds
1A30 12:45 Leeds - London Kings Cross
1D20 15:33 London Kings Cross - Leeds
1A46 18:15 Leeds - London Kings Cross
1D33 21:25 London Kings Cross - Leeds

This list may increase as the week goes on, as and when I get more info I will post an update.
 

1D53

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How many sets do LNER still have ready for introduction and do you think we can expect more soon after those two?
There's seven Mark 4 rakes available. One is on works and assuming one is on maintenance would give 5 rakes.
 

DanNCL

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There's seven Mark 4 rakes available. One is on works and assuming one is on maintenance would give 5 rakes.
Of those five rakes four of them are the wrong way round so will need turning via the High Level Bridge unless LNER want issues of people running the length of the platform when the set turns up in reverse formation. Three of those that are the wrong way round are in Doncaster Belmont Yard so will need returning to Neville Hill before preparation for a return to service.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
The following services are expected to be 91 worked from Tuesday until further notice because of the Azuma issues:
1A09 06:30 Bradford Forster Square - London Kings Cross
1D09 10:03 London Kings Cross - Leeds
1A30 12:45 Leeds - London Kings Cross
1D20 15:33 London Kings Cross - Leeds
1A46 18:15 Leeds - London Kings Cross
1D33 21:25 London Kings Cross - Leeds

This list may increase as the week goes on, as and when I get more info I will post an update.

Are any Mk IV + 91s intended to work on the Newcastle/Edinburgh runs at all?
 

1D53

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Of those five rakes four of them are the wrong way round so will need turning via the High Level Bridge unless LNER want issues of people running the length of the platform when the set turns up in reverse formation. Three of those that are the wrong way round are in Doncaster Belmont Yard so will need returning to Neville Hill before preparation for a return to service.
I imagine turning them the right way around isn't a top priority! I believe it's only only a one day prep at NL before they can go back into traffic.

Are any Mk IV + 91s intended to work on the Newcastle/Edinburgh runs at all?
In a word, no.
 

43096

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Are any Mk IV + 91s intended to work on the Newcastle/Edinburgh runs at all?
Isn't there now an issue with crew competence at Newcastle and Edinburgh? Better to keep them on Leeds/York trains where the crews know them and they can be worked back to Neville Hill for maintenance. Hitachi aren't interested in looking after them, hence the move to Neville Hill.
 

DanNCL

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Are any Mk IV + 91s intended to work on the Newcastle/Edinburgh runs at all?
At present the only services confirmed to be getting 91s from Tuesday are those I listed. It is possible for them to work to Newcastle (but not Edinburgh without route conductors), though I'm not presently aware of any plans for them to do so. Four of the sets do however need turning via the High Level Bridge, not clear at the moment when that'll be done and if it'll be done in service or not.

I imagine turning them the right way around isn't a top priority! I believe it's only only a one day prep at NL before they can go back into traffic.
It depends on a number of issues, it is preferred to have the loco on the north end of the set as it makes it much easier to swap the loco quickly if needed, and there's also the issue of last minute dashes down platforms when the train shows up the wrong way round - not too much of a problem just for 1 train but when 4 of them are running like that it's a bit more of an issue.

Isn't there now an issue with crew competence at Newcastle and Edinburgh? Better to keep them on Leeds/York trains where the crews know them and they can be worked back to Neville Hill for maintenance. Hitachi aren't interested in looking after them, hence the move to Neville Hill.
London, Leeds and Doncaster crew sign to Newcastle so the 91s could work to Newcastle without issues. Edinburgh would require a route conductor.

The vast majority of the current diagrams because of the Kings Cross works visit both Edinburgh and Leeds, so without reworking the diagrams (which may or may not be possible) it'll likely be difficult to keep them confined solely to the Leeds route if they end up with more than one set in service at a time.
 
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